Corruptiyahu has been making outrageously divisive statements for years. Here's one from just before an election, back in 2021:
"They have V-15, and we have ‘tsav-8.’”
At the time, this made me so incensed that I wrote a blog post, "Yet Another Reason Why Netanyahu Has to Go," that examined what this statement meant, and why it was so incendiary and offensive:
You are 100% right about Netanyahu. I would push back on discounting Charedi voters. In a democracy, we all count: Charedim, Arabs and Kahanists. Attempting delegitimize voters is what autocrats try to do and works against fighting Netanyahu's autocratic tendencies.
If you are equating 'leftists' with 'people who oppose Bibi,' I'm afraid that I must inform that this is not the case: even many right-wingers no longer support Netanyahu
I don't think any of the people you listed are widely considered "leftist," but that said, I'd certainly consider voting for Feiglin and his party if I lived in Israel.
I still find it hysterical that you want Chareidim more or less dehumanized in all aspects of life here in Israel with the exception of course of tge money you take from the large groups of Chareidim who come to your museum. Its a rather amusing thing to be honest
Huh? The museum is a non-profit. Furthermore, every visitor is subsidized, charedi schools more than most. It's something that's a kindness and benefit from us to them, not from them to me.
Also, I have nothing against charedim on a personal level, the only issue is their societal approach of avoidance of army service and draining of the economy.
Believe me, if you'd do a comparitive audit, you'd see that those charedi "non-profits" are running very differently!
But in any case, there is no actual argument being made here by Dov Kagan. There is no hypocrisy in being against charedim avoiding army service and financially harming the country, and wanting to share Torah/nature with every type of person.
I happen to agree with you here on your main point. It's just a pet peeve of mine that people often consider a non-profit interchangeable with a charitable organization. There are many non-profits where people are making boatloads of money out of it. It just means the company itself doesn't keep profits.
Agreed. I am shocked to see how many people running nonprofits (including ones that are, in theory, charitable organizations) are drawing huge salaries. Not sure how it works in the US, but in Israel at least, there are limits on how much people working in nonprofits can be paid.
But how else does someone with an important cause that can attract philanthropy get things off the ground, unless they themselves are already independently wealthy? I don't think it is possible. And the biggest salaries are actually in the really large non-profits with no specific founder having anything to do with it. I think it is better to go org by org. Any non-profit, large or small, employing the founder or not, can become corrupt.
The frustration by Natan and others stems from the fact that Chareidi society literally contributes nothing practically constructive to the State of Israel. If the problem were just that, it would be bad enough. But worse, they enter politics solely to extract as much money as they can for themselves, and nothing else. Satmar at least the decency not to take money from the government. And in time of war and national need, that attitude is especially sickening. Can you understand that? Hence, the post.
"It emerged as factual that one of the Prime Minister’s aides was receiving payments from Qatar (!)."
First, you link to a piece quoting *opinion*. Second, "factual" means, well, a fact. No one, not even the police, knows what on Earth was going on with those payments. Have you read the facts and allegations? It's a completely bizarre (which probably means accurate story) involving a whole bunch of politicians and businessmen throwing around money for tax reasons or something. You- and Bennett- are clearly trying to make people think that Bibi took a bribe to go easy on Qatar, which *no one* is actually claiming. But a lot of people would like to make it *seem* like that, and you can't fall in line fast enough.
(By the way, Qatar has had a hand in all these protests in Israel since about late October 2023. Some Israel living in the US who is a self-declared "hostage negotiator" on behalf of the "Bill Richardson Center," which gets big bucks from Qatar, has been advising them from then. But not a word about that.)
OK, here's where you really lost me:
"claiming that there is a “Deep State” in Israel (!!!)"
What are those called in England? Inverted commas? In the US they're called "scare quotes." You know, just calling something a "conspiracy theory" doesn't give you license to dismiss it out of hand. No Deep State in Israel? Come on, seriously? At least in the US the people behind the supposed "Deep State" deny it. In Israel they are *open and proud* of it. What do you think "שומרי הסף" *means*?
I'm sorry, a rationalist person doesn't read the extremely biased Time of Israel, buy everything it says, and then make yet another angry post. He thinks about people and their motivations, and how no one is pure and holy, not even the media, the government, the bureaucracy, the courts, the secret police...
Oh, let me change that: "...the secret police (!!!)..."
Unless of course one has a deep-abiding respect for authority of all sorts, especially government authority. And/or one likes articles that confirm his biases.
Regarding Bibi - I disagree. Best quote is from Hillel Fuld: "and there you have it. The firing of the shin bet (head) was not intended to block the investigation into Qatar. The investigation into Qatar was meant to block the firing of the shin bet (head). Its called deep state
Most voters in the recent elections did not vote for the current coalition, according to the Knesset website. So why is the minority in power? Because the Labor Party chair refused a vote-sharing agreement.
This is 100% true, but no voting system is perfect. They original coalition did get almost to 50% (48.38%) and with Ben-Gvir back in and Saar added, they probably have more than 50% of the original votes now. Had the Meretz votes not been lost, you'd still have the centrist + left parties with less than 50% I think assuming that Hadash–Ta'al is not part of any govt. So you might well have simply had another failed election. The issues is not that the election was so close that the threshold came into play. The issue is a PM trying to save his skin instead of the country and a coalition trying to make major constitutional changes with a slim partisan majority instead of through a supermajority consensus decision making process.
Israel should go to elections. Let Bibi win or lose, that's the best measure of popular will.
But to suggest that the Prime Minister can't fire his own appointee is ANTI-democratic. More so when there is an Attorney General responsive to the judiciary who can overrule the elected government with no legal basis other than an action is "unreasonable".
What was his reason for firing him now, a year and a half after Oct 7? When you fire someone in Israel, you have to have a reason - all the more so with a position like this. Did it have anything to do with the fact that evidence just came up that Qatar was paying Bibi's aides, and that the Shin Bet was investigating this? Is it something that the Shin Bet should NOT investigate? Does anyone think that Bibi would hire a replacement that would continue the investigation?
No, we know now it had nothing to do with whatever this Qatar thing is supposed to be about. You're buying into propaganda because it fits your point of view, that's increasingly obvious.
Why should the country go to a snap election if the elected Knesset and parties are supporting a government which is able to fill out its statutory term?
Here we go again....Alas, I couldn't agree with you less...Your flaming anti-Bibi posts are so irrational (pun intended) that it's mind boggling. They contain so many falsehoods and leftist propaganda, that I shudder to think where you can get your information from.
I will address one issue -
"according to most polls, Bibi would dramatically lose in a new election...then certainly the vast majority do not support Bibi. They do not support him in his paying charedim to be exempt from both military service and from supporting the economy, and they do not support him in his firing and undermining of every person and state institution who challenges or investigates him".
Out of respect, I will let the one and only Nigel Hawthorne OBM to repond -
Unfortunately, although the answer was indeed clear, simple, and straightforward, there is some difficulty in justifiably assigning to it the fourth of the epithets you applied to the statement, inasmuch as the precise correlation between the information you communicated and the facts, insofar as they can be determined and demonstrated, is such as to cause epistemological problems, of sufficient magnitude as to lay upon the logical and semantic resources of the English language a heavier burden than they can reasonably be expected to bear...
I think you should stick to your exposes on Chareidi ideology and on biblical wildlife. A person should always focus on what they’re good at, understand and do well. One of the main problems of modern academia in general is that it generally ignores the Peter Principle - but in ways that don’t always come across nearly as obvious as in hierarchal corporate or public organizations. Give someone a doctorate in something and they suddenly become an “expert” in everything. And they also suddenly become very qualified administrators, board directors, fundraisers, political scientists, philosophers and more.
My gut instinct is to respond with - I am happy that I convinced you, but I know your comment was sarcastic...It saddens me that, in this regard (and in this regard only !!), you have succumbed to the irrational leftist propaganda...
Or, I've seen the arguments and claims and actions of both sides, and I've drawn conclusions accordingly. It's not as though you presented any actual arguments or evidence.
Bibi writes a post to help rile up his supporters against state institutions and much of the population, in the name of "togetherness." I presented a rational argument that this is not how a prime minister leading his people to war brings a nation together.
Bibi describes himself as representing the will of the majority. I pointed out that surveys show this is not true.
Halachik quesation - Pesach and locust related question - If as an ashkenzim, I can rely on Teimani tradition for locusts, may I rely on Teimani tradition regarding soft matza?
Soft matza is not Teimani, all non-Ashkenazim have it, and even Ashkenazim had it until a couple of centuries ago. General opinion is that Ashkenazim can eat it.
Teimanim add salt to their matza and put corn oil on the griddle. The former is a no-no to anyone not from Yemen, and the latter is certainly a no-no to Ashkenazim.
Rav Schachter put out a letter that Ashkenazim can eat soft matzah - and that is implicit in the Mishna Berurah who brings the limitation of a tefach for the thickness of a matzah - a hard matzah even a quarter of an inch thick would be inedible.
I would think that the people who run a Deep State would find a way to exempt their constituents from serving and make sure to get special payments from the taxes collected.
Half "Gedolim" saying to vote, but unfortunately Lakewood made an assifa NOT to vote. That's what the now deleted article was decrying - the out of touch of those "Gedolim". Lakewood has way more serious problems, but THIS is what they were busy with. Hundreds of comments were agreeing with the article! Certainly exists a significant segment that is willing to challenge and not "accept" these Gedolim.
With all due respect, if Netanyahu can fire the head of the Shabak (!) and continue with his incredibly divisive 'judicial reform' in the middle of a war, we can certainly handle new elections -- especially since the majority of Israelis want elections and / or for Netanyahu to resign
But they don’t. And many if not most work in an “underground” economy. Just like….
And many who work have many more children than charedim do as they violate Israel’s polygamy statutes, resulting in social welfare and transfer payments to an entire subset of the “non-loyal” population which is probably in excess of you know who’s burden on society. You really only undermine yourself with responses like this.
Corruptiyahu has been making outrageously divisive statements for years. Here's one from just before an election, back in 2021:
"They have V-15, and we have ‘tsav-8.’”
At the time, this made me so incensed that I wrote a blog post, "Yet Another Reason Why Netanyahu Has to Go," that examined what this statement meant, and why it was so incendiary and offensive:
https://tinyurl.com/bdeu5w5k
You are 100% right about Netanyahu. I would push back on discounting Charedi voters. In a democracy, we all count: Charedim, Arabs and Kahanists. Attempting delegitimize voters is what autocrats try to do and works against fighting Netanyahu's autocratic tendencies.
"But if what we are counting are loyal Israeli citizens, people who care about the country’s wellbeing"
Lol. You can't simultaneously criticize Bibi for only appealing to a fraction of the populace excluding the rest and do the same yourself.
Bibi will tell you those leftists who oppose him are also disloyal citizens.
If you are equating 'leftists' with 'people who oppose Bibi,' I'm afraid that I must inform that this is not the case: even many right-wingers no longer support Netanyahu
Alas, for Bibi loyalists, anyone who opposes Bibi is *by definition* a Leftist.
Well, if you would vote for Ganz, Lapid or Bennet instead of Feiglin or Ben-Gvir, then you're a leftist. Who would you vote for?
None of those are leftists - perhaps centrists. What left really remains in Israel?
And Aharon Barack is an unbiased judge, ok.
I don't think any of the people you listed are widely considered "leftist," but that said, I'd certainly consider voting for Feiglin and his party if I lived in Israel.
I still find it hysterical that you want Chareidim more or less dehumanized in all aspects of life here in Israel with the exception of course of tge money you take from the large groups of Chareidim who come to your museum. Its a rather amusing thing to be honest
Huh? The museum is a non-profit. Furthermore, every visitor is subsidized, charedi schools more than most. It's something that's a kindness and benefit from us to them, not from them to me.
Also, I have nothing against charedim on a personal level, the only issue is their societal approach of avoidance of army service and draining of the economy.
Really? Is running non-for-profit and earning income from it really much different than how many charedi “non-for-profits” are run?
Believe me, if you'd do a comparitive audit, you'd see that those charedi "non-profits" are running very differently!
But in any case, there is no actual argument being made here by Dov Kagan. There is no hypocrisy in being against charedim avoiding army service and financially harming the country, and wanting to share Torah/nature with every type of person.
I happen to agree with you here on your main point. It's just a pet peeve of mine that people often consider a non-profit interchangeable with a charitable organization. There are many non-profits where people are making boatloads of money out of it. It just means the company itself doesn't keep profits.
Agreed. I am shocked to see how many people running nonprofits (including ones that are, in theory, charitable organizations) are drawing huge salaries. Not sure how it works in the US, but in Israel at least, there are limits on how much people working in nonprofits can be paid.
I’m not a big fan of people setting up non-for-profits and then being engaged by the non-for-profit. In any field.
But how else does someone with an important cause that can attract philanthropy get things off the ground, unless they themselves are already independently wealthy? I don't think it is possible. And the biggest salaries are actually in the really large non-profits with no specific founder having anything to do with it. I think it is better to go org by org. Any non-profit, large or small, employing the founder or not, can become corrupt.
Dehumanized? How about 'contributing to the society in which they live,' or at the very least, nit bite the hand that literally feeds them.
The frustration by Natan and others stems from the fact that Chareidi society literally contributes nothing practically constructive to the State of Israel. If the problem were just that, it would be bad enough. But worse, they enter politics solely to extract as much money as they can for themselves, and nothing else. Satmar at least the decency not to take money from the government. And in time of war and national need, that attitude is especially sickening. Can you understand that? Hence, the post.
Let's not twist language, shall we?
"It emerged as factual that one of the Prime Minister’s aides was receiving payments from Qatar (!)."
First, you link to a piece quoting *opinion*. Second, "factual" means, well, a fact. No one, not even the police, knows what on Earth was going on with those payments. Have you read the facts and allegations? It's a completely bizarre (which probably means accurate story) involving a whole bunch of politicians and businessmen throwing around money for tax reasons or something. You- and Bennett- are clearly trying to make people think that Bibi took a bribe to go easy on Qatar, which *no one* is actually claiming. But a lot of people would like to make it *seem* like that, and you can't fall in line fast enough.
(By the way, Qatar has had a hand in all these protests in Israel since about late October 2023. Some Israel living in the US who is a self-declared "hostage negotiator" on behalf of the "Bill Richardson Center," which gets big bucks from Qatar, has been advising them from then. But not a word about that.)
OK, here's where you really lost me:
"claiming that there is a “Deep State” in Israel (!!!)"
What are those called in England? Inverted commas? In the US they're called "scare quotes." You know, just calling something a "conspiracy theory" doesn't give you license to dismiss it out of hand. No Deep State in Israel? Come on, seriously? At least in the US the people behind the supposed "Deep State" deny it. In Israel they are *open and proud* of it. What do you think "שומרי הסף" *means*?
I'm sorry, a rationalist person doesn't read the extremely biased Time of Israel, buy everything it says, and then make yet another angry post. He thinks about people and their motivations, and how no one is pure and holy, not even the media, the government, the bureaucracy, the courts, the secret police...
Oh, let me change that: "...the secret police (!!!)..."
Unless of course one has a deep-abiding respect for authority of all sorts, especially government authority. And/or one likes articles that confirm his biases.
Regarding Bibi - I disagree. Best quote is from Hillel Fuld: "and there you have it. The firing of the shin bet (head) was not intended to block the investigation into Qatar. The investigation into Qatar was meant to block the firing of the shin bet (head). Its called deep state
Thank you for using the term "most" chareidim, a welcome improvement
Most voters in the recent elections did not vote for the current coalition, according to the Knesset website. So why is the minority in power? Because the Labor Party chair refused a vote-sharing agreement.
This is 100% true, but no voting system is perfect. They original coalition did get almost to 50% (48.38%) and with Ben-Gvir back in and Saar added, they probably have more than 50% of the original votes now. Had the Meretz votes not been lost, you'd still have the centrist + left parties with less than 50% I think assuming that Hadash–Ta'al is not part of any govt. So you might well have simply had another failed election. The issues is not that the election was so close that the threshold came into play. The issue is a PM trying to save his skin instead of the country and a coalition trying to make major constitutional changes with a slim partisan majority instead of through a supermajority consensus decision making process.
Israel should go to elections. Let Bibi win or lose, that's the best measure of popular will.
But to suggest that the Prime Minister can't fire his own appointee is ANTI-democratic. More so when there is an Attorney General responsive to the judiciary who can overrule the elected government with no legal basis other than an action is "unreasonable".
What was his reason for firing him now, a year and a half after Oct 7? When you fire someone in Israel, you have to have a reason - all the more so with a position like this. Did it have anything to do with the fact that evidence just came up that Qatar was paying Bibi's aides, and that the Shin Bet was investigating this? Is it something that the Shin Bet should NOT investigate? Does anyone think that Bibi would hire a replacement that would continue the investigation?
No, we know now it had nothing to do with whatever this Qatar thing is supposed to be about. You're buying into propaganda because it fits your point of view, that's increasingly obvious.
Why should the country go to a snap election if the elected Knesset and parties are supporting a government which is able to fill out its statutory term?
Here we go again....Alas, I couldn't agree with you less...Your flaming anti-Bibi posts are so irrational (pun intended) that it's mind boggling. They contain so many falsehoods and leftist propaganda, that I shudder to think where you can get your information from.
I will address one issue -
"according to most polls, Bibi would dramatically lose in a new election...then certainly the vast majority do not support Bibi. They do not support him in his paying charedim to be exempt from both military service and from supporting the economy, and they do not support him in his firing and undermining of every person and state institution who challenges or investigates him".
Out of respect, I will let the one and only Nigel Hawthorne OBM to repond -
Unfortunately, although the answer was indeed clear, simple, and straightforward, there is some difficulty in justifiably assigning to it the fourth of the epithets you applied to the statement, inasmuch as the precise correlation between the information you communicated and the facts, insofar as they can be determined and demonstrated, is such as to cause epistemological problems, of sufficient magnitude as to lay upon the logical and semantic resources of the English language a heavier burden than they can reasonably be expected to bear...
Well then, if you say that my posts contain leftist propaganda, clearly I was mistaken and I retract everything. Thank you for convincing me!
I think you should stick to your exposes on Chareidi ideology and on biblical wildlife. A person should always focus on what they’re good at, understand and do well. One of the main problems of modern academia in general is that it generally ignores the Peter Principle - but in ways that don’t always come across nearly as obvious as in hierarchal corporate or public organizations. Give someone a doctorate in something and they suddenly become an “expert” in everything. And they also suddenly become very qualified administrators, board directors, fundraisers, political scientists, philosophers and more.
I'm not remotely presenting myself as having any particular credibility or authority due to my doctorate. It was in Jewish history, not politics.
But does publicly commenting on those types of things help or hurt your credibility on the issues of which you are knowledgeable?
It harms it. And it's harmful to me in other ways, too. But, like many people here, I'm beyond frustrated at the situation.
Need to control your frustration. Especially if acting on it gets in the way of your other worthy endeavors.
Cheers!
"כי האדם כשישליך מעל פניו השקר ויקיים האמת ויכריענו לאמיתו ויחזור בו מדעתו כשיתבאר לו הפכה אין ספק כי קדוש הוא"
My gut instinct is to respond with - I am happy that I convinced you, but I know your comment was sarcastic...It saddens me that, in this regard (and in this regard only !!), you have succumbed to the irrational leftist propaganda...
Or, I've seen the arguments and claims and actions of both sides, and I've drawn conclusions accordingly. It's not as though you presented any actual arguments or evidence.
neither have you...byw, what consituted an evidence ? an article ? in which newspaper ?
Bibi writes a post to help rile up his supporters against state institutions and much of the population, in the name of "togetherness." I presented a rational argument that this is not how a prime minister leading his people to war brings a nation together.
Bibi describes himself as representing the will of the majority. I pointed out that surveys show this is not true.
Au contraire mon ami. ALL polls show that the majority sides with Bibi...
Shalom Rav. Which Rav or Rabbanut gives their hechsher to the KLP locusts?
Kol tuv,
Aharon
???
Halachik quesation - Pesach and locust related question - If as an ashkenzim, I can rely on Teimani tradition for locusts, may I rely on Teimani tradition regarding soft matza?
Soft matza is not Teimani, all non-Ashkenazim have it, and even Ashkenazim had it until a couple of centuries ago. General opinion is that Ashkenazim can eat it.
Teimanim add salt to their matza and put corn oil on the griddle. The former is a no-no to anyone not from Yemen, and the latter is certainly a no-no to Ashkenazim.
Rav Schachter put out a letter that Ashkenazim can eat soft matzah - and that is implicit in the Mishna Berurah who brings the limitation of a tefach for the thickness of a matzah - a hard matzah even a quarter of an inch thick would be inedible.
I would think that the people who run a Deep State would find a way to exempt their constituents from serving and make sure to get special payments from the taxes collected.
Natan, THIS: https://vinnews.com/2025/03/20/editorial-lakewood-is-in-crisis-but-our-leadership-is-busy-yelling-about-shtusim/
is the topic of the hour, where are you?
Fascinating. Were the Gedolim telling them to vote in the WZO election or not to vote?
Half "Gedolim" saying to vote, but unfortunately Lakewood made an assifa NOT to vote. That's what the now deleted article was decrying - the out of touch of those "Gedolim". Lakewood has way more serious problems, but THIS is what they were busy with. Hundreds of comments were agreeing with the article! Certainly exists a significant segment that is willing to challenge and not "accept" these Gedolim.
The ones saying to vote were made into Gedolim recently by Eretz Hakodesh and others who support voting.
I don't think an election in the middle of a war is wise.
With all due respect, if Netanyahu can fire the head of the Shabak (!) and continue with his incredibly divisive 'judicial reform' in the middle of a war, we can certainly handle new elections -- especially since the majority of Israelis want elections and / or for Netanyahu to resign
Um, no. There's a world of difference between the two, if only the Left would stop with their perpetual outrage and various undemocratic attempts.
If the war continues for another year and a half until the next scheduled election in October 2026, should that election be canceled?
depends how long the war lasts
So you’d take away the vote from the Arabs?
I think they should do sherut leumi. And they already try to work for a living.
But they don’t. And many if not most work in an “underground” economy. Just like….
And many who work have many more children than charedim do as they violate Israel’s polygamy statutes, resulting in social welfare and transfer payments to an entire subset of the “non-loyal” population which is probably in excess of you know who’s burden on society. You really only undermine yourself with responses like this.
The Arab unemployment rate is huge.
And why do they get to do sherut leumi?