"Being a religious Jew in the US or UK is the same as what being a religious Jew has been about for the past two thousand years. It’s primarily about learning Torah and keeping the halachos that are listed in the Shulchan Aruch/ Mishnah Berura." No! It is not about "learning Torah and keeping the halachos ...". It is about how you apply these teachings to your relations with your fellow men, your fellow Jews, and your country. When your only relationship with those outside your study hall is to lead a parasitic lifestyle and milk the system for all it is worth and demonstrate with reckless abandon in place of exhibiting civic responsibility, then every minute you spend learning is not a mitzvah, it is hilul HaShem.
I hesitate to comment, because I am not there physically, and because I am not sufficiently familiar with the internal political scene. Personally, if I were younger and fit to serve, I would feel ashamed not to serve in whatever capacity I could be most useful. Thank you for speaking out! Chag Pesach Sameach!
"One person wrote to me that the only reason he has been able to accept this painful truth is that he was primed for it by struggling with the ban on my books, twenty years ago."
Rav Slifkin, I doubt that you are referring to me on this point, although I am one of them, but I wrote to you a few years ago. So I doubt there is "one person".
Flashback: I was on Mea She'arim when your books were sold there, and also when those crazy pashkevilim went up, banning those same books.
In the following months, I was also reading Rabbi Gil Student's blog Hirhurim (now Torah Musings) where the issues were discussed thoroughly, and where others like myself were asking, "How can we trust the Gedolim now?!" The very notion of papal-infallibility-sh "da`as Torah" was crumbling in front of our eyes, as English speakers with a basic education and knowledge of basic science and literacy. We just could not understand how these rabbanim could make such decrees, without justification.
I would bet that there were many of us, and still are. Now consider the collective weight of everyone who has become cynical and mistrusting of rabbinic leadership ever since that time, whether it be their support of a withdrawal from Gush Katif, a ban on certain technological devices, or the absolute hatred of the IDF that they have demonstrated on several occasions: all of this well before 7 October 2023.
And consider that some of us were ba`alei teshuva 20 years ago, learning and working in yeshivot such as Ohr Somayach and Aish HaTorah: trying to promote the wonders of Judaism to returnees, while being bombarded by doubts such as these.
I thought of this when reading a letter some charedi fellow sent to Harry Maryles' blog "justifying" his and his sons' lack of service. The arguments were offensive nonsense, of course, but even more offensive was the fact that here I and our son had just gotten back for a memorial to a graduate of his school who fell. Every non-charedi Israeli school and shul has a plaque listing their fallen. No charedi school or shul does. It's as simple as that.
You refer to people who think "that Torah and halacha is (sic) the essence and epitome of Judaism." Do you disagree with that? Or do you agree but add that settling the land, which is part of Torah and halacha, includes maintaining an economy, army, etc.? Or are these separate values outside of Torah? I suspect you agree but I was troubled by how you expressed this point. You seem to be allowing yourself to get fed up with Torah in general.
I can't say that such claims are always false, but I know several soldiers in chareidi units and their experience is completely the opposite. The army strongly enforces the chareidi rules, which includes not be allowed to walk into mixed areas (!), and in some units even wearing a white shirt (!). They are trying really hard to maintain a strong image of being chareidi friendly to be more attractive for the chareidi community.
The chareidi sources which quote anecdotes real or not about the ay not being accomodating to chareidim to create an image which is very far from the reality. I'm not saying none of these stories are true, but they are definitely not presenting an honest picture.
You didn't answer my question but then I looked back at your other comment and saw that you had answered it. My question was how do you know. You previously answered/stated that you “know several soldiers in chareidi units and their experience is completely the opposite.” That's good to hear, although I don't know how many stories that is. The part of the article quoting the father is also first-hand information (or actually from his son) so that's reliable. Later the article says, “It should be noted that the above story is not an isolated one, with many Chareidi and Dati Leumi soldiers telling similar stories”. We would need to track down the authenticity of the other stories. It does seem to me however that one story, especially that they're being stonewalled, is already too much. Kudos to those in other units who keep their promises (except that that's a low standard; OTOH probably lots of effort went into being able to make the promise), but those who don't, seem to fail basic decency, not to mention obedience of the law. And if they won't earn the trust of the Chareidi public, they have no one to blame other than themselves.
Several years ago, Rav Aharon Lopiansky wrote that “the robbing of our youths’ formative years as a ben Torah would be a price that we could not pay.” In response, Rabbi Yitzchak Adlerstein responded pithily, “Agreed. But how do we ask other, reluctant Israelis to pay a different price so that we don’t have to pay ours?”
There is a letter from the Steipler ztz"l where he wrote to someone about to enter the IDF that whether or not a soldier is spiritually hurt by his service depends only on how he spends his free time while serving.
A great blog post, as always. However, how can we expect American Jews to be critical of chareidi refusal to serve in the army, when they too refuse to serve in the army?
I tried back when I was of age to serve. Unfortunately the same medical issues that got me rejected from the US military applied to the IDF, and my offer was declined
Israeli Charedim remind me of all the “actively dating” American “NJGs” who pride themselves about keeping kashrut and shabbos, while dressing revealingly, if not provocatively, and partaking in all the “strong and independent” indecencies that they believe they’re entitled to. Female modesty and importance of virginity are just archaic patriarchal impositions, after all, and we’re “past it now.”
The Gedolim are opposed to Chareidim joining the army because of the risk of the Bachurim becoming assimilated with the non-religious soldiers, being exposed to female soldiers, and going off the derech. This seems to be a common occurrence with the religious Zionists who go to the army.
Not all American Jews think the way you describe. There is a huge difference between modern orthodox communities in the US and more Yeshivish communities.
The end of the following should probably read: "or that there is such a thing as spontaneous generation."
"Having been taught their whole lives that Torah is wisdom and therefore that Gedolim are wise, many people just couldn’t wrap their heads around the idea that the Gedolim were saying that it’s heretical to believe that there was an age of dinosaurs or that there is no such thing as spontaneous generation."
I don't have time to refute everything you write and quote below, but in brief:
1- The article you quote below does not come from what one can consider a reliable source, and it is not clear if his statistics are accurate. For instance, even if the number of injured is correct, "injured" is not the same as "maimed".
2- The war was not only being fought against Hamas in Gaza, but against Hezbollah as well, also requiring hundreds of thousands of soldiers, and also resulting in many casualties on our side.
2- While the Dati community has paid a disproportionate price, in terms of dead, wounded, and families emotionally and economically stressed by hundreds of days of Miluim, we have not been fighting alone. For example, Gadi Eisenkot lost both a son and a nephew. The Dati community is simply mature enough to understand that even though the current leadership is deeply flawed, that doesn't give us the right to abdicate our responsibility. As horrible as the events of Oct 7th were, would it have been better for our sons to sit home and allow Hamas to advance way beyond the "Otef" into central Israel?
"Being a religious Jew in the US or UK is the same as what being a religious Jew has been about for the past two thousand years. It’s primarily about learning Torah and keeping the halachos that are listed in the Shulchan Aruch/ Mishnah Berura." No! It is not about "learning Torah and keeping the halachos ...". It is about how you apply these teachings to your relations with your fellow men, your fellow Jews, and your country. When your only relationship with those outside your study hall is to lead a parasitic lifestyle and milk the system for all it is worth and demonstrate with reckless abandon in place of exhibiting civic responsibility, then every minute you spend learning is not a mitzvah, it is hilul HaShem.
BS"D
I hesitate to comment, because I am not there physically, and because I am not sufficiently familiar with the internal political scene. Personally, if I were younger and fit to serve, I would feel ashamed not to serve in whatever capacity I could be most useful. Thank you for speaking out! Chag Pesach Sameach!
I give a different theory as to the lack of leadership here:
https://open.substack.com/pub/daastorah/p/the-true-scandal-of-the-wzo-affair?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=33pit
"One person wrote to me that the only reason he has been able to accept this painful truth is that he was primed for it by struggling with the ban on my books, twenty years ago."
Rav Slifkin, I doubt that you are referring to me on this point, although I am one of them, but I wrote to you a few years ago. So I doubt there is "one person".
Flashback: I was on Mea She'arim when your books were sold there, and also when those crazy pashkevilim went up, banning those same books.
In the following months, I was also reading Rabbi Gil Student's blog Hirhurim (now Torah Musings) where the issues were discussed thoroughly, and where others like myself were asking, "How can we trust the Gedolim now?!" The very notion of papal-infallibility-sh "da`as Torah" was crumbling in front of our eyes, as English speakers with a basic education and knowledge of basic science and literacy. We just could not understand how these rabbanim could make such decrees, without justification.
I would bet that there were many of us, and still are. Now consider the collective weight of everyone who has become cynical and mistrusting of rabbinic leadership ever since that time, whether it be their support of a withdrawal from Gush Katif, a ban on certain technological devices, or the absolute hatred of the IDF that they have demonstrated on several occasions: all of this well before 7 October 2023.
And consider that some of us were ba`alei teshuva 20 years ago, learning and working in yeshivot such as Ohr Somayach and Aish HaTorah: trying to promote the wonders of Judaism to returnees, while being bombarded by doubts such as these.
Your "One person" example is a minute sample.
I thought of this when reading a letter some charedi fellow sent to Harry Maryles' blog "justifying" his and his sons' lack of service. The arguments were offensive nonsense, of course, but even more offensive was the fact that here I and our son had just gotten back for a memorial to a graduate of his school who fell. Every non-charedi Israeli school and shul has a plaque listing their fallen. No charedi school or shul does. It's as simple as that.
You refer to people who think "that Torah and halacha is (sic) the essence and epitome of Judaism." Do you disagree with that? Or do you agree but add that settling the land, which is part of Torah and halacha, includes maintaining an economy, army, etc.? Or are these separate values outside of Torah? I suspect you agree but I was troubled by how you expressed this point. You seem to be allowing yourself to get fed up with Torah in general.
R Natan, how would you respond to this?
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/2382839/father-whose-son-enlisted-fumes-idf-wants-chareidim-they-want-to-destroy-them.html
I can't say that such claims are always false, but I know several soldiers in chareidi units and their experience is completely the opposite. The army strongly enforces the chareidi rules, which includes not be allowed to walk into mixed areas (!), and in some units even wearing a white shirt (!). They are trying really hard to maintain a strong image of being chareidi friendly to be more attractive for the chareidi community.
I think it depends on which units.
Could be but these slanted perspectives that only look for downsides are pure propaganda and need to go.
Which ones are slanted propaganda? If you know, how do you know?
The chareidi sources which quote anecdotes real or not about the ay not being accomodating to chareidim to create an image which is very far from the reality. I'm not saying none of these stories are true, but they are definitely not presenting an honest picture.
You didn't answer my question but then I looked back at your other comment and saw that you had answered it. My question was how do you know. You previously answered/stated that you “know several soldiers in chareidi units and their experience is completely the opposite.” That's good to hear, although I don't know how many stories that is. The part of the article quoting the father is also first-hand information (or actually from his son) so that's reliable. Later the article says, “It should be noted that the above story is not an isolated one, with many Chareidi and Dati Leumi soldiers telling similar stories”. We would need to track down the authenticity of the other stories. It does seem to me however that one story, especially that they're being stonewalled, is already too much. Kudos to those in other units who keep their promises (except that that's a low standard; OTOH probably lots of effort went into being able to make the promise), but those who don't, seem to fail basic decency, not to mention obedience of the law. And if they won't earn the trust of the Chareidi public, they have no one to blame other than themselves.
as someone who served it is a load of BS.
If someone wants to be frum they will be.
If they don't, they wont.
We do not want to acknowledge that there are chareidim who are only frum because of societal pressure and not because they are believers.
If someone's kids go off the derech they were going to anyway.
Not if they couldn't get the societal pressures removed. The question is if someone is frum against their will is that a good thing
I disagree with the question.
Once you establish that there is no bogeyman and the army is not out to get chareidim then there is an obligation to serve.
Anything else is just obfuscating the issue.
If you have a chiyuv to do something it doesn't go away because you might stray while doing it.
As an aside,
The IDF created units where chareidim will never share a base with a female.
Part of life includes interacting with people of the opposite gender on a daily basis.
Doctors, mechanics and cashiers are a part of that fabric.
When chareidim say they are worried what they really mean is that they don't believe that their chinuch is strong.
We are infantilizing whole generations and basically saying that we do not trust them not to go off.
It is a very brittle yidishkeit.
"If you have a chiyuv to do something it doesn't go away because you might stray while doing it."
That's the whole argument.
Several years ago, Rav Aharon Lopiansky wrote that “the robbing of our youths’ formative years as a ben Torah would be a price that we could not pay.” In response, Rabbi Yitzchak Adlerstein responded pithily, “Agreed. But how do we ask other, reluctant Israelis to pay a different price so that we don’t have to pay ours?”
There is a letter from the Steipler ztz"l where he wrote to someone about to enter the IDF that whether or not a soldier is spiritually hurt by his service depends only on how he spends his free time while serving.
So does RYA agree or not? And who is his "we"?
Its not about asking others. If those other Israelis wanted to enlist in such a yeshiva, who is stopping them?
A great blog post, as always. However, how can we expect American Jews to be critical of chareidi refusal to serve in the army, when they too refuse to serve in the army?
האחיכם יבואו למלחמה ואתם תשבו פה?
I tried back when I was of age to serve. Unfortunately the same medical issues that got me rejected from the US military applied to the IDF, and my offer was declined
He probably means the Israeli army. If there is a chiyuv to serve, it applies to all Jews. (So R' Lichtenstein, among others.)
And of course a lack of conscription in the US doesn't mean people shouldn't serve in the US military either.
How is conscription in the US relevant to this discussion?
Israeli Charedim remind me of all the “actively dating” American “NJGs” who pride themselves about keeping kashrut and shabbos, while dressing revealingly, if not provocatively, and partaking in all the “strong and independent” indecencies that they believe they’re entitled to. Female modesty and importance of virginity are just archaic patriarchal impositions, after all, and we’re “past it now.”
What is an NJG? A New Jersey Girl?
The Gedolim are opposed to Chareidim joining the army because of the risk of the Bachurim becoming assimilated with the non-religious soldiers, being exposed to female soldiers, and going off the derech. This seems to be a common occurrence with the religious Zionists who go to the army.
That's not actually their reason, but even if it was their reason, it's invalid, for several reasons discussed here: https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-religious-risks-of-idf-service
Are they really Talmudists? It seems more they are revanchists, or scolds fighting a battle against modern society.
Worse, they’re ignorant, empty-headed talmudists,
Totally agree Rabbi! A friend from the Golan Heights
Cool, where in the Golan do you live?
Katzrin
"the charedi community in Israel represents a poisonous form of Judaism that is ultimately an existential threat to the nation."
Substitute "Jewish" for "charedi", and "humanity" for "Judaism" ...
Not all American Jews think the way you describe. There is a huge difference between modern orthodox communities in the US and more Yeshivish communities.
The OU has always had a somewhat more charedi leadership than its membership. (The Young Israel even more so, on both ends.)
The end of the following should probably read: "or that there is such a thing as spontaneous generation."
"Having been taught their whole lives that Torah is wisdom and therefore that Gedolim are wise, many people just couldn’t wrap their heads around the idea that the Gedolim were saying that it’s heretical to believe that there was an age of dinosaurs or that there is no such thing as spontaneous generation."
I'm pretty sure it's correct as is. The gedolim weren't saying that it's heretical to believe in spontaneous generation.
I don't have time to refute everything you write and quote below, but in brief:
1- The article you quote below does not come from what one can consider a reliable source, and it is not clear if his statistics are accurate. For instance, even if the number of injured is correct, "injured" is not the same as "maimed".
2- The war was not only being fought against Hamas in Gaza, but against Hezbollah as well, also requiring hundreds of thousands of soldiers, and also resulting in many casualties on our side.
2- While the Dati community has paid a disproportionate price, in terms of dead, wounded, and families emotionally and economically stressed by hundreds of days of Miluim, we have not been fighting alone. For example, Gadi Eisenkot lost both a son and a nephew. The Dati community is simply mature enough to understand that even though the current leadership is deeply flawed, that doesn't give us the right to abdicate our responsibility. As horrible as the events of Oct 7th were, would it have been better for our sons to sit home and allow Hamas to advance way beyond the "Otef" into central Israel?
ChanaRachel I'm going to ban this guy. Dangerous lunatic.