Natan, you know that's not true. The real reason the charedim don't join the IDF is that they rationally believe that their children will go OTD from the army. They really, really believe this. Why do you make up lies about them?
The only way to convince them to join the IDF, is by convincing them that their children won't go OTD.
Natan, are you really a rationalist? Why do you make stuff up about the charedim?
1. The reason no one wants to serve in a military is the simple fact that one can get injured and even killed there. Parents don't want their children to serve for the same reason. People serve not only because it's the law, but because it's their country and their people and they see it as necessary. (And because 18-year-olds think they're immortal and are macho.)
2. The reason charedim don't serve isn't because they think their learning protects. That's not so much because they *don't* believe that (even though they obviously don't), but because they don't even think of it- they don't care. See below. That's just PR. The reason is not because they think it's "bittul Torah", that's just an excuse to keep bochrim in their seats. And no, the reason is not because they're worried the kids will go "off the derech." To admit that would be to admit that the charedi educational system does a lousy job of instilling yirat shamayim (although it might well do such a lousy job), and they can't admit that. The only "derech" they're worried about is that a serving and working charedi will no longer vote for UTJ.
3. The reason charedim don't serve is, simply, because they have never made their peace with the very existence of the State of Israel. Like the anti-Israel crowd, they see it as a sinful aberration that (chas v'shalom) will be gone one day. Period. This is true of all of them- it's what *makes* them charedi. The State of Israel does not match the fantasies that some Jews built up over the years of how the geulah will come (never mind that the contents of those fantasies contradict Chazal and the very existence of them contradict the Rambam), and so it can't be good and it can't be real. So why support something they see as temporary at best, the work of the Great Tempter at worse?
So: You don't want your kid to get hurt. You don't think the State- or even the People- of Israel are anything to go out of one's way for. And lo and behold, the government tells you that because of an accident of birth, you don't have to do it! What option would you choose?
Pull out prop three and you'll start seeing real change, and maybe prop two will fall eventually. Prop one never will, because that's human nature, but there's no need for it to fall. As Patton would tell him men, anyone who tells you they're not scared of battle is lying. Everyone's scared. The question is what you do with it. Secular and Traditional and Dati Israelis push on, because their land and people have to be defended. Charedim take the fright and embrace it.
"The reason charedim don't serve is, simply, because they have never made their peace with the very existence of the State of Israel."
Wow, the Charedim are so successful in their historical fiction that they even got you roped in. Of course, a large percentage of Charedi Rabbis and Charedim did much more than make their peace with the existence of the state of Israel. There are many. many examples, but to make this short: I'll just mention a couple of key ones: Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach was a key Charedi poseik who favored the Heter Mechirah and was very supportive of the state. The Gerrer Rebbe was a "zionist" Chasid and my Gerrer neighbor did Sherut Leumi growing up. On the sefardi side (they are somehow now charedim) they were all supportive of the State until recent times, ROY being just one. (Some others: Rav Elyashiv was a dayan and Rav AI Kook was the pre-state leader of the non-Eidah litvish camp).
Which all makes sense because Charedim *did* serve in the army save some exemptions. This universal heter to avoid the draft started when the Begin and the Likud finally got control of the govt and offered them more universal exemptions.
This is multi-determined, but the main reason they don't go is as you said: it's a draft and if you exempt me, then I'm exempt. Once that culture exists, it is much harder to remove.
So if you feel you have to blame groups, then you have to include the Likud who got this started and continues to protect them. As well as the RZ who have partial sympathy with the notion of Torah exemption for the Army. The groups who have been working to stop this for some years now have been in the dreaded center-left.
I don't think most RZ individuals have much sympathy for the Haredi (nothing "Torah" about it) exemption from the army.
Parts of the RZ leadership have been willing to go along (up to a point) with Haredi draft exemptions as a quid-pro-quo for things on their agenda. Note that i say "their" agenda, and not "our", because never has there been more daylight between the RZ leadership and the views of much of the RZ community. I'm hoping and assuming that those gaps will be addressed at the ballot box as soon as we have a chance.
No, there are certainly elements in the RZ world, mostly at the very top levels of chardalim, who have a serious inferiority complex vis a vis the charedim and are sympathetic to them not serving. R' Aviner writes this explicitly every now and then- that charedim are the ideal form of Judaism and they have a point about Zionism. And I sometimes think Smotrich has absorbed this as well.
This is a tiny minority- the chardalim could never even win one Knesset seat on their own (nor, for that matter, could the left-wing RZ)- but they have a lot of power.
Your argument was that they they are not in the army because they never accepted the state. A lot of those who would later become "the haredim" (non-Eidah) 100% accepted it and wanted it. Zionism was a secular dominated ideology that they kept separate from, right or wrong.
Your point about the sephardim is spot in and why the explanation of "never accepting the state" isn't what happened. They *always* accepted the state and were Zionist. The great Sephardic poskim took the Chief Rabbi position. It was only much later that they some switched to Charedi ideology and became anti-draft. So "never accepting the state" can't possibly be an explanation of why they are anti-draft now. Positions have hardened for political reasons. It is probably more accurate to say that they identify with the Charedim because the draft issue forced them there.
Rav Kook was 100% part of what later became the Charedi world. Read Marc Shapiro's book on censorship. They had to excise his haskamos from many, many sefarim as well as excising his name from the biographies of charedim who he influenced. There were so many from that group who were not part of the Zionist camp but 100% supported the state. Rav Isser Zalman Meltzer, Rav Tvi Pesach Frank, Rav Aryeh Levin. You've been influenced by the modern charedi rewrite of history that makes it seem like they all go back to R Zonnenfeld. Rav Elyashiv wasn't some Zionist who rebelled and suddenly became a Charedi. He was part of that whole "charedi" group and was the one that changed their plan of attack to take over the Rabbanut.
There definitely were more anti-zionist leaning charedim like the Steipler. But don't buy the whole Charedi pseudo-history of where they came from.
Oh, I blame the Likud and RZ party too, don't you worry. (Never voted for either.)
But no, I'm afraid you're off in your analysis. Of course charedim used to serve. But once they didn't have to, they took advantage at least partly because they had an issue with Israel. There are plenty of people who don't have to serve who still do out of conviction. Bedouin, Arab Christians, some non-Bedouin Muslims, dati women, disabled people, kids with Down's, and yes, charedim. The bulk of charedim don't serve for a combination of reasons, but non-Zionism is one.
R' Shlomo Zalman was an exception on a lot of levels, but come on, he wasn't exactly a Zionist. Nor was the Gerrer. The Sephardim weren't charedim *until* Shas was founded. (And of course that's not most Sephardim.) For that matter, "charedi" as we think of it didn't exist until the 1970's or so. R' Elyashiv was stam dati until he had his fit and quit. R' Kook was not at all the head of any charedi faction. Etc. etc.
A well written good reply, that sums it all up- thank You Nuchem.
# 3 was not always there. Satmar, NK and Hamas had that ideology from the start.
Now these guys jumped on it because of reason 1 and 2
It all start from i don't want my kids exposed to danger - let others do it.
Believe me it is not long before the chlonim say it if you are scared to go, just enroll in a yeshivah or virtual yeshiva, claim you are learning and you will not be obligated to go.
What happens then?? is it all over?? or once that hit the fan real change will come, Time will tell.
Oh, of course they weren't exactly Satmar or the like. In 1948 almost all of what we'd think of as the "charedi" leaders were very positive and happy about what happened. And then the crazies talked them out of it, one way or another.
I’m going to point at the all people approaching retirement age who have gotten completely bent out of shape by facebook groups pushing weird conspiracy theories.
I don’t think it does any good to assume people are incapable of change - or immune to propaganda - for any reason
Nonsense. If that were the case they would do everything they could other than putting on a uniform. They would visit wounded soldiers, do the jobs that are going begging, volunteer to pick crops, and a hundred other things. Instead they spit on the heroes and fress even more of the lifeblood of the country. They demand that the children of people who do the hard dangerous work die so that Charedi neighborhoods get extra protection.
By the way, there's a much greater chance of going OTD in a gentile army, and yet official charedi sources love to talk about frum soldiers in World War II and the like.
Why cant you convince them they wont go off the derech. Good luck
Can we use his excuse should the American people have a existential threat, and we need people to join. If a frum guy gets a draft notice can he say okay - i don't have to go because of OTD, the next guy will claim the army will make him wild and will cause him to commit crimes. The next one will lose all his independence and will become a basket case, in an institution the rest of his life. Are these excuses?
Pure ahavas Yisroel and selflessness from MK Porush. He's not demanding it for HIS community and HIS voters. Chollila!! He's demanding this on behalf of his non-Charedi brethren!
Porush's voters need no protection from terrorists, only from the draft.
I'm pretty sure that the only people he was demanding on behalf of were those who did not vote for him, that security be beefed up in Rechavia, Baka, etc.
I can't tell if this is satire or not. If he's demanding protection for non-Charedim he should instead be demanding that Charedim learn more Torah to protect them, through pure ahavas Yisroel
Here’s an idea: since the army is so stressed for manpower, lacking thousands of soldiers (dead and injured) while trying to fight on multiple fronts simultaneously, the large vulnerable charedi communities of Beitar Illit and Modiin Illit should be responsible for their own perimeter security, with selected individuals from the community undergoing an intensive training course and being properly outfitted with weapons and protective gear, and rotating through shmira shifts 24/7.
Here's an even better idea: strip those blasted parasites of their citizenship and make them reclaim it by enlisting, and then send them into the thickest fighting to winnow their numbers.
I wouldn’t go that far…. But a “no representation without participation” law which would link voting privileges with mandatory service would go a long way in redressing these inequities.
There you go again. Instead of just reporting on this curious fervor for encouraging state hishtadlus on their behalf, you're taking the cynical leap to use lashon ha'ra to explain their motives. Is it really so evident that their whole game is to manipulate non-chareidim to do the dirty work in their lives? Perhaps its more about assessing where they believe their hishtadlus is truly needed. As bona fide citizens of Jm, they may just be exercising their due rights by making these demands. Doing so doesn't threaten the integrity of what they believe is a G-d given way of life. Enlisting in the army does.
I know that's how you see it. But its a cynical leap. NO one in the chareidi world is "asking" anyone to fight for them. Not even suggesting. It is what it is, and the State has chosen to make an army that does quite a good job of physically defending us, bH, but no real effort to care of our spiritual needs. Much of the army directly challenges it. So the Chareidim say sorry, we can't participate... but thank you for all you do that results in protecting us.
Actually, that last line is what I'd WANT THEM TO SAY. I believe that the majority of charedim really feel that, but their leaders say shush, for political calculations to protect the vulnerable in their camps. I understand but dont agree with that. Still, it's far from saying they're ASKING for other's sacrifices!
It's not the State's job to see to your spiritual needs. It is the State's job to defend you from enemies. And we have enemies, whether you like it or not. By living here- and the vast majority of charedim descend from people who came to Israel *after* 1948- charedim are asking for that defense. That they don't see a need to contribute is a shanda.
You seem to have a secular view of what a Jewish state should be. You're right. Others understand differently. A good question is why charedi leaders are not trying to spiritually improve the IDF. or find non military ways to contribute. I know, I know, the cynical view that they're just parasites. I dont believe its so simple.
"It's not the State's job to see to your spiritual needs. It is the State's job to defend you from enemies."
"You seem to have a secular view of what a Jewish state should be"
Is the Jewish view 100% opposite? Are there points of intersection? Are you saying that a Jewish State should not defend against enemies? What is the full name of הלכות מלכים? In ברכות ג, is דוד המלך not involved in the mundane manner of running a country?
That's not a secular view, it's a libertarian and realistic one. Sure it should be spiritual, but if you're going to look to government for the ultimate solution to these sorts of things you're going to be in trouble.
You want to "improve spiritual needs" in the army? THEN GO AND DRAFT and improve spiritual needs inside. After all, you are clearly so spiritually elevated that you would be perfect for the job right?
Tell me what gives a group of people the authority to dictate that one's body is anothers property. Conscription is slavery and has no place in a modern "enlightened" society. Charedim are opposing the draft for the wrong reasons: the IDF purity of arms doctrine is anti Torah. Dati Leumi parents wouldn't bitch about charedim not dying if the IDF had a policy of winning. Everyone is so confused about this whole issue. Same with the welfare benefits issues: all coercion based redistribution programs can never work. In summary: conscription is theft, taxation is armed robbery, democracy is dementia, statism is idolatry. But muh "who will pay for the roads and water?" If people want it and are willing to pay, the free market will provide.
Does the situation maybe remind one of the ship Yonah HaNavi was in during the storm? The storm Israel is now experiencing. Yonah HaNavi asleep in the bottom of the ship is the Hareidim. Should someone wake them up to ask if they have a solution to stop the storm?
Are they represented in the government? Because have their input or ideas for a better decision been requested? Have they a better solution than those who made the decisions leading up until now?
They need the police resources to protect the ones that are trying to stop the Torah learning. As they won’t be protected from the Torah learning. And Chareidy Jewry cares about all Jews, even the ones that try to hinder themselves
They do their hishtadlut as long as they do not have to Chas veshalom sacrifice themselves by serving in the army.
Natan, you know that's not true. The real reason the charedim don't join the IDF is that they rationally believe that their children will go OTD from the army. They really, really believe this. Why do you make up lies about them?
The only way to convince them to join the IDF, is by convincing them that their children won't go OTD.
Natan, are you really a rationalist? Why do you make stuff up about the charedim?
OK, let's lay out some facts here:
1. The reason no one wants to serve in a military is the simple fact that one can get injured and even killed there. Parents don't want their children to serve for the same reason. People serve not only because it's the law, but because it's their country and their people and they see it as necessary. (And because 18-year-olds think they're immortal and are macho.)
2. The reason charedim don't serve isn't because they think their learning protects. That's not so much because they *don't* believe that (even though they obviously don't), but because they don't even think of it- they don't care. See below. That's just PR. The reason is not because they think it's "bittul Torah", that's just an excuse to keep bochrim in their seats. And no, the reason is not because they're worried the kids will go "off the derech." To admit that would be to admit that the charedi educational system does a lousy job of instilling yirat shamayim (although it might well do such a lousy job), and they can't admit that. The only "derech" they're worried about is that a serving and working charedi will no longer vote for UTJ.
3. The reason charedim don't serve is, simply, because they have never made their peace with the very existence of the State of Israel. Like the anti-Israel crowd, they see it as a sinful aberration that (chas v'shalom) will be gone one day. Period. This is true of all of them- it's what *makes* them charedi. The State of Israel does not match the fantasies that some Jews built up over the years of how the geulah will come (never mind that the contents of those fantasies contradict Chazal and the very existence of them contradict the Rambam), and so it can't be good and it can't be real. So why support something they see as temporary at best, the work of the Great Tempter at worse?
So: You don't want your kid to get hurt. You don't think the State- or even the People- of Israel are anything to go out of one's way for. And lo and behold, the government tells you that because of an accident of birth, you don't have to do it! What option would you choose?
Pull out prop three and you'll start seeing real change, and maybe prop two will fall eventually. Prop one never will, because that's human nature, but there's no need for it to fall. As Patton would tell him men, anyone who tells you they're not scared of battle is lying. Everyone's scared. The question is what you do with it. Secular and Traditional and Dati Israelis push on, because their land and people have to be defended. Charedim take the fright and embrace it.
"The reason charedim don't serve is, simply, because they have never made their peace with the very existence of the State of Israel."
Wow, the Charedim are so successful in their historical fiction that they even got you roped in. Of course, a large percentage of Charedi Rabbis and Charedim did much more than make their peace with the existence of the state of Israel. There are many. many examples, but to make this short: I'll just mention a couple of key ones: Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach was a key Charedi poseik who favored the Heter Mechirah and was very supportive of the state. The Gerrer Rebbe was a "zionist" Chasid and my Gerrer neighbor did Sherut Leumi growing up. On the sefardi side (they are somehow now charedim) they were all supportive of the State until recent times, ROY being just one. (Some others: Rav Elyashiv was a dayan and Rav AI Kook was the pre-state leader of the non-Eidah litvish camp).
Which all makes sense because Charedim *did* serve in the army save some exemptions. This universal heter to avoid the draft started when the Begin and the Likud finally got control of the govt and offered them more universal exemptions.
This is multi-determined, but the main reason they don't go is as you said: it's a draft and if you exempt me, then I'm exempt. Once that culture exists, it is much harder to remove.
So if you feel you have to blame groups, then you have to include the Likud who got this started and continues to protect them. As well as the RZ who have partial sympathy with the notion of Torah exemption for the Army. The groups who have been working to stop this for some years now have been in the dreaded center-left.
I don't think most RZ individuals have much sympathy for the Haredi (nothing "Torah" about it) exemption from the army.
Parts of the RZ leadership have been willing to go along (up to a point) with Haredi draft exemptions as a quid-pro-quo for things on their agenda. Note that i say "their" agenda, and not "our", because never has there been more daylight between the RZ leadership and the views of much of the RZ community. I'm hoping and assuming that those gaps will be addressed at the ballot box as soon as we have a chance.
No, there are certainly elements in the RZ world, mostly at the very top levels of chardalim, who have a serious inferiority complex vis a vis the charedim and are sympathetic to them not serving. R' Aviner writes this explicitly every now and then- that charedim are the ideal form of Judaism and they have a point about Zionism. And I sometimes think Smotrich has absorbed this as well.
This is a tiny minority- the chardalim could never even win one Knesset seat on their own (nor, for that matter, could the left-wing RZ)- but they have a lot of power.
Your argument was that they they are not in the army because they never accepted the state. A lot of those who would later become "the haredim" (non-Eidah) 100% accepted it and wanted it. Zionism was a secular dominated ideology that they kept separate from, right or wrong.
Your point about the sephardim is spot in and why the explanation of "never accepting the state" isn't what happened. They *always* accepted the state and were Zionist. The great Sephardic poskim took the Chief Rabbi position. It was only much later that they some switched to Charedi ideology and became anti-draft. So "never accepting the state" can't possibly be an explanation of why they are anti-draft now. Positions have hardened for political reasons. It is probably more accurate to say that they identify with the Charedim because the draft issue forced them there.
Rav Kook was 100% part of what later became the Charedi world. Read Marc Shapiro's book on censorship. They had to excise his haskamos from many, many sefarim as well as excising his name from the biographies of charedim who he influenced. There were so many from that group who were not part of the Zionist camp but 100% supported the state. Rav Isser Zalman Meltzer, Rav Tvi Pesach Frank, Rav Aryeh Levin. You've been influenced by the modern charedi rewrite of history that makes it seem like they all go back to R Zonnenfeld. Rav Elyashiv wasn't some Zionist who rebelled and suddenly became a Charedi. He was part of that whole "charedi" group and was the one that changed their plan of attack to take over the Rabbanut.
There definitely were more anti-zionist leaning charedim like the Steipler. But don't buy the whole Charedi pseudo-history of where they came from.
Oh, I blame the Likud and RZ party too, don't you worry. (Never voted for either.)
But no, I'm afraid you're off in your analysis. Of course charedim used to serve. But once they didn't have to, they took advantage at least partly because they had an issue with Israel. There are plenty of people who don't have to serve who still do out of conviction. Bedouin, Arab Christians, some non-Bedouin Muslims, dati women, disabled people, kids with Down's, and yes, charedim. The bulk of charedim don't serve for a combination of reasons, but non-Zionism is one.
R' Shlomo Zalman was an exception on a lot of levels, but come on, he wasn't exactly a Zionist. Nor was the Gerrer. The Sephardim weren't charedim *until* Shas was founded. (And of course that's not most Sephardim.) For that matter, "charedi" as we think of it didn't exist until the 1970's or so. R' Elyashiv was stam dati until he had his fit and quit. R' Kook was not at all the head of any charedi faction. Etc. etc.
A well written good reply, that sums it all up- thank You Nuchem.
# 3 was not always there. Satmar, NK and Hamas had that ideology from the start.
Now these guys jumped on it because of reason 1 and 2
It all start from i don't want my kids exposed to danger - let others do it.
Believe me it is not long before the chlonim say it if you are scared to go, just enroll in a yeshivah or virtual yeshiva, claim you are learning and you will not be obligated to go.
What happens then?? is it all over?? or once that hit the fan real change will come, Time will tell.
Oh, of course they weren't exactly Satmar or the like. In 1948 almost all of what we'd think of as the "charedi" leaders were very positive and happy about what happened. And then the crazies talked them out of it, one way or another.
“18-year-olds think they're immortal and are macho.”
Former 18 year old here - can confirm
That's why armies tend to limit recruits to a narrow age range. At about 26 the brain hardens up and you can't be shaped.
I’m going to point at the all people approaching retirement age who have gotten completely bent out of shape by facebook groups pushing weird conspiracy theories.
I don’t think it does any good to assume people are incapable of change - or immune to propaganda - for any reason
That's not the same thing as willing running toward people who are shooting at you.
Nonsense. If that were the case they would do everything they could other than putting on a uniform. They would visit wounded soldiers, do the jobs that are going begging, volunteer to pick crops, and a hundred other things. Instead they spit on the heroes and fress even more of the lifeblood of the country. They demand that the children of people who do the hard dangerous work die so that Charedi neighborhoods get extra protection.
By the way, there's a much greater chance of going OTD in a gentile army, and yet official charedi sources love to talk about frum soldiers in World War II and the like.
Why cant you convince them they wont go off the derech. Good luck
Can we use his excuse should the American people have a existential threat, and we need people to join. If a frum guy gets a draft notice can he say okay - i don't have to go because of OTD, the next guy will claim the army will make him wild and will cause him to commit crimes. The next one will lose all his independence and will become a basket case, in an institution the rest of his life. Are these excuses?
See how silly your argument is
right on
Pure ahavas Yisroel and selflessness from MK Porush. He's not demanding it for HIS community and HIS voters. Chollila!! He's demanding this on behalf of his non-Charedi brethren!
Porush's voters need no protection from terrorists, only from the draft.
I'm pretty sure that the only people he was demanding on behalf of were those who did not vote for him, that security be beefed up in Rechavia, Baka, etc.
No?
I can't tell if this is satire or not. If he's demanding protection for non-Charedim he should instead be demanding that Charedim learn more Torah to protect them, through pure ahavas Yisroel
Thats what I’m saying!
Right!
But there might be a difference in intent.
(See Poe's Law)
Here’s an idea: since the army is so stressed for manpower, lacking thousands of soldiers (dead and injured) while trying to fight on multiple fronts simultaneously, the large vulnerable charedi communities of Beitar Illit and Modiin Illit should be responsible for their own perimeter security, with selected individuals from the community undergoing an intensive training course and being properly outfitted with weapons and protective gear, and rotating through shmira shifts 24/7.
Here's an even better idea: strip those blasted parasites of their citizenship and make them reclaim it by enlisting, and then send them into the thickest fighting to winnow their numbers.
I wouldn’t go that far…. But a “no representation without participation” law which would link voting privileges with mandatory service would go a long way in redressing these inequities.
Thanks for not spinning the release of terrorists for your own purposes of maligning charedim. We are very proud of you.
I'm pretty sure it was Porush who brought it up, not Slifkin.
There you go again. Instead of just reporting on this curious fervor for encouraging state hishtadlus on their behalf, you're taking the cynical leap to use lashon ha'ra to explain their motives. Is it really so evident that their whole game is to manipulate non-chareidim to do the dirty work in their lives? Perhaps its more about assessing where they believe their hishtadlus is truly needed. As bona fide citizens of Jm, they may just be exercising their due rights by making these demands. Doing so doesn't threaten the integrity of what they believe is a G-d given way of life. Enlisting in the army does.
They're asking others to sacrifice on their behalf not just "the integrity of their way of life", but their very life itself!
I know that's how you see it. But its a cynical leap. NO one in the chareidi world is "asking" anyone to fight for them. Not even suggesting. It is what it is, and the State has chosen to make an army that does quite a good job of physically defending us, bH, but no real effort to care of our spiritual needs. Much of the army directly challenges it. So the Chareidim say sorry, we can't participate... but thank you for all you do that results in protecting us.
Actually, that last line is what I'd WANT THEM TO SAY. I believe that the majority of charedim really feel that, but their leaders say shush, for political calculations to protect the vulnerable in their camps. I understand but dont agree with that. Still, it's far from saying they're ASKING for other's sacrifices!
It's not the State's job to see to your spiritual needs. It is the State's job to defend you from enemies. And we have enemies, whether you like it or not. By living here- and the vast majority of charedim descend from people who came to Israel *after* 1948- charedim are asking for that defense. That they don't see a need to contribute is a shanda.
You seem to have a secular view of what a Jewish state should be. You're right. Others understand differently. A good question is why charedi leaders are not trying to spiritually improve the IDF. or find non military ways to contribute. I know, I know, the cynical view that they're just parasites. I dont believe its so simple.
It does not need to be "spiritually improved" anymore than it already has been for a certain class if frum, committed Hesder students do just fine.
great. So then stop harassing the Chareidim. Theyre not hesder! Very different, legit derekh.
"It's not the State's job to see to your spiritual needs. It is the State's job to defend you from enemies."
"You seem to have a secular view of what a Jewish state should be"
Is the Jewish view 100% opposite? Are there points of intersection? Are you saying that a Jewish State should not defend against enemies? What is the full name of הלכות מלכים? In ברכות ג, is דוד המלך not involved in the mundane manner of running a country?
That's not a secular view, it's a libertarian and realistic one. Sure it should be spiritual, but if you're going to look to government for the ultimate solution to these sorts of things you're going to be in trouble.
i get your point as long as they say 'Thank You" they don't have to serve. A parasite does not say thank you, so we can't call 'em that
Soldiers are needed, not thank yous. This isn't the US.
You want to "improve spiritual needs" in the army? THEN GO AND DRAFT and improve spiritual needs inside. After all, you are clearly so spiritually elevated that you would be perfect for the job right?
You're right. They aren't asking. They are demanding. They always demand money and blood from hardworking Jews as if they were czars and boyars.
Tell me what gives a group of people the authority to dictate that one's body is anothers property. Conscription is slavery and has no place in a modern "enlightened" society. Charedim are opposing the draft for the wrong reasons: the IDF purity of arms doctrine is anti Torah. Dati Leumi parents wouldn't bitch about charedim not dying if the IDF had a policy of winning. Everyone is so confused about this whole issue. Same with the welfare benefits issues: all coercion based redistribution programs can never work. In summary: conscription is theft, taxation is armed robbery, democracy is dementia, statism is idolatry. But muh "who will pay for the roads and water?" If people want it and are willing to pay, the free market will provide.
Does the situation maybe remind one of the ship Yonah HaNavi was in during the storm? The storm Israel is now experiencing. Yonah HaNavi asleep in the bottom of the ship is the Hareidim. Should someone wake them up to ask if they have a solution to stop the storm?
I believe that several Haredi enclaves in Greater Jerusalem have patrols and some of these may be armed with pistols.
In related news, MK Eicher demanded that Yeshiva students (לא צריכי נטירותא) who were in Ofakim during the attacks should receive compen$ation.
Spot on post.
Breaking news: Hostages released, parasites most affected!
Well this just proves your point! Wow.
Are they represented in the government? Because have their input or ideas for a better decision been requested? Have they a better solution than those who made the decisions leading up until now?
No, they officially refuse to weigh in on such issues. Makes life easier.
They need the police resources to protect the ones that are trying to stop the Torah learning. As they won’t be protected from the Torah learning. And Chareidy Jewry cares about all Jews, even the ones that try to hinder themselves
They couldn’t care less about nisht unzerer…
You literally took the words out of the mouths of antisemites everywhere.
No, he didn't. I know that's a favorite cliche of yours, but anti-Semites don't say charedim don't care about other Jews.
Except they don't.
Antisemites don't know the first thing about Jews. For crying out loud, they torched a Satmar Shul in Australia to protest against Israel!
For most non-Jews, let alone antisemites, all Jews are the same.
Hence the term "the Jew",.rather than the Jews is mostly used by these individuals
Exactly. They don't go around saying, "Charedim don't care about other Jews."
Have you considered Seroquel?