As the mother of a reservist who has seen way too much duty I worry very much about the consequences of this continuing war. Your writing speaks volumes about the lack of compassion, self centered and entitlement fostered in some parts of the Ultra Orthodox community. Many Israelis both study and learn, to their individual capacities as well as serving to protect our country and contributing to the general welfare instead of exploiting the benefits of living in Israel. They are causing so much harm to our unity and security that their very existence has become a burden rather than the blessing it was meant to be.
To be clear, the real enemy is Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran, not the Charedim. I think we should constantly be making that often forgotten fact clear along with our criticisms.
Sensitive haredim, unlike you, are well aware of the irreparable damage to Jewish unity by the blanket exemption currently given to young haredi males, regardless of their history or potential in learning.
Sorry dude, not even close. No one honest thinks that people opposing drafts for ideological reasons are sympathetic to the enemy. That's not the issue and you know it. I disagree with the Charedi approach to the war but they are not traitors to Iran. It's disgusting to insinuate such even if you hate their policies.
The insinuation comes to mind unbidden. And if you think it's "not nice" for you, you should think how it must be for us. We are the ones betrayed here. Yehuda had the character to admit it, but haredi society never will. Your Torah will forever remain sullied.
I've made this comment before. If you are going to smear approximately 1 million Torah observant people as silly and selfish, it is clear that you simply do not understand their position (even if you can parrot 1 or 2 sentences that sound like it). You have many preconceived notions that Charedim see differently, and since the Charedi position does not jive with your preconceived notions that you you just assume that Charedim are off their rockers.
I'm not "parroting" anything. I have lived here in Israel since 1983, when I literally did not know anyone in the entire country. Came to study for a year, and basically stayed. Married, had a family, studied nursing in Hebrew. Prepped for the nursing boards when my husband was in miluim and I took care of the 2 toddlers on my own. Worked a lot, endured pregnancies, miluim, and a lot of financial hardship. I sent 2 sons to kravi, one of whom is serving in the North right now, leaving his wife at home with their own toddlers.
I have haredi in-laws, whom I love and respect, including 3 Israeli sons-in-law who left the haredi world for reasons of their own, but still love and respect their families and where they came from. Most of my contact with the haredi world, though, has been from attending lots and lots of shiurim with haredi women over the years, people who represent the best of your community, and the ones who keep it afloat. I've had long conversations over the years with haredim on IDF service, some of whom were conflicted on the topic, others who were not.
I "parrot" nothing. My opinions are my own, and I have earned them.
To observe the Torah does not preclude army service in any rational sense. I understand the very legitimate concerns that Charedim have about their young men being exposed to a way of life that includes many practices that are not consistent with their beliefs BUT we’re talking about protecting the Jewish homeland and it is a collective responsibility. How one chooses to carry out one’s duties is different from refusing to recognize or serving while expecting others to carry the dangerous and necessary responsibilities which are part of life as a Jew. This is the mandate we accepted at Har Sinai and it was accepted without qualifications.
Jerry (why do you hide behind a silly name, ashamed to use your real name?)
Can you explain the difference between the Ayatollah and this so called Rabbi. The Ayatollah desires to kill every single last Jew in Israel and then this Rabbi wants to let him do it.
This Rabbi is promoting not to go into the army to defend against this Ayatollah. Everyone can give some excuse not to go. Or what happens when thousands decide to say Tehilim in lieu of army service. How do we pick them up for some jail and not Yeshiva boys. This Rabbi does not have the monopoly on excuses not to go. In other word this Rabbi is okay with a total volunteer army, which basically means Israel is lost. Kindly explain then - what is the difference between of the Ayatollah and this Rabbi.
You may disagree that Torah doesn't protect like they say, but they aren't traitors just because they like a different form of ammunition better. I'm not sure why we need to have this conversation in the first place though - why can't we just argue the points instead of trying to argue if they are even worse than that? If they are wrong in their ideology, that's a great argument to make. Saying that since they are wrong they also fall under the category of traitors and enemies of the state is highly arguable and probably pointless and silly, especially since we need to argue about the first point alone.
Before Oct 7, a lot of smart people thought we could manage with a "small smart" professional army. That's clearly no longer the case, if it ever was.
When the reality on the ground changes, you have to change plans accordingly. Like maintaining a society where almost all men learn full time and the government gives benefits that were intended for the working poor.
Much changed after Oct 7th. Feiglin (who is not currently in the Knesset or government), and many of our elected officials were wrong. Very wrong. It may be a good reason to vote for someone else next time. It does not make them traitors.
The manpower shortage of trained combat soldiers is real and acute:
"This crisis comes as the IDF must replace over 800 killed soldiers and nearly 6,000 wounded soldiers, along with a larger number of soldiers who have or will later be diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder."
When I was in graduate school, I suddenly had an itch to learn more Torah as well. I thought I would try learning a chapter of mishnah a day. At first, I chose a מסכת with short chapters. But, it became an obsession, even when the chapters were longer and more difficult, and as a result, my grades suffered.
I asked the campus rabbi, Rabbi Joseph Polak שליט"א. He said that the Ba'al HaTanya wrote that, at times, a person's yetzer hara can convince him to learn Torah, and it will be at the expense of other mitzvos that are incumbent on him (the Ba'al HaTanya gave the example of not devoting enough time to tefillah, but it can be extended to other things as well). Rabbi Polak told me that learning Torah is wonderful, but it can't be at the expense of my graduate studies (there was also an economic aspect to it, since the university gives a scholarship to their graduate students).
I think the same can be applied here: Learning Torah is a lofty pursuit, perhaps even the loftiest of all types of avodas Hashem, during times of peace. But, when the Jewish people are attacked from so many directions, it should be clear that Hashem is requesting another type of avodah at this juncture in time.
No Dati leumi rabbi or person believes Torah study isn't important. It's just not what everyone in the country can be doing right now. We are fighting a war for our very existence and the chareidim want to pretend that everything is hunky-dory.
I just listened to an interview of Dan Senor with Haviv Rettig Gur, where they mention that many people have been called up for reserve duty for so long, it has done irreparable economic damage to them, even if they return home 100% physically sound. Some reservists have lost their businesses or jobs, because of the prolonged service.
People like "Jerry" here are so self-directed that they are numb and dumb to the real suffering of their fellow Jews. That's probably why he can't sit and learn very well either, and spends his time furtively posting on Rabbi Slifkin's blog, while putting him down and pretending that he himself is an actual ben Torah.
Plenty of Charedim are saying Tehillim. And while you don't care about that, and I get that, it is certainly a sign that they don't think that everything is hunky-dory. And therefore, people like you who misrepresent the situation (whether on purpose or out of simple negligence) do not belong in this conversation. And that is why almost all the talk from the anti-Charedi camp is not a partner in discussion - because in your either ignorant or perhaps willfully dishonest estimation, the Charedim are just ignorant and selfish.
Don't be an obtuse leitz. You know very well that my point was not "we say Tehillim, so you see that we are doing something". If you read my comment, my point was clearly that Charedim do not think that everything is hunky-dory. And to say otherwise is deceptive leitzanus designed to make Charedim look bad (or in your opinion worse than they already are).
May HaShem keep your son safe and may you have much nachas from him.
I would like to add that I have put much thought into what I have been saying, and it is not an issue of selfishness - for if it were up to me I would have your son also not fight in the IDF - for reasons which I am sure that you do not (yet) understand.
They spend a few minutes a day after tefila mumbling a few kepitlach tehillim. What sacrifice! What nobility! That sure makes up for not taking on the responsibility of a nation’s citizens let alone the mitzvah to protect fellow Jews.
Don't be an obtuse leitz. You know very well that my point was not "we say Tehillim, so you see that we are doing something". If you read my comment, my point was clearly that Charedim do not think that everything is hunky-dory. And to say otherwise is deceptive leitzanus designed to make Charedim look bad (or in your opinion worse than they already are).
Comparing chareidim in erets yisrael to reform jews in erets yisrael is unfair to the reform jews. In particular, the failures of reform jews are bein afam lamakom, whereas chareidim are failing their obligations bein adam lechaveiro. But note: הללו שוגגין והללו מזידין !!
In the first place I referred to Reform Jews in Israel and chareidim in Israel. In the US it’s far more complicated.
Second, what is your feeling about those chareidim who push for a NO state solution? Is that better or worse than support for a TWO state solution?
Third, although I may disagree with a “Two State solution pusher” of one sort or another, that has little or nothing to do with how much he or she cares about Israel and is willing to sacrifice for it. Some sincerely care and some don’t, and my experience tells me that the same is true for almost every other group of Jews in the US, unless they’re voting for explicitly anti-Israel politicians, which very few do, at least intentionally. And those who do actively oppose Israel rarely belong to a Reform temple or to any other Jewish institution. They disavow Jewish identity except to use the label”jewish” as a fig leaf for anti-Israel activism, like so-called “Jews forJustice in Palestine”. As far as i know committed reform jews generally have nothing to do with such groups.
But I agree with you that the more assimilated a Jew is in the US the less he or she “takes Israel into account” when voting. On that you are right. Such people care only a little about any sort of solution, whether of 2 or 1 or 0 states! This is the “many” in the expression “many reform Jews” which you used. But I don’t think that MOST don’t care at all; they do, just not as much as you. Truth is, I don’t know how many is “many” when we’re talking about total indifference. I suspect antisemitism has reduced that number!
Don't be an obtuse leitz. You know very well that my point was not "we say Tehillim, so you see that we are doing something". If you read my comment, my point was clearly that Charedim do not think that everything is hunky-dory. And to say otherwise is deceptive leitzanus designed to make Charedim look bad (or in your opinion worse than they already are).
Yeah, we're all obtuse leitzim like G'dalya says. We just want to make people mad a the haredim, because otherwise, everybody else would be too dumb to notice anything trivial like major societal trends and historical crises. We should shut up and let G'dalya tell us what's up.
You and the likes of Slifkin think when someone disagrees with you an something you feel is so important that the other person must be stupid or evil.
Therefore, you think that we think so of you when you disagree with us. But that is not so.
The reason I said "obtuse leitz" is not because of the disagreement, but because the the responder to my comment picked out a detail of my comment which was not relevant in and of itself, and ignored the entire point of my comment. And she used that detail to make Charedim seem cruel. The point of my comment she never addressed - never even tried to refute.
Communicating in a way that leads others to think less of the subject of the communication is by definition leytzanus. Although this may happen "by the way" in certain communications, and it may still be wrong, one might be understanding of this. But this person had no point to her comment except to smear someone else. This is one not-uncommon modus operandi of anti-Charedim.
This reminds me of something Rabbi Michel Shurkin used to say back in my previous gilgul when I learned in ToMo. We know each of the 4 minim have taste and smell, the esrog has both, the lulav only taste, hadassim only smell and aravos neither. According to some, taste represents torah study while smell represents doing mitzvot. In that case, the esrog seems to be the most perfect of the minim, so why do we mention only the lulav in the bracha? Rabbi Shurkin would answer with a glint in his eye "because the lulav has ONLY torah!!!"
A similar "vort" along the same lines that used to be repeated in ToMo: the words in the ktuba אנא אפלח ואזון ואפרנס כגוברין יהודאין are meant to be read בתמיה.
It's this kind of messaging, even if said tongue in cheek, that produces a cadre of people who are totally disconnected from klal Yisrael
I think yeshivas produce these types of stories for two reasons: (a) Yeshivas are geared towards 19 year-old boys, and the silly, frat boy atmosphere eventually percolates up to the hanahala as well, much like the dynamic that occurs between college students and professors on college campuses. (b) Again, yeshivas resemble college campuses in that they are exist insulated from reality, so making dumb jokes like "the words in the ktuba אנא אפלח ואזון ואפרנס כגוברין יהודאין are meant to be read בתמיה" are par for the course. That humor would never occur to anyone in the real world who actually has to work to support a family - especially when those very same yeshivas then call the (working) parents of their students begging for donations!
Rabbi Slifkin could you please share your aim in your writing about Haredim? Or better, the impact you’ve seen your writing has had based on feedback you’ve received.
Would you say that your primary goal is to convince Haredim to enlist? This seems hard to believe since you don’t seem to be addressing Haredim and the mentality that prevents them from enlisting directly.
Is it to spread awareness among non-Haredim to apply pressure to Haredim? What are practical means to do this that don’t cause Haredim to dig their heels in more? Additionally, I find that you’re writing makes me feel a sort of hatred towards the Haredi community, but I don’t see how this emotion helps anyone.
You often characterize Haredim as “self centered” but given the sociological forces at play, to me it isn’t fair to expect individuals embedded in a fairly insular community to question core beliefs of their society. I would agree that the responsibility here rests on Haredi leadership, but once again, I don’t believe your writing makes much of an impact on them. Which brings me back to the question of who you’re writing for?
You don't appreciate true avodas Hashem, you don't appreciate iyun Hatorah, you don't understand what it means to be close to Hashem. You don't stand for the Rambam's view on Judaism and he would be appalled that you think you do. All you understand is your very humanistic, secular Judaism which you disguise with what you call torah values and mitzvos. We are not just a nation of good feelings and helping people in the way you describe. We are a nation united under God and His Will, something that is low on your hierarchy of values.
You've seceded from Judaism, not Reb Moshe Hillel Hirsch.
Funny thing is, I agree with your criticisms. But you're so one sided and it seems you'll just never grow up.
I, more than anyone here, understands the point of the Yeshivos (I hope to write a post on that). But while you say you're not a cold person, Jerry, you probably just don't realize the burden being placed on the people you're talking to. Idk if you'll listen to this (you should) but you can get a little sense of what's going on from this Haviv Reteg Gur podcast - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8GUoPaAVdQ&pp=ygUQaGF2aXYgcmV0dGlnIGd1cg%3D%3D
I think yeshivos are important and we can't dismantle them, but at the same time there really needs to be some change in the community IMHO. It's not fair that thousands of people are being affected by this war in so many ways and the charedim aren't contributing at all, causing the burden to be even larger.
Even if we need our yeshivos and they don't understand the importance of Torah etc. (things I agree with), we NEED to figure something out faster. It's causing others to say the opposite of אשרי מי שיולדתו, and חילול השם is not something to take lightly. Families are being torn apart.
Even if we don't share their values of importance of "Israel" (we don't), we still live there and they are protecting us - how can we not contribute? It's hard, it means sacrifice and it means we need to change the way we look at things, but it's intolerable not to!
As I was saying, there are a lot of spiritually and societally sensitive haredim in the world. For years, many of us had assumed that if it really came to a situation where the yeshiva population were needed, they would respond, and כש"כ, the haredi gedolim would send them with a blessing. The secular population would understand that haredim felt a strong connection with the other sectors, and would develop a new respect for the Torah and for serious learning...but no. That too, is heartbreaking, because it brings no honor to your gedolim, whom I once believed were mine as well.
So you see that you never really understood the Charedi position. What makes you think that you understand it now? How can you assess (let alone criticize) something you don't understand?
When the haredi position involves paying an increasingly large sector subsidies intended for the working poor in order to allow healthy young men and heads of household to remain unemployed *on my tax money*, I think I understand well enough. Expecting anyone else to understand more than that is pretty presumptuous.
What I'd really like to understand is why your gedolim say yeshiva students shouldn't attend funerals or make shiva calls for Jews who died while protecting us all. Also, why your community refers to adult men as "boys" for years and years.
You will never understand these things as long as you focus on conclusions (e.g., whether Charedim should go to the army, whether they should attend funerals etc.) and understand refuse to understand the antecedents to these conclusions.
I explain it numerous times in the comments/responses to this article. Just to give you an analogy (which you will find elsewhere on this page:
You see three sheep to your right and two to your left and conclude that there are five sheep. I tell you that there is another sheep that you can not see hiding behind a tree, and I say there are six sheep. It is pointless to argue about whether there are five or six sheep because the correct answer hinges on whether or not there is a sheep hiding behind the tree that you can not see. The only point of discussion should be whether or not there is a sheep behind that tree. But all the anti-Charedim just want to focus on how foolish the Charedim are because it's so obvious that 3 (on the right) plus 2 (on the left) equals 5!
I've adequately proved on several occasions that the charedim only believe in this sheep when it's convenient for them. Or, to avoid getting lost in a silly mashal: charedim only believe that Torah is a substitute for hishtadlus when they can offload the hishtadlus to someone else.
...and if I haven't eaten in several days, and the people with the sheep are enjoying their lamb chops and want me to pay for their feast and don't want to share their food, I really don't care if they have 5 sheep or 6 sheep.
You have still not demonstrated your understanding of the Charedi position. If you can cite the underlying differences between you and Charedim that bring you to think as disgusting what Charedim think is obligatory, then you might have some understanding. And if you actually do have that understanding, then the argument between you/Slifkin/etc and the Charedim is not really about the army (etc.) but about those underlying differences - because the conclusions about the army (etc.) is all based on those underlying differences.
But you are working backward - since you have already concluded your position about army (etc.) based on other factors, so you must come to the conclusoin that we are wrong not only about the army but about the other underlying factors.
A million Jews (Charedim) can be wrong - but not likely all stupid and as selfish as you believe. So if you want to stubbornly believe that Charedim are just stupid and that selfish - then there is nothing to talk about.
I do hope you can still learn (relearn?) to appreciate their position one day. But I don't blame those that see all of the pain if they struggle to do so.
I agree with and appreciate so much of what you wrote here (i know you know this, but just to spell it out - DL people believe in the importance of yeshivos as well and would never say to dismantle them).
One question, though - what do you mean 'we don't share their values of importance of 'Israel'? I can understand the arguments regarding involvement in a secular state, but when it comes to making a blanket statement negating the importance of Israel - ha'yitachen? And is that applicable in the context of a war to maintain our presence here (Iran's stated goal), or a war to protect millions of Jews?
When I say that I mean the secular Zionist Israel which is trying to be nationalistic in lieu of actual Judaism. The state is still a secular one, which IMO is a good thing for many reasons, but it means that the army nationalism at large is not something we are comfortable with. That said, which is exactly what I was explaining above, they are still protecting us and how can we not contribute??
A lot of people in my community have a hard time making this distinction, thanks for highlighting it:)
I've wrote this many times, but any dramatic change will cost a generation just like it did in the early years of the state for mizrachi. It will need a full generation of change, starting with more chareidim becoming closer to America style, with more entering the work force and some more education. And that won't happen in this all or nothing society.
But you're starting with much more of a spiritual infrastructure than the orignial bnei akiva youth who scoffed at my Rosh yeshiva for doing hesder and not full service.
You are probably right, it is less of a problem in that way, but change is still change and needs to be gradual. Additionally, the state started with people on ground Zero so people weren't changing much as far as infrastructure, so in that way for Chareidim its more difficult.
You're missing the context of what I was saying to leib schachar. I was merely saying that chareidim would take less time to adjust to the army as they have a Torah infrastructure. We didn't. That's the lost generation Leib was reffering to.
What silly ad hominem nonsense you throw at Rav Slifkin. If you “agree with his criticisms” then what does he “not understand”? The Rambam? Read his other blog postings for a correct understanding of Rambam (and in general of our halachik traditions) concerning the obligation to help physically, militarily, practically at times like these! But what is the point of rehashing the argument endlessly? You don’t get it because you don’t want to get it.
I don't think Charedim have everything figured out. But people like you think you do. And I contend that you're further from the truth than we are. You follow one Rambam but completely ignore twenty others. It's easy to throw those discussions under the wraps and kick the argument down the road, but those discussions are the ones that define these!
Haredim are kind of new off shoot sect of Torah pretending to be real Torah, like Christianity does. Just because we of course didn't figure out everything, doesn't mean we can't expose christianitybirvharedism as no relation to the true Torah.
Yes and it's not stringincy to dodge army or to get payed for learning Torah. It's just called using Torah for personal interests. And all badatz business is mostly money related too. Corrupt
But doesn't this highlight something amazing - the classic charedi doesn't hang out on the internet. Where else do you find such beautiful behavior? I'm the MO/DL community this is encouraged in the name of being worldly (which I am), but at what expense?
Here's a list of widely ignored Rambams, but I can't attest to whether or not Rabbi Slifkin or others in the modern orthodox community ignores them (in fact, I think you'll find that some are only followed by modern orthodox and others perhaps only by sefardim or teimanim :))
1. Yesodei hatorah 3,8-9
2. Yesodei hatorah 4,10-13 (see ritva suka 28, gra on Rama yoreh de'ah 246,4)
3. Yesodei hatorah 7,6 (specifically "על ידי מלאך", see Ramban beginning of parshas vayera)
4. Much of De'os perek 4 (hopefully people follow the spirit of the perek and ask doctors what their eating and sleeping habits should be)
5. Talmud Torah 1,7
6. Talmud Torah 1,11-12
7. Talmud Torah 3,10 (see kesef mishne there)
8. Avoda zara 11,16 (see radak Shmuel a end of perek 28, Ramban devarim 18,9-12, gra on shulchan aruch yoreh de'ah 179,6)
9. Keriyas shema 1,13 (see shulchan aruch orach chaim 58,6)
10. Keriyas shema 4,1/7 (see raavad on 4,7 and shulchan aruch orach chaim 70,3)
11. Tefilla 4,15 and 10,1 (see Rama orach chaim 101,1)
12. Tefilla 5,15 (see shulchan aruch orach chaim 131, 4/6/7)
13. Tefilla 6,5 (see Rama orach chaim 232,2)
14. Tefilla 7,4-9 (see shulchan aruch orach chaim 46,2 and Rama there 46,8)
15. Tefilla 12,10-12 and 12,14 (see shulchan aruch orach chaim 145,3)
16. Tefilla 13,6 (see raavad there and shulchan aruch orach chaim 428,7)
17. Tefilla 15,3 (see Rama orach chaim 128,35)
18. Tzitzis end of 3,9 (see Rama orach chaim 17,2)
19. Brachos 1,16 (see Rama orach chaim 215,1)
20. Brachos 4,3 (see Rama orach chaim 178,2)
Sigh, I barely scratched the surface :( I didn't even get to talk about music or eruvin or kashrus or nida (regarding an aspect of the last one, see shu"t chasam sofer yoreh de'ah siman 143 where he says וא"א לעשות להרמב"ם אפילו סניף בעלמא בהא מלתא כי שיטתו דחויה ולא מצאנו ידינו ורגלינו ברוב הסוגיות) not to mention his various letters (standing for aseres hadibros, mazalos, etc) or moreh
The truth is, I now realize that the one Rambam that Jerry was referring to is perhaps talmud Torah 3,10 (#7 on my list) so I should probably add one more to make twenty in addition to his one.
21. Brachos 5,2 (see shulchan aruch orach chaim 197,3 and mishna brura there sif katan 22)
It is tribal thinking/behavior. Which begs comparisons to other human groups who behave similarly. Fundamental Islam comes to mind, especially when invoking G-d’s intentions. The Haredim are just way too small to actually mean what they say. Give it some time and the similarities will emerge.
My apologies, Charles, for not thanking you on you previous post on Grover Cleveland was enlightening - and thanks. An interesting idea of making them pay those who are conscripted. It has a Talmudic air to it ( Baca Batra 144)….
Lol. If you, Jerry Steinfeld, want charedim who DON'T learn to be exempt from the draft too, then clearly your priority is not actually iyun hatorah or avodas hashem.
I don't want that. But can you not see that the chashivus for iyun hatorah and avoda is higher amogst charedim? For all their flaws, do you really not see where they're coming from?
I do believe I see “where they are coming from”, a self-serving, self-regarding, self-deception that safeguards them from the life and death dangers the rest of us face.
How else to comprehend anyone’s equating the burdens of prolonged military service, and its risk of death or injury or marital stress or financial collapse to a risk that “a bochur will be led astray” by “mixing” with the secular or ר״ל dati leumi chevreh? Who dares compare a chareidi worry of POSSIBLE contamination with the nightmare terrors of a parent whose son (or daughter) is serving in REAL(!!) harm’s way?
If anyone thinks these worries are on the same moral plane they are אטומי לב, willfully so in fact, and should be defunded asap.
But the replacement for the beit hamikdash is tefila in the beit knesset. ונשלמה פרים שפתינו. Although I agree that prayer is not enough and השתדלות is required.
Did I ever say anything that implies that anyone learning is good and genuine?? All I'm saying is that the way to learn Torah like Reb Moshe Feinstein and the Mishna Berurah is to crack your head open on a sugya and it takes hours of work, frustration, thought, diligence and review. Chashivus for that is important and missing in much of the DL/MO communities. It has gotten better but we are still championing this fight. It has come at a cost, one too great too bear, but at least it should be understood what basket we are putting our eggs in instead of arguing one-sidedly.
There are thousands that finish Shas, learn through the entire Shilchan Aurich, every year or few years. Where exactly do you come up that you have to "Crack your head open" on several lines in the gemorah for 2 months. Is that the only way to learn our heiliga Torah??
I guess you are implying that others nebach get their head cracked open in fighting this just war, and you guys also get your heads cracked open.
Jerry - should I use this as excuse #22, ......... look we get our heads cracked open too.
Let's highlight this comment you just made: It's amazing that people finish Shas and Shulchan Aruch. But to be a posek, one needs to learn the sugya himself. That takes effort and hours and that's the lesson they teach in those formative years in Yeshiva. If it takes a few months to get a sugya clear, so be it, that's not to do with the system, that's because we are stupid/distracted. And surely this shouldn't come at the expense of learning shas and shulchan aruch as a bekius seder, But the main part of the day for a talmid chochom is learning the depths of the sugya, because all those little nuances matter to a psak. If you don't understand this, you just have no idea what is going on in a good yeshiva, or what the purpose of a yeshiva is to begin with. If so, "down with the system" anyways, and what is our discussion about?
It is the Haredim who have seceded from Judaism. They worship more than one god: the Real One plus one or more "rabbis". Last time I looked, real Judaism was still monotheistic.
This is a waste of time. The charedim will never agree to join the army because they feel that joining the army will detract from their piety. To them, its existential. They don't care if you call them names, or if you claim to know what type of chesed they should be doing, or whether its milchemes mitzvah. They just don't care; the army is an existential threat to their way of life. The only way to get them to join the army is to convince them that they can keep their piety in the army. Anything else is a waste of time.
"You don't know what you are talking about" and "you are a bad person" is a pretty standard method of evasion. It's too transparent to be effective. Try another tack.
I'm not a cold person. I feel very strongly for what's happening. The almanos, the yesomim, the dead, the injured, the worried, the sleepless nights, the quiet shabbosos, and on and on.
But the fact that Charedim have a different system where the 18 year olds need to be spending their time engrossed in Hashem's torah in this morally corrupt and godless world is not something to be taken lightly. Which it is by the many other posts on this blog.
You think evolution is helping people feel God's presence? You think your system is something that promotes fear of Heaven? You pour cold water on anything and everything holy, but yet you think your voice is the voice of truth and finality??
It can for some. But for the majority, especially for the ones you guys want to send to the army before they're ripe and ready, it's far more damaging. They don't yet appreciate torah enough to just be exposed all the way.
You, nebech, can't sit and learn, so he sneaks off to waste time on Rabbi Slifkin's blog. Jerry can't even get his own blog, either, so he just insults others. Sad, sad, sad.
I'm not defending myself I shouldn't be here, none of us should. It just bothers me that Slifkin goes on and on and on and on and disparages my people. You wouldn't keep quiet if someone did the same to you.
Absolutely agree with you that "18 year old's need to be spending their time engrossed in Hashem's Torah". That is why my 18 year old son, like yours (if you have one) is spending 14 hours or more a day in the Beit Midrash learning Torah.
However, after 2 or even 5 years learning 14 hours a day, my son will be ready to leave the walls of the Beit midrash and take the Torah that he learnt with him to the army and then into a profession where he will (Please G-d) be able to support his nation and his family.
Can you say the same about the young men from your community, that the Torah they are learning can continue to guide them even when they leave the Beit Midrash, or will they always have the mentality of an 18 year old who cannot step outside the Beit midrash because the morally corrupt and godless world out there.
Do you believe in Torah that cannot guide someone in their life wherever they end up?
I think it should be. But I also think that having a foot out the door can have a detrimental affect in the learning. (For some or many, I'm sure your son is fine...)
Not sure what you mean my "one foot out the door", but the knowledge that your time learning is limited can also have the opposite effect.
My son keeps reminding me that he needs to make the most of this year and next as this may be the only chance he has to 100% immerse himself in Talmud Torah without other distractions.
The fact that he knows that next year (or possibly the following year) he will have less time to sit and learn makes him appreciate the time he has now, and encourages him to not waste a single second.
True, but at the same time, there are so many nuances to pick up when learning in depth. In order to be able to sit and focus on the nuances properly, with exceptions, one needs to be in it for the long run.
“Voice of truth and finality”? That degree of arrogant certainty is the preserve of self-righteous, self-absorbed chareidim (admittedly NOT ALL chareidim) who refuse so much as to say a מי שברך for the hundreds of thousands, nay millions, of their brothers and sisters suffering horribly in defense of our land and people.
One of these days the nausea induced by this repulsive attitude is going end up vomiting the chareidi mafia from the country, when both the center, right, and left zionist parties no longer need the chareidi parties for coalition purposes. Someday a popular outcry will force this.
No need to expel anyone. So simple to do. Just end the budget extortions for phony “masmidim” and phony kollelim, and they will vanish from the scene כהרף עין. Only true בני תורה will remain, and then they will enjoy renewed respect, love even, from the rest of עם ישראל. Because contrary to what many gedoilim say, the revulsion is not for the Torah but for those who abuse the Torah for their selfish benefits. The disgust is most strongly felt by ציונים דתיים who love Torah, more than by חילונים.
So instead why don't we all chill and learn from each other instead of each side complaining about the other? Both sides have reason to be nauseous about the other and both sides should look into the mirror and become nauseous themselves. I am sickened by the lack of heart I see in my community. I live and respect that you guys are unbelievable in the area. I left Lakewood because I couldn't stand the sickening unfriendliness and selfish attitude that sticks out in the street. But I am equally respectful of their commitment to torah and halacha like no other, and although Lakewood is not for me, I consider it an amazing place. At the same time I love the "out of townie," MO communities to live in, but they don't respect torah enough. Which is actually fine by me- until they start badmouthing the whole Lakewood because they don't get it. That's what bothers me about this super one-sided, mean and vulgar, Charedi-bashing self-righteous blog-site.
I don't love the rhetoric either, but people are in pain. I'm not sure it's acceptable for you to ask the to "chill" when their husbands/fathers/children/cousins/friends are taking on so much. You can have differences of opinion (I very much do), but you need to understand their grievances as well, or respectfully, you're as much to blame about the one-sidedness as they are.
Think of it as hostage family members pressuring the state to release 5 thousand terrorists for their loved one. pain goes a long way, but for people who claim being objective there can be an answer.
Given your commenting style here, I might venture to guess that Lakewood people had good reason to be unfriendly to you : Your arrogance, judgementalism, and cruelty.
Your comments consistently drip with all the above.
You come across, my friend as a creepy arrogant cruel, and judgemental person who I would avoid contact with as well. Don't blame your former neighbors in Lakewood. Rather look in the mirror.
"I left Lakewood because I couldn't stand the sickening unfriendliness and selfish attitude that sticks out in the street. But I am equally respectful of their commitment to torah and halacha like no other"
You think torah and halacha are OK with being unfriendly and selfish?
Would you support 28 year old Haredim getting drafted? This gives them 10 years of full time learning, on top of cheder + yeshiva katana before they start army service. Would that work?
It would be an improvement. Armies have good reasons for starting them younger. And you just know the Charedi communities would find ways to delay until the guys were too old for Army service. Start them off 18-20 like everyone else
Do you feel that evolution (and other scientific and historical matters) is simply a choice, to be accepted or waved away at whim or to suit your other beliefs?
I think evolution probably happened, but for most people it pours cold water on the magnificence of creation. I think the book harmed more people than it helped even though it's probably true (I say probably because I know nothing about tziruf ha'osiyos and how the kabalists seem to explain creation matters).
The opposite is true. When you really understand the nature of HaShem's creation you marvel even more. The Biblical Literalist understanding (which is a Christian thing and not a Jewish thing.and is rejected by most Christians) limits God!
From what I hear, what pours cold water on people's belief is when they happen to come across strong arguments for things like evolution or the existence of dinosaurs, and they are told to deny this to themselves and others.
Last I checked they draft at 18, which some hold is forbidden for a government to force service under 20 as the torah says (volunteering is different). so you just switched what the torah says. That's not the same
If you lie about the age of the universe, evolution, and whatever other physical realities religious fundamentalists prefer to ignore, it is damaging to both your credibility and your spiritual health.
For what it's worth, my understanding of the clip posted above (without hearing any context) is that Rav Hirsch wasn't saying that it's the chessed of the yeshiva students that supports the country, he was saying their status as bnei yeshiva, which is meant to allow them to grow in learning, yiras shamayim, middos, and chessed, that supports the country, essentially reiterating what he had said a few seconds earlier in the clip.
Speaking as an outsider to the community, my sense is that the Chareidi community incorporates gemilus chassadim as a value that they do express, but individually/intracommunally rather than nationally, which is what Rav Aharon Lichtenstein described in Ideology of Hesder.
I have been keeping score on the excuses the Charedim Draft Dodgers, as to why they should not have to go to the Army. I was stuck at 20 for a while.
However, Buroch Hashem today I saw another one from a Yair Nehorai.
He claims if the Charedim go to the army they will have re-make the army to cater to them. Kosher food, no Girls, with Shabbos observance, etc.. This will hurt the Chlonim from keeping their free lifestyle, and it. would be discrimination against them. We have NO right to do that to the poor Chlonim!
We are Up to 21 now!!! ............ Keep them coming don't stop
The behavior of army policies which put soldiers in danger to save enemy Civilians is disgraceful as well. So is the willingness to throw jews out of their homes and give away land to our enemies just to buy a few years of peace. The side who is most strident in גיוס חרדים seems to be the side which is less connected to Israel in many ways.
“Connected to Israel”? That isn’t the prerogative of one side or the other(s) in the political debate about יו״ש aka The West Bank aka “the shtoochim”.
It's (long) overdue that Yeshiva students were compelled to perform either military or other national service. But as much as I detest pitting one observant Jewish side against another, they need to step up to the plate. Failing that, then benefits that they might get should be cut or cut out.
"Whoever incites or persuades a person obligated to serve in the armed forces not to serve or not to appear for military action, shall be punished with five years in prison."
Why are they not picking up this so called Rabbi.??
It is unbecoming for charedim to take, or rather, demand others pay to support the charedim lifestyle. Also, per halacha, citizens of a country are supposed to follow the law of the land they reside in (with a few exceptions). Per halacha and for the avoidance of chillil hashem charedim must contribute in a substantial way to the defense of the land.
Rbbi Slivkin, Why are you shocked? - nothing shocks me anymore from these self centered people and their leaders. The only lower thing is when they declare that going to protect the Yidden in Eretz Yisoel is a sin if they do do it with learning.
This is also not far off.
I am coming to the conclusion that Israel is better off if these no goodnik, selfish draft dodger were not there. Isn't there another place in the world where they can go, and leave Eretz Yisroel for those who love it?
By the way, all this time, some young haredi men are making the individual decision to go into the IDF. Some older ones, as well, even if "only" for shlav bet. Haredi men are signing up for kitot konnenut to protect their neighborhoods, like those groups of civilians on border kibbutzim and moshavim that were able to defend themselves on Oct 7.
Just like haredi women kept going out to learn well-paying professions to support their families and keep their husbands in learning, while certain "gdolim" proclaimed that getting a degree was asur. These are not foolish people, and they are still faithful people.
"After all, even though Israel existed for decades, through the challenges of ‘48 and the 50s and ‘67, without a hundred thousand charedim in yeshiva"
After all even though Israel existed for decades, through the challenges of ‘48 and the 50s and ‘67, without a hundred thousand bochurim in the army???
As the mother of a reservist who has seen way too much duty I worry very much about the consequences of this continuing war. Your writing speaks volumes about the lack of compassion, self centered and entitlement fostered in some parts of the Ultra Orthodox community. Many Israelis both study and learn, to their individual capacities as well as serving to protect our country and contributing to the general welfare instead of exploiting the benefits of living in Israel. They are causing so much harm to our unity and security that their very existence has become a burden rather than the blessing it was meant to be.
To be clear, the real enemy is Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran, not the Charedim. I think we should constantly be making that often forgotten fact clear along with our criticisms.
Sensitive haredim, unlike you, are well aware of the irreparable damage to Jewish unity by the blanket exemption currently given to young haredi males, regardless of their history or potential in learning.
Sorry dude, not even close. No one honest thinks that people opposing drafts for ideological reasons are sympathetic to the enemy. That's not the issue and you know it. I disagree with the Charedi approach to the war but they are not traitors to Iran. It's disgusting to insinuate such even if you hate their policies.
The insinuation comes to mind unbidden. And if you think it's "not nice" for you, you should think how it must be for us. We are the ones betrayed here. Yehuda had the character to admit it, but haredi society never will. Your Torah will forever remain sullied.
I've made this comment before. If you are going to smear approximately 1 million Torah observant people as silly and selfish, it is clear that you simply do not understand their position (even if you can parrot 1 or 2 sentences that sound like it). You have many preconceived notions that Charedim see differently, and since the Charedi position does not jive with your preconceived notions that you you just assume that Charedim are off their rockers.
I'm not "parroting" anything. I have lived here in Israel since 1983, when I literally did not know anyone in the entire country. Came to study for a year, and basically stayed. Married, had a family, studied nursing in Hebrew. Prepped for the nursing boards when my husband was in miluim and I took care of the 2 toddlers on my own. Worked a lot, endured pregnancies, miluim, and a lot of financial hardship. I sent 2 sons to kravi, one of whom is serving in the North right now, leaving his wife at home with their own toddlers.
I have haredi in-laws, whom I love and respect, including 3 Israeli sons-in-law who left the haredi world for reasons of their own, but still love and respect their families and where they came from. Most of my contact with the haredi world, though, has been from attending lots and lots of shiurim with haredi women over the years, people who represent the best of your community, and the ones who keep it afloat. I've had long conversations over the years with haredim on IDF service, some of whom were conflicted on the topic, others who were not.
I "parrot" nothing. My opinions are my own, and I have earned them.
To observe the Torah does not preclude army service in any rational sense. I understand the very legitimate concerns that Charedim have about their young men being exposed to a way of life that includes many practices that are not consistent with their beliefs BUT we’re talking about protecting the Jewish homeland and it is a collective responsibility. How one chooses to carry out one’s duties is different from refusing to recognize or serving while expecting others to carry the dangerous and necessary responsibilities which are part of life as a Jew. This is the mandate we accepted at Har Sinai and it was accepted without qualifications.
Jerry (why do you hide behind a silly name, ashamed to use your real name?)
Can you explain the difference between the Ayatollah and this so called Rabbi. The Ayatollah desires to kill every single last Jew in Israel and then this Rabbi wants to let him do it.
This Rabbi is promoting not to go into the army to defend against this Ayatollah. Everyone can give some excuse not to go. Or what happens when thousands decide to say Tehilim in lieu of army service. How do we pick them up for some jail and not Yeshiva boys. This Rabbi does not have the monopoly on excuses not to go. In other word this Rabbi is okay with a total volunteer army, which basically means Israel is lost. Kindly explain then - what is the difference between of the Ayatollah and this Rabbi.
You may disagree that Torah doesn't protect like they say, but they aren't traitors just because they like a different form of ammunition better. I'm not sure why we need to have this conversation in the first place though - why can't we just argue the points instead of trying to argue if they are even worse than that? If they are wrong in their ideology, that's a great argument to make. Saying that since they are wrong they also fall under the category of traitors and enemies of the state is highly arguable and probably pointless and silly, especially since we need to argue about the first point alone.
PS - I already wrote a post about my anonymity! Check it out! - https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/how-to-deal-with-the-world-isolation
Moshe Feiglin also wants a professional volunteer army. Is he a traitor?
Before Oct 7, a lot of smart people thought we could manage with a "small smart" professional army. That's clearly no longer the case, if it ever was.
When the reality on the ground changes, you have to change plans accordingly. Like maintaining a society where almost all men learn full time and the government gives benefits that were intended for the working poor.
Moshe Feiglin lost a grandson in this war.
Much changed after Oct 7th. Feiglin (who is not currently in the Knesset or government), and many of our elected officials were wrong. Very wrong. It may be a good reason to vote for someone else next time. It does not make them traitors.
The manpower shortage of trained combat soldiers is real and acute:
"This crisis comes as the IDF must replace over 800 killed soldiers and nearly 6,000 wounded soldiers, along with a larger number of soldiers who have or will later be diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder."
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-829711
IDENTITY THEFT!!!!! @chanasiegel is posting under my name again. This is not Chana Siegel , but another previously banned account.
https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-829658
When I was in graduate school, I suddenly had an itch to learn more Torah as well. I thought I would try learning a chapter of mishnah a day. At first, I chose a מסכת with short chapters. But, it became an obsession, even when the chapters were longer and more difficult, and as a result, my grades suffered.
I asked the campus rabbi, Rabbi Joseph Polak שליט"א. He said that the Ba'al HaTanya wrote that, at times, a person's yetzer hara can convince him to learn Torah, and it will be at the expense of other mitzvos that are incumbent on him (the Ba'al HaTanya gave the example of not devoting enough time to tefillah, but it can be extended to other things as well). Rabbi Polak told me that learning Torah is wonderful, but it can't be at the expense of my graduate studies (there was also an economic aspect to it, since the university gives a scholarship to their graduate students).
I think the same can be applied here: Learning Torah is a lofty pursuit, perhaps even the loftiest of all types of avodas Hashem, during times of peace. But, when the Jewish people are attacked from so many directions, it should be clear that Hashem is requesting another type of avodah at this juncture in time.
Ding! Ding! Ding!
No Dati leumi rabbi or person believes Torah study isn't important. It's just not what everyone in the country can be doing right now. We are fighting a war for our very existence and the chareidim want to pretend that everything is hunky-dory.
I just listened to an interview of Dan Senor with Haviv Rettig Gur, where they mention that many people have been called up for reserve duty for so long, it has done irreparable economic damage to them, even if they return home 100% physically sound. Some reservists have lost their businesses or jobs, because of the prolonged service.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IciipDk8Ths
People like "Jerry" here are so self-directed that they are numb and dumb to the real suffering of their fellow Jews. That's probably why he can't sit and learn very well either, and spends his time furtively posting on Rabbi Slifkin's blog, while putting him down and pretending that he himself is an actual ben Torah.
Plenty of Charedim are saying Tehillim. And while you don't care about that, and I get that, it is certainly a sign that they don't think that everything is hunky-dory. And therefore, people like you who misrepresent the situation (whether on purpose or out of simple negligence) do not belong in this conversation. And that is why almost all the talk from the anti-Charedi camp is not a partner in discussion - because in your either ignorant or perhaps willfully dishonest estimation, the Charedim are just ignorant and selfish.
That's laughable. A few perakim of tehilim while my child is sacrificing his life for this country.
Don't be an obtuse leitz. You know very well that my point was not "we say Tehillim, so you see that we are doing something". If you read my comment, my point was clearly that Charedim do not think that everything is hunky-dory. And to say otherwise is deceptive leitzanus designed to make Charedim look bad (or in your opinion worse than they already are).
Thanks for insulting me. It's much appreciated. You clearly have no idea what parents of IDF soldiers are going through. You're a real special person.
I am very sorry, and I ask you for mechilah.
May HaShem keep your son safe and may you have much nachas from him.
I would like to add that I have put much thought into what I have been saying, and it is not an issue of selfishness - for if it were up to me I would have your son also not fight in the IDF - for reasons which I am sure that you do not (yet) understand.
They spend a few minutes a day after tefila mumbling a few kepitlach tehillim. What sacrifice! What nobility! That sure makes up for not taking on the responsibility of a nation’s citizens let alone the mitzvah to protect fellow Jews.
Don't be an obtuse leitz. You know very well that my point was not "we say Tehillim, so you see that we are doing something". If you read my comment, my point was clearly that Charedim do not think that everything is hunky-dory. And to say otherwise is deceptive leitzanus designed to make Charedim look bad (or in your opinion worse than they already are).
Comparing chareidim in erets yisrael to reform jews in erets yisrael is unfair to the reform jews. In particular, the failures of reform jews are bein afam lamakom, whereas chareidim are failing their obligations bein adam lechaveiro. But note: הללו שוגגין והללו מזידין !!
Many reform jews don't take Israel into account when they vote. Many also support organizations which push a two state solution. That's way way worse.
In the first place I referred to Reform Jews in Israel and chareidim in Israel. In the US it’s far more complicated.
Second, what is your feeling about those chareidim who push for a NO state solution? Is that better or worse than support for a TWO state solution?
Third, although I may disagree with a “Two State solution pusher” of one sort or another, that has little or nothing to do with how much he or she cares about Israel and is willing to sacrifice for it. Some sincerely care and some don’t, and my experience tells me that the same is true for almost every other group of Jews in the US, unless they’re voting for explicitly anti-Israel politicians, which very few do, at least intentionally. And those who do actively oppose Israel rarely belong to a Reform temple or to any other Jewish institution. They disavow Jewish identity except to use the label”jewish” as a fig leaf for anti-Israel activism, like so-called “Jews forJustice in Palestine”. As far as i know committed reform jews generally have nothing to do with such groups.
But I agree with you that the more assimilated a Jew is in the US the less he or she “takes Israel into account” when voting. On that you are right. Such people care only a little about any sort of solution, whether of 2 or 1 or 0 states! This is the “many” in the expression “many reform Jews” which you used. But I don’t think that MOST don’t care at all; they do, just not as much as you. Truth is, I don’t know how many is “many” when we’re talking about total indifference. I suspect antisemitism has reduced that number!
Don't be an obtuse leitz. You know very well that my point was not "we say Tehillim, so you see that we are doing something". If you read my comment, my point was clearly that Charedim do not think that everything is hunky-dory. And to say otherwise is deceptive leitzanus designed to make Charedim look bad (or in your opinion worse than they already are).
Yeah, we're all obtuse leitzim like G'dalya says. We just want to make people mad a the haredim, because otherwise, everybody else would be too dumb to notice anything trivial like major societal trends and historical crises. We should shut up and let G'dalya tell us what's up.
You and the likes of Slifkin think when someone disagrees with you an something you feel is so important that the other person must be stupid or evil.
Therefore, you think that we think so of you when you disagree with us. But that is not so.
The reason I said "obtuse leitz" is not because of the disagreement, but because the the responder to my comment picked out a detail of my comment which was not relevant in and of itself, and ignored the entire point of my comment. And she used that detail to make Charedim seem cruel. The point of my comment she never addressed - never even tried to refute.
Communicating in a way that leads others to think less of the subject of the communication is by definition leytzanus. Although this may happen "by the way" in certain communications, and it may still be wrong, one might be understanding of this. But this person had no point to her comment except to smear someone else. This is one not-uncommon modus operandi of anti-Charedim.
This reminds me of something Rabbi Michel Shurkin used to say back in my previous gilgul when I learned in ToMo. We know each of the 4 minim have taste and smell, the esrog has both, the lulav only taste, hadassim only smell and aravos neither. According to some, taste represents torah study while smell represents doing mitzvot. In that case, the esrog seems to be the most perfect of the minim, so why do we mention only the lulav in the bracha? Rabbi Shurkin would answer with a glint in his eye "because the lulav has ONLY torah!!!"
A similar "vort" along the same lines that used to be repeated in ToMo: the words in the ktuba אנא אפלח ואזון ואפרנס כגוברין יהודאין are meant to be read בתמיה.
It's this kind of messaging, even if said tongue in cheek, that produces a cadre of people who are totally disconnected from klal Yisrael
I think yeshivas produce these types of stories for two reasons: (a) Yeshivas are geared towards 19 year-old boys, and the silly, frat boy atmosphere eventually percolates up to the hanahala as well, much like the dynamic that occurs between college students and professors on college campuses. (b) Again, yeshivas resemble college campuses in that they are exist insulated from reality, so making dumb jokes like "the words in the ktuba אנא אפלח ואזון ואפרנס כגוברין יהודאין are meant to be read בתמיה" are par for the course. That humor would never occur to anyone in the real world who actually has to work to support a family - especially when those very same yeshivas then call the (working) parents of their students begging for donations!
How would they read בקושטא?
Rabbi Slifkin could you please share your aim in your writing about Haredim? Or better, the impact you’ve seen your writing has had based on feedback you’ve received.
Would you say that your primary goal is to convince Haredim to enlist? This seems hard to believe since you don’t seem to be addressing Haredim and the mentality that prevents them from enlisting directly.
Is it to spread awareness among non-Haredim to apply pressure to Haredim? What are practical means to do this that don’t cause Haredim to dig their heels in more? Additionally, I find that you’re writing makes me feel a sort of hatred towards the Haredi community, but I don’t see how this emotion helps anyone.
You often characterize Haredim as “self centered” but given the sociological forces at play, to me it isn’t fair to expect individuals embedded in a fairly insular community to question core beliefs of their society. I would agree that the responsibility here rests on Haredi leadership, but once again, I don’t believe your writing makes much of an impact on them. Which brings me back to the question of who you’re writing for?
You will never get it. Nebach.
You don't appreciate true avodas Hashem, you don't appreciate iyun Hatorah, you don't understand what it means to be close to Hashem. You don't stand for the Rambam's view on Judaism and he would be appalled that you think you do. All you understand is your very humanistic, secular Judaism which you disguise with what you call torah values and mitzvos. We are not just a nation of good feelings and helping people in the way you describe. We are a nation united under God and His Will, something that is low on your hierarchy of values.
You've seceded from Judaism, not Reb Moshe Hillel Hirsch.
Funny thing is, I agree with your criticisms. But you're so one sided and it seems you'll just never grow up.
You'll never get it. Nebach.
I, more than anyone here, understands the point of the Yeshivos (I hope to write a post on that). But while you say you're not a cold person, Jerry, you probably just don't realize the burden being placed on the people you're talking to. Idk if you'll listen to this (you should) but you can get a little sense of what's going on from this Haviv Reteg Gur podcast - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8GUoPaAVdQ&pp=ygUQaGF2aXYgcmV0dGlnIGd1cg%3D%3D
I think yeshivos are important and we can't dismantle them, but at the same time there really needs to be some change in the community IMHO. It's not fair that thousands of people are being affected by this war in so many ways and the charedim aren't contributing at all, causing the burden to be even larger.
Even if we need our yeshivos and they don't understand the importance of Torah etc. (things I agree with), we NEED to figure something out faster. It's causing others to say the opposite of אשרי מי שיולדתו, and חילול השם is not something to take lightly. Families are being torn apart.
Even if we don't share their values of importance of "Israel" (we don't), we still live there and they are protecting us - how can we not contribute? It's hard, it means sacrifice and it means we need to change the way we look at things, but it's intolerable not to!
As I was saying, there are a lot of spiritually and societally sensitive haredim in the world. For years, many of us had assumed that if it really came to a situation where the yeshiva population were needed, they would respond, and כש"כ, the haredi gedolim would send them with a blessing. The secular population would understand that haredim felt a strong connection with the other sectors, and would develop a new respect for the Torah and for serious learning...but no. That too, is heartbreaking, because it brings no honor to your gedolim, whom I once believed were mine as well.
So you see that you never really understood the Charedi position. What makes you think that you understand it now? How can you assess (let alone criticize) something you don't understand?
When the haredi position involves paying an increasingly large sector subsidies intended for the working poor in order to allow healthy young men and heads of household to remain unemployed *on my tax money*, I think I understand well enough. Expecting anyone else to understand more than that is pretty presumptuous.
What I'd really like to understand is why your gedolim say yeshiva students shouldn't attend funerals or make shiva calls for Jews who died while protecting us all. Also, why your community refers to adult men as "boys" for years and years.
You will never understand these things as long as you focus on conclusions (e.g., whether Charedim should go to the army, whether they should attend funerals etc.) and understand refuse to understand the antecedents to these conclusions.
I explain it numerous times in the comments/responses to this article. Just to give you an analogy (which you will find elsewhere on this page:
You see three sheep to your right and two to your left and conclude that there are five sheep. I tell you that there is another sheep that you can not see hiding behind a tree, and I say there are six sheep. It is pointless to argue about whether there are five or six sheep because the correct answer hinges on whether or not there is a sheep hiding behind the tree that you can not see. The only point of discussion should be whether or not there is a sheep behind that tree. But all the anti-Charedim just want to focus on how foolish the Charedim are because it's so obvious that 3 (on the right) plus 2 (on the left) equals 5!
I've adequately proved on several occasions that the charedim only believe in this sheep when it's convenient for them. Or, to avoid getting lost in a silly mashal: charedim only believe that Torah is a substitute for hishtadlus when they can offload the hishtadlus to someone else.
...and if I haven't eaten in several days, and the people with the sheep are enjoying their lamb chops and want me to pay for their feast and don't want to share their food, I really don't care if they have 5 sheep or 6 sheep.
You have still not demonstrated your understanding of the Charedi position. If you can cite the underlying differences between you and Charedim that bring you to think as disgusting what Charedim think is obligatory, then you might have some understanding. And if you actually do have that understanding, then the argument between you/Slifkin/etc and the Charedim is not really about the army (etc.) but about those underlying differences - because the conclusions about the army (etc.) is all based on those underlying differences.
But you are working backward - since you have already concluded your position about army (etc.) based on other factors, so you must come to the conclusoin that we are wrong not only about the army but about the other underlying factors.
A million Jews (Charedim) can be wrong - but not likely all stupid and as selfish as you believe. So if you want to stubbornly believe that Charedim are just stupid and that selfish - then there is nothing to talk about.
I do hope you can still learn (relearn?) to appreciate their position one day. But I don't blame those that see all of the pain if they struggle to do so.
The dead are standing in the way.
I agree with and appreciate so much of what you wrote here (i know you know this, but just to spell it out - DL people believe in the importance of yeshivos as well and would never say to dismantle them).
One question, though - what do you mean 'we don't share their values of importance of 'Israel'? I can understand the arguments regarding involvement in a secular state, but when it comes to making a blanket statement negating the importance of Israel - ha'yitachen? And is that applicable in the context of a war to maintain our presence here (Iran's stated goal), or a war to protect millions of Jews?
When I say that I mean the secular Zionist Israel which is trying to be nationalistic in lieu of actual Judaism. The state is still a secular one, which IMO is a good thing for many reasons, but it means that the army nationalism at large is not something we are comfortable with. That said, which is exactly what I was explaining above, they are still protecting us and how can we not contribute??
A lot of people in my community have a hard time making this distinction, thanks for highlighting it:)
I've wrote this many times, but any dramatic change will cost a generation just like it did in the early years of the state for mizrachi. It will need a full generation of change, starting with more chareidim becoming closer to America style, with more entering the work force and some more education. And that won't happen in this all or nothing society.
But you're starting with much more of a spiritual infrastructure than the orignial bnei akiva youth who scoffed at my Rosh yeshiva for doing hesder and not full service.
You are probably right, it is less of a problem in that way, but change is still change and needs to be gradual. Additionally, the state started with people on ground Zero so people weren't changing much as far as infrastructure, so in that way for Chareidim its more difficult.
People scoff at lots of things. It means nothing.
You're missing the context of what I was saying to leib schachar. I was merely saying that chareidim would take less time to adjust to the army as they have a Torah infrastructure. We didn't. That's the lost generation Leib was reffering to.
What silly ad hominem nonsense you throw at Rav Slifkin. If you “agree with his criticisms” then what does he “not understand”? The Rambam? Read his other blog postings for a correct understanding of Rambam (and in general of our halachik traditions) concerning the obligation to help physically, militarily, practically at times like these! But what is the point of rehashing the argument endlessly? You don’t get it because you don’t want to get it.
I don't think Charedim have everything figured out. But people like you think you do. And I contend that you're further from the truth than we are. You follow one Rambam but completely ignore twenty others. It's easy to throw those discussions under the wraps and kick the argument down the road, but those discussions are the ones that define these!
Haredim are kind of new off shoot sect of Torah pretending to be real Torah, like Christianity does. Just because we of course didn't figure out everything, doesn't mean we can't expose christianitybirvharedism as no relation to the true Torah.
Yes and it's not stringincy to dodge army or to get payed for learning Torah. It's just called using Torah for personal interests. And all badatz business is mostly money related too. Corrupt
Who is "we" kimosabi? You aren't one of the people that the Rav Hirsch is addressing. You are hanging out on the interwebs instead of learning.
את חטאי אני מודה היום
But doesn't this highlight something amazing - the classic charedi doesn't hang out on the internet. Where else do you find such beautiful behavior? I'm the MO/DL community this is encouraged in the name of being worldly (which I am), but at what expense?
Except that the expression (based on the pasuk) is:
את חטאי אני *מזכיר* היום
בראשית מ'א ט
Someone who is so willing to argue that learning excuses the lack of army service, should at least have enough knowledge to get the basics right
Haha, I know that the pasuk says that, but David was the one mentioning it not me; I was just being מודה...
בדיוק!
Okay list the 20 others.
Here's a list of widely ignored Rambams, but I can't attest to whether or not Rabbi Slifkin or others in the modern orthodox community ignores them (in fact, I think you'll find that some are only followed by modern orthodox and others perhaps only by sefardim or teimanim :))
1. Yesodei hatorah 3,8-9
2. Yesodei hatorah 4,10-13 (see ritva suka 28, gra on Rama yoreh de'ah 246,4)
3. Yesodei hatorah 7,6 (specifically "על ידי מלאך", see Ramban beginning of parshas vayera)
4. Much of De'os perek 4 (hopefully people follow the spirit of the perek and ask doctors what their eating and sleeping habits should be)
5. Talmud Torah 1,7
6. Talmud Torah 1,11-12
7. Talmud Torah 3,10 (see kesef mishne there)
8. Avoda zara 11,16 (see radak Shmuel a end of perek 28, Ramban devarim 18,9-12, gra on shulchan aruch yoreh de'ah 179,6)
9. Keriyas shema 1,13 (see shulchan aruch orach chaim 58,6)
10. Keriyas shema 4,1/7 (see raavad on 4,7 and shulchan aruch orach chaim 70,3)
11. Tefilla 4,15 and 10,1 (see Rama orach chaim 101,1)
12. Tefilla 5,15 (see shulchan aruch orach chaim 131, 4/6/7)
13. Tefilla 6,5 (see Rama orach chaim 232,2)
14. Tefilla 7,4-9 (see shulchan aruch orach chaim 46,2 and Rama there 46,8)
15. Tefilla 12,10-12 and 12,14 (see shulchan aruch orach chaim 145,3)
16. Tefilla 13,6 (see raavad there and shulchan aruch orach chaim 428,7)
17. Tefilla 15,3 (see Rama orach chaim 128,35)
18. Tzitzis end of 3,9 (see Rama orach chaim 17,2)
19. Brachos 1,16 (see Rama orach chaim 215,1)
20. Brachos 4,3 (see Rama orach chaim 178,2)
Sigh, I barely scratched the surface :( I didn't even get to talk about music or eruvin or kashrus or nida (regarding an aspect of the last one, see shu"t chasam sofer yoreh de'ah siman 143 where he says וא"א לעשות להרמב"ם אפילו סניף בעלמא בהא מלתא כי שיטתו דחויה ולא מצאנו ידינו ורגלינו ברוב הסוגיות) not to mention his various letters (standing for aseres hadibros, mazalos, etc) or moreh
The truth is, I now realize that the one Rambam that Jerry was referring to is perhaps talmud Torah 3,10 (#7 on my list) so I should probably add one more to make twenty in addition to his one.
21. Brachos 5,2 (see shulchan aruch orach chaim 197,3 and mishna brura there sif katan 22)
It is tribal thinking/behavior. Which begs comparisons to other human groups who behave similarly. Fundamental Islam comes to mind, especially when invoking G-d’s intentions. The Haredim are just way too small to actually mean what they say. Give it some time and the similarities will emerge.
My apologies, Charles, for not thanking you on you previous post on Grover Cleveland was enlightening - and thanks. An interesting idea of making them pay those who are conscripted. It has a Talmudic air to it ( Baca Batra 144)….
Lol. If you, Jerry Steinfeld, want charedim who DON'T learn to be exempt from the draft too, then clearly your priority is not actually iyun hatorah or avodas hashem.
I don't want that. But can you not see that the chashivus for iyun hatorah and avoda is higher amogst charedim? For all their flaws, do you really not see where they're coming from?
I do believe I see “where they are coming from”, a self-serving, self-regarding, self-deception that safeguards them from the life and death dangers the rest of us face.
How else to comprehend anyone’s equating the burdens of prolonged military service, and its risk of death or injury or marital stress or financial collapse to a risk that “a bochur will be led astray” by “mixing” with the secular or ר״ל dati leumi chevreh? Who dares compare a chareidi worry of POSSIBLE contamination with the nightmare terrors of a parent whose son (or daughter) is serving in REAL(!!) harm’s way?
If anyone thinks these worries are on the same moral plane they are אטומי לב, willfully so in fact, and should be defunded asap.
Avodah means action. They take no action they sit on their butts and drink coffee and thumb sefarim. And claim this equals action.
Avoda means connecting to God which we accomplish through Tefilah.
No it doesn’t it means actual action. Even when we had a beit HaMikdash it meant conducting the service
But the replacement for the beit hamikdash is tefila in the beit knesset. ונשלמה פרים שפתינו. Although I agree that prayer is not enough and השתדלות is required.
Didn't the Erev Rav also learn Torah? - so what are you implying?
Not everyone learning Torah is a good genuine person. I hate to break your bubble.
Did I ever say anything that implies that anyone learning is good and genuine?? All I'm saying is that the way to learn Torah like Reb Moshe Feinstein and the Mishna Berurah is to crack your head open on a sugya and it takes hours of work, frustration, thought, diligence and review. Chashivus for that is important and missing in much of the DL/MO communities. It has gotten better but we are still championing this fight. It has come at a cost, one too great too bear, but at least it should be understood what basket we are putting our eggs in instead of arguing one-sidedly.
There are thousands that finish Shas, learn through the entire Shilchan Aurich, every year or few years. Where exactly do you come up that you have to "Crack your head open" on several lines in the gemorah for 2 months. Is that the only way to learn our heiliga Torah??
I guess you are implying that others nebach get their head cracked open in fighting this just war, and you guys also get your heads cracked open.
Jerry - should I use this as excuse #22, ......... look we get our heads cracked open too.
Let's highlight this comment you just made: It's amazing that people finish Shas and Shulchan Aruch. But to be a posek, one needs to learn the sugya himself. That takes effort and hours and that's the lesson they teach in those formative years in Yeshiva. If it takes a few months to get a sugya clear, so be it, that's not to do with the system, that's because we are stupid/distracted. And surely this shouldn't come at the expense of learning shas and shulchan aruch as a bekius seder, But the main part of the day for a talmid chochom is learning the depths of the sugya, because all those little nuances matter to a psak. If you don't understand this, you just have no idea what is going on in a good yeshiva, or what the purpose of a yeshiva is to begin with. If so, "down with the system" anyways, and what is our discussion about?
If you don't appreciate people like Reb Moshe Feinstein, that's on you.
It is the Haredim who have seceded from Judaism. They worship more than one god: the Real One plus one or more "rabbis". Last time I looked, real Judaism was still monotheistic.
This is a waste of time. The charedim will never agree to join the army because they feel that joining the army will detract from their piety. To them, its existential. They don't care if you call them names, or if you claim to know what type of chesed they should be doing, or whether its milchemes mitzvah. They just don't care; the army is an existential threat to their way of life. The only way to get them to join the army is to convince them that they can keep their piety in the army. Anything else is a waste of time.
IDENTITY THEFT!!! The poster @chanasiegel is using my identity and posting under my name, probably because he was already banned.
This is not Chana Siegel. It's the same guy stealing my identity again.
Natan, can you block the imposter, it's pretty awful.
Heh?
"You don't know what you are talking about" and "you are a bad person" is a pretty standard method of evasion. It's too transparent to be effective. Try another tack.
I'm not a cold person. I feel very strongly for what's happening. The almanos, the yesomim, the dead, the injured, the worried, the sleepless nights, the quiet shabbosos, and on and on.
But the fact that Charedim have a different system where the 18 year olds need to be spending their time engrossed in Hashem's torah in this morally corrupt and godless world is not something to be taken lightly. Which it is by the many other posts on this blog.
You think evolution is helping people feel God's presence? You think your system is something that promotes fear of Heaven? You pour cold water on anything and everything holy, but yet you think your voice is the voice of truth and finality??
"You think evolution is helping people feel God's presence?"
It does me. I am a scientist. Rambam seems to agree that learning about the universe brings one closer to God.
(And I also find time to learn Bavli every day. And Yerushalmi every day.)
It can for some. But for the majority, especially for the ones you guys want to send to the army before they're ripe and ready, it's far more damaging. They don't yet appreciate torah enough to just be exposed all the way.
You, nebech, can't sit and learn, so he sneaks off to waste time on Rabbi Slifkin's blog. Jerry can't even get his own blog, either, so he just insults others. Sad, sad, sad.
I'm not defending myself I shouldn't be here, none of us should. It just bothers me that Slifkin goes on and on and on and on and disparages my people. You wouldn't keep quiet if someone did the same to you.
Absolutely agree with you that "18 year old's need to be spending their time engrossed in Hashem's Torah". That is why my 18 year old son, like yours (if you have one) is spending 14 hours or more a day in the Beit Midrash learning Torah.
However, after 2 or even 5 years learning 14 hours a day, my son will be ready to leave the walls of the Beit midrash and take the Torah that he learnt with him to the army and then into a profession where he will (Please G-d) be able to support his nation and his family.
Can you say the same about the young men from your community, that the Torah they are learning can continue to guide them even when they leave the Beit Midrash, or will they always have the mentality of an 18 year old who cannot step outside the Beit midrash because the morally corrupt and godless world out there.
Do you believe in Torah that cannot guide someone in their life wherever they end up?
I think it should be. But I also think that having a foot out the door can have a detrimental affect in the learning. (For some or many, I'm sure your son is fine...)
Not sure what you mean my "one foot out the door", but the knowledge that your time learning is limited can also have the opposite effect.
My son keeps reminding me that he needs to make the most of this year and next as this may be the only chance he has to 100% immerse himself in Talmud Torah without other distractions.
The fact that he knows that next year (or possibly the following year) he will have less time to sit and learn makes him appreciate the time he has now, and encourages him to not waste a single second.
True, but at the same time, there are so many nuances to pick up when learning in depth. In order to be able to sit and focus on the nuances properly, with exceptions, one needs to be in it for the long run.
“Voice of truth and finality”? That degree of arrogant certainty is the preserve of self-righteous, self-absorbed chareidim (admittedly NOT ALL chareidim) who refuse so much as to say a מי שברך for the hundreds of thousands, nay millions, of their brothers and sisters suffering horribly in defense of our land and people.
One of these days the nausea induced by this repulsive attitude is going end up vomiting the chareidi mafia from the country, when both the center, right, and left zionist parties no longer need the chareidi parties for coalition purposes. Someday a popular outcry will force this.
No need to expel anyone. So simple to do. Just end the budget extortions for phony “masmidim” and phony kollelim, and they will vanish from the scene כהרף עין. Only true בני תורה will remain, and then they will enjoy renewed respect, love even, from the rest of עם ישראל. Because contrary to what many gedoilim say, the revulsion is not for the Torah but for those who abuse the Torah for their selfish benefits. The disgust is most strongly felt by ציונים דתיים who love Torah, more than by חילונים.
but mant datim leumim dont feel this disgust. For example the avreichim in the Har Hamor kollel where i live.
…except when they are sitting shiv’a. My friends 40 year old are on the front in Lebanon…..for months.
Right but These avreichim are also serving in gaza and Lebanon.
So instead why don't we all chill and learn from each other instead of each side complaining about the other? Both sides have reason to be nauseous about the other and both sides should look into the mirror and become nauseous themselves. I am sickened by the lack of heart I see in my community. I live and respect that you guys are unbelievable in the area. I left Lakewood because I couldn't stand the sickening unfriendliness and selfish attitude that sticks out in the street. But I am equally respectful of their commitment to torah and halacha like no other, and although Lakewood is not for me, I consider it an amazing place. At the same time I love the "out of townie," MO communities to live in, but they don't respect torah enough. Which is actually fine by me- until they start badmouthing the whole Lakewood because they don't get it. That's what bothers me about this super one-sided, mean and vulgar, Charedi-bashing self-righteous blog-site.
I don't love the rhetoric either, but people are in pain. I'm not sure it's acceptable for you to ask the to "chill" when their husbands/fathers/children/cousins/friends are taking on so much. You can have differences of opinion (I very much do), but you need to understand their grievances as well, or respectfully, you're as much to blame about the one-sidedness as they are.
Think of it as hostage family members pressuring the state to release 5 thousand terrorists for their loved one. pain goes a long way, but for people who claim being objective there can be an answer.
I don't badmouth Lakewood. I have actually never visited.
Given your commenting style here, I might venture to guess that Lakewood people had good reason to be unfriendly to you : Your arrogance, judgementalism, and cruelty.
Your comments consistently drip with all the above.
Were you my neighbor, I'd avoid you as well.
Lol. To be clear, the way I see it, Slifkin is the one who's badmouthing and I'm just responding to his vitriol.
Lol.
Exactly.
It's not that you respond, it's HOW you respond.
You come across, my friend as a creepy arrogant cruel, and judgemental person who I would avoid contact with as well. Don't blame your former neighbors in Lakewood. Rather look in the mirror.
"I left Lakewood because I couldn't stand the sickening unfriendliness and selfish attitude that sticks out in the street. But I am equally respectful of their commitment to torah and halacha like no other"
You think torah and halacha are OK with being unfriendly and selfish?
Not at all, that is anti-Torah! But different communities stress different things more than others and in this area they are weak.
Would you support 28 year old Haredim getting drafted? This gives them 10 years of full time learning, on top of cheder + yeshiva katana before they start army service. Would that work?
Something like that would be great!
28 is too old
I think if thousands of charedim joined at 28, that would be great, no?
It would be an improvement. Armies have good reasons for starting them younger. And you just know the Charedi communities would find ways to delay until the guys were too old for Army service. Start them off 18-20 like everyone else
In merkaz and har hamor they draft at 27
And they are a small, self-selecting elite, all of whom learn seriously.
Right. But its a good start for chareidim who are serious.
Do you feel that evolution (and other scientific and historical matters) is simply a choice, to be accepted or waved away at whim or to suit your other beliefs?
I think evolution probably happened, but for most people it pours cold water on the magnificence of creation. I think the book harmed more people than it helped even though it's probably true (I say probably because I know nothing about tziruf ha'osiyos and how the kabalists seem to explain creation matters).
The opposite is true. When you really understand the nature of HaShem's creation you marvel even more. The Biblical Literalist understanding (which is a Christian thing and not a Jewish thing.and is rejected by most Christians) limits God!
For the few who know how to toe the line, sure. But for many, including many people here, it's unfortunately cold water:(
Pragmatism is not a Charedi stance.
It's a question of when to teach these things.
From what I hear, what pours cold water on people's belief is when they happen to come across strong arguments for things like evolution or the existence of dinosaurs, and they are told to deny this to themselves and others.
"But the fact that Charedim have a different system where the 18 year olds need to be spending their time engrossed in Hashem's torah"
Yes, except when a war needs to be fought, which is why the age for soldiers in the Torah is 18-60!
20-60
Same difference : )
Last I checked they draft at 18, which some hold is forbidden for a government to force service under 20 as the torah says (volunteering is different). so you just switched what the torah says. That's not the same
Why must the 18 yr old fight? Why not the 28-60 year olds?
If you lie about the age of the universe, evolution, and whatever other physical realities religious fundamentalists prefer to ignore, it is damaging to both your credibility and your spiritual health.
We don't lie; it's just not important. Avodas Hashem and what He says inthe Torah is important.
For what it's worth, my understanding of the clip posted above (without hearing any context) is that Rav Hirsch wasn't saying that it's the chessed of the yeshiva students that supports the country, he was saying their status as bnei yeshiva, which is meant to allow them to grow in learning, yiras shamayim, middos, and chessed, that supports the country, essentially reiterating what he had said a few seconds earlier in the clip.
Speaking as an outsider to the community, my sense is that the Chareidi community incorporates gemilus chassadim as a value that they do express, but individually/intracommunally rather than nationally, which is what Rav Aharon Lichtenstein described in Ideology of Hesder.
BINGO !
I have been keeping score on the excuses the Charedim Draft Dodgers, as to why they should not have to go to the Army. I was stuck at 20 for a while.
However, Buroch Hashem today I saw another one from a Yair Nehorai.
He claims if the Charedim go to the army they will have re-make the army to cater to them. Kosher food, no Girls, with Shabbos observance, etc.. This will hurt the Chlonim from keeping their free lifestyle, and it. would be discrimination against them. We have NO right to do that to the poor Chlonim!
We are Up to 21 now!!! ............ Keep them coming don't stop
it's a real challenge we need to think about-whats the future of our country. unfortunately neither side is really coming up with a solution.
The behavior of army policies which put soldiers in danger to save enemy Civilians is disgraceful as well. So is the willingness to throw jews out of their homes and give away land to our enemies just to buy a few years of peace. The side who is most strident in גיוס חרדים seems to be the side which is less connected to Israel in many ways.
“Connected to Israel”? That isn’t the prerogative of one side or the other(s) in the political debate about יו״ש aka The West Bank aka “the shtoochim”.
If you refer to יוש as the west bank of Jordan or the שטחים הכבושים than you've got a serious Jewish identity problem.
It's (long) overdue that Yeshiva students were compelled to perform either military or other national service. But as much as I detest pitting one observant Jewish side against another, they need to step up to the plate. Failing that, then benefits that they might get should be cut or cut out.
Section 109 of the Israeli PENAL CODE states:
"Whoever incites or persuades a person obligated to serve in the armed forces not to serve or not to appear for military action, shall be punished with five years in prison."
Why are they not picking up this so called Rabbi.??
It is unbecoming for charedim to take, or rather, demand others pay to support the charedim lifestyle. Also, per halacha, citizens of a country are supposed to follow the law of the land they reside in (with a few exceptions). Per halacha and for the avoidance of chillil hashem charedim must contribute in a substantial way to the defense of the land.
Running off to US and Canada during a a war, is certainly the height of chesed......
Bizarre comment, advanced by someone who doesn't have a logical or moral argument to make.
He's a civilian.
Rbbi Slivkin, Why are you shocked? - nothing shocks me anymore from these self centered people and their leaders. The only lower thing is when they declare that going to protect the Yidden in Eretz Yisoel is a sin if they do do it with learning.
This is also not far off.
I am coming to the conclusion that Israel is better off if these no goodnik, selfish draft dodger were not there. Isn't there another place in the world where they can go, and leave Eretz Yisroel for those who love it?
חגי לובר (ציונות דתית) ששכל את בנו יהונתן ב"חרבות ברזל", כותב לו הבוקר על "מצוות העריקות":
שמעת יהונתן?
יש מצווה חדשה בתורה.
"מצווה להיות עריק"
איך פספסת את המצווה הזו כשהסתערת על האוייב?
איך לא ידעת, כשהגנת בגופך על נשים ילדים וזקנים, שאתה עובר על מצווה?
חשבת שיש מצוות פיקוח נפש.
חשבת שאתה מקיים מלחמת מצווה.
חשבת שאתה עושה רצון ה'.
טעית.
יש מצווה אחרת גדולה יותר,
שלמה יותר, מפורשת כנראה בספר כלשהו שפספסת.
מצוות העריקות.
מצווה שהייתה מאפשרת לך לחיות.
ולהוריך לא להתאבל ולכאוב.
ולאשתך לא להיות אלמנה מתגעגעת.
ולילדיך לא להיות יתומים ללא אב.
המצווה להיות עריק.
לא התייעצת עם גדולי תורה "נכונים"
שמעת לדוד המלך לאברהם אבינו וליהושוע.
טעית.
מצווה להיות עריק.
אז חבל שאתה לא מתהדר בכותרת 'ליטאי'.
(איך אפשר להקרא על שם עם אנטישמי ורוצח שרק הזכרת שמו העבירה צמרמורת בקרב יהודים בשואה?)
חבל שאתה לא נולדת לאלו שכן מקיימים מצווה.
מצוות עריקות.
חיית בטעות.
מתת בטעות.
אבל,
הטעות הזו מקנה לך מקום של כבוד על כנפי השכינה.
ובזכות הטעות הזו הליטאים יכולים ללמוד בלי הפרעה.
ובגלל שטעית ילדים יכולים להגיע לגיל לבר מצווה.
ונשים יכולות ללדת בבטחה.
ואברכים להתפלל בקול ענות חלושה.
והרשה לי כבוד הרב לעוץ לך עצה.
הכאב שהסבת לי ולרבים אחרים גדול מנשוא.
אם זו לא הונאת דברים, אני כנראה לא מבין כלום בהלכה.
ולכן, אנא דבר על חשיבות לימוד התורה.
על הצורך בבחורים שילמדו בלי הפסקה.
ואל תקטין 'על הדרך' את המצווה הגדולה.
שעליהם מסרו נפשם כל כך רבים.
כל כך שלמים.
כל כך תלמידי חכמים.
כל כך יראי שמים ואוהבי ה'.
אנא.
לבנו פצוע.
ומתוך שדמעתנו מצויה,
אונאתנו קרובה,
וצערינו בוקע שמים ומגיע עד כיסא הכבוד.
ואתם, אחי החרדים וכבוד רבכם,
לפחות בואו לחלוק לבני יהונתן כבוד באזכרה של 12 חודש, ביא' בכסליו בהר הרצל.
לעלות לקברו, קבר צדיק,
להתוועד ולשמוע עליו סיפורי אמונה ויראה.
ולהתחזק.
כל כך להתחזק.
(וכמובן גם חילוניים וציוניים דתיים מוזמנים באהבה)
חגי לובר
אב למקיים מצווה
השקולה כנגד תרי"ג.
By the way, all this time, some young haredi men are making the individual decision to go into the IDF. Some older ones, as well, even if "only" for shlav bet. Haredi men are signing up for kitot konnenut to protect their neighborhoods, like those groups of civilians on border kibbutzim and moshavim that were able to defend themselves on Oct 7.
Just like haredi women kept going out to learn well-paying professions to support their families and keep their husbands in learning, while certain "gdolim" proclaimed that getting a degree was asur. These are not foolish people, and they are still faithful people.
"After all, even though Israel existed for decades, through the challenges of ‘48 and the 50s and ‘67, without a hundred thousand charedim in yeshiva"
After all even though Israel existed for decades, through the challenges of ‘48 and the 50s and ‘67, without a hundred thousand bochurim in the army???
Again I ask, is it time that the IDF pull protection for all chareidi communities? We would find out very shortly who is doing the chessed for who...