The reason why the IDF is going to the mechinos instead of the chareidim, is because they know the mechinos will say yes, while the chareidim and it look like also hesder yeshivos will say no. That reflects on how much each community cares about Torah compared to IDF service. You cannot blame chareidim for Rabbi Ofran not caring as much about Torah, relatively speaking, as chareidim or hesder yeshivos do.
Also, as a commenter pointed out, the chareidim probably don't consider these mechinos to be teaching the "right" type of Torah. Whether you agree or disagree, chareidim have the right to say what type of Torah they consider "right" or not, just like you do. But there are plenty of chareidi yeshivos of the kiruv type that will be very happy to take these mechina boys if they are interested in learning Torah. If Rabbi Ofran can't say "no" to the IDF, he certainly has the option of sending these boys to such yeshivos. He can also change the type of yeshiva he is running. Again, it depends on how much he cares about his student's learning. He should not be shifting the blame.
A manpower shortage is relative to what the army wants to do with the manpower. If your metric is every single person that the army could possibly get, there will always be a manpower shortage. I don't think chareidim trust the IDF to say that there is a manpower shortage, so therefore send your yeshiva bochurim to the army. Is the army run by people who the chareidim would consider to have Torah hashkafa? There is too obvious of a motivation there.
I don't know how you know what chareidim would consider real Torah. They have a lot of problems with dati-leumi hashkafa. Maybe there are differences between different dati-leumi yeshivos. What about your community? Do you think chareidim consider the Torah on your blog to be real Torah? Based on your history, I'm not so sure.
"A manpower shortage is relative to what the army wants to do with the manpower. If your metric is every single person that the army could possibly get, there will always be a manpower shortage."
this is a staggering statement in light of the current situation. You are truly cut off from what the rest of country is dealing with. We are deffiniately in a life or death situation in which more man power is critically needed. What you write here is probably an accurate reflection of charedi mentalities, but it only demonstrates how selfish and difference they are to the sacrifices of others. You complain that the army doesnt value talmus torah or yiddishkeit, what ever individual officers feel, these values are part of the legal and regualtory structure of the army. The charedim may not think they value it enough, but that could be neogitated. The problem is that the army and government cant negotiate these issues with peole who do nto recognize the valueof the army nor the fundamental right of the State, like every state, to draft its own citzens intothe armed forces.
I mean, that's all just your assertions. Nothing more. Which is totally your right to make such assertions, don't get me wrong, but there is no reason for chareidim to believe you, especially if you display an otherwise hostile attitude towards them, they will naturally be very suspicious of attempts to damage their chinuch system.
The chareidi position is ,I assume , that the value of hakaras hatov does not override the values of shemiras hamitzvos in general. 75% is unfathomable to chareidim.
You would have to elaborate rather than just make assertions. I'm all ears! Many people say Jews are arrogant, it wouldn't surprise me if chareidim were arrogant!
While the IDF (made up partially of serious, religiously connected hesder yeshiva students, etc) is defending eretz yisrael from bloodthirsty terrorists and dying for this cause, you're intimating that Haredim are saying "well, I don't know if it's frum enough for me, so I am just going to pass and stay safe over here ".... "Your Torah is not real Torah", (whatever that means) "The people running the army are not Haredi (of course they aren't) so I can't join (even though one can use their own judgement to see what needs to be done) .... very myopic and self-centered ...
I'm not sure what you are saying, but it doesn't seem to be reasoned arguments, just a bunch of half-sentences strung together that somehow intimate that chareidim are selfish. I am sorry, but it looks like you are not yet ready to have a discussion.
Love that Rabbi slifkin! No mincing words saying it how it is. I love that you’re focusing on the issue and not afraid to call out your own community! The chareidim constantly just gaslight whenever the issue is brought up. Something must be done. Keep it up and don’t stop!!!!
Excellent points. And it is not just the students from the Mechinot that are suffering. Go to any Hesder Yeshiva and you will find the Beit Midrash half empty as the Shana ד and ה guys have had the privilege of fulfilling the Mitzva of defending our land, but at the terrible cost of losing 1-2 years or more that was supposed to be dedicated to learning Torah full time.
For these young men who had dedicated 5 years to serving the country by learning and fighting, they may never have another opportunity to sit full time undisturbed in the Beit Midrash, these are valuable years that will not be able to get back once they have responsibilities at jobs and to support a family.
If the Haredi leadership feels that the young men under their authority are not suitable to participate in Mitzvot like defending the country, there are other ways that they could help the war effort. For example right now the agricultural sector is in desperate need of volunteers. There is produce literally rotting on the trees as their regular Arab or Thai, workers are not available. There is also demand for preparing meals to be sent to soldiers and other volunteer work.
If the Haredi Yeshivot took 1 or 2 days a week to spend the time afternoon volunteering, they could make a tremendous impact for the benefit of the country. They could even make up the hours by extending night seder, shortening lunch breaks, and cancelling Bein Hazmanim.
You are taking it for granted that there is a manpower shortage. But chareidim are not inclined to trust such claims, especially since manpower shortages are so subjective, and especially since it is coming from people who don't share their hashkafos at all, and then telling them they need to send their bochurim to the army.
I'm not sure if you are aware - but there is a war goin on and 30,000 young men have been called up for Miluim, leaving Batei Midrashim, jobs, and families.
If you are not even aware that there is a "manpower shortage" than that you get out of your Haredi bubble once in a while and look around.
Thank you. I am aware that there is aware that there is a war and thousands have been called up. May they be blessed. There is no need to resort to insults.
There are different definition of manpower shortage. It seems you hold that in a war, there is never enough manpower, and all able-bodied people should be drafted, no matter the number. I guess I can see how this is a valid definition of manpower shortage on some level. But I don't agree with that. I think that as long as there is not an impending threat to the survival of the country, there is not a reason to draft yeshiva bachurim. And lav davka chareidi yeshiva bachurim. We disagree with the drafting dati-leumi yeshiva bachurim also. That is one of the longstanding disagreements between the chareidi and dati-leumi community, as you probably know.
You write "the manpower shortage", as though if you repeat it enough times, as though it were a fact, we'll believe it. But this is where the "mystics", as you call them, are a lot more rational than what you call "rationalists". Your type just believe anything someone "official" tells you. Whether its about global warming, global cooling, dinosaurs, endangered pigeons, Covid, vaccines, manpower shortages, future population trends, necessary sacrifices for peace - you'll just believe anything. The more religious types have a healthy degree of skepticism towards officialdom. I'm not surprised you've never explored this, because a) gullibility is embarrassing, and b) this site long ago morphed into something different. But there you go. Interesting, is it not?
You are talking about a current manpower shortage because of this war? You should ask yourself the question. How do you suppose it will be solved? Because right now, they are not going to be getting tens of thousands of chareidim.
The war is a crisis. The fact that chareidim are learning is not a crisis. Imagine if chareidim didn't live in Israel. Would you be militarily any better off? Maybe you wouldn't need to defend chareidi cities like Kiryat Sefer. So that's what you should be pushing for, chareidim defend their own cities, no more IDF. That will solve your manpower shortage and its something doable.
No , the whole point if an army is to prepare for a crisis. That is literally one of the main functions of the army. (Which they in many ways failed).There being a 'manpower shortage' has nothing to do with a time of crisis. At least in this case.
I hope the comments section doesn't turn into a sewer of ad hominem.
Those who are "fed up" with you or psychoanalyzing your motives have made their points and don't need to repeat themselves ad nauseum, dominating the comments section.
Here's an article that just came out in an Israeli newspaper which makes the exact same point as this post. Do the authors also have some personal fight with charedim? Is it absolutely inconceivable that otherwise there is no reason why people would be upset about this?
I guess in your opinion Slifkin is not yet done making his points. Any reader of this blog can summarize it in one sentence. They banned my books, hence I hate them. Full stop! Now he can get back to his animals.
As to the rest of your comment, perhaps I'm not as good at mind-reading and remote psychoanalysis as you and the rest of the readers of this blog you presume to speak for.
(I suppose you have mind-read and psychoanalyzed them as well; otherwise how would you know what they're thinking?) Tremendously impressive.
Someone as talented as yourself should not be wasting his time with this blog, let alone taking the time to compose comments.
Why do you continue to you do so?
(Given my inferior talents for mindreading and remote psychoanalysis, I have to ask, rather than presume to know what you're thinking. )
Reading comprehension alone would not get you inside the minds of those who have written -- and most certainly not into the minds of those who haven't written (99% of the readership).
You are amazing!
Use those "reading comprehension" powers for better things than reading this blog.
Apply that "reading comprehension" to reading the stock market and give your billions to Tzeddaka.
The more a group is dependent on government money and tzedaka for its basic needs, the less it is able to see the needs of any other groups or of society in general. Attaching itself to the public teat was the worst long-term decision Israeli haredi society could have made.
You cant blame chareidim for the DL going off the derech, come on. You have to bear in mind that these guys from a "weak background" are like half the community (disclaimer:im dati leumi). If these guys go off the derech upon entering a secular environment then there's major issues you need to address besides for the strange men in black.
How ironic. The charedim claim that *their* kids will go off the derech if exposed to the army. Doesn't that mean that *they* have major issues to address with their chinnuch?
Look, obviously the army is a challenging spiritual environment. But why should dati'im have to shoulder all the spiritual risks as well as the physical ones? Besides, it's much less so if you can go with a large religious group. If a large contingent of charedim joined, the risks would be much less.
It's not just the risks from the army itself. It's the risks of leaving yeshiva. In America, the chareidim leave yeshiva on their own in their mid to late twenties when they need to support their families. This is what the community determined is necessary on a community scale to keep yiddishkeit alive. Sure there are plenty of people who don't do that and are Bnei Torah, but they are the exceptions. Maybe a compromise could be reached where chareidim upon leaving yeshiva on their own would do army service, instead of asking them to leave yeshiva. THey wouldn't be as young, but they could still be very useful. Has this been tried?
Its true that this is a major chareidi weakness, but its not like we as a group are not affected by our participation in society. You cant say they're weak while ignoring out weaknesses. What percentage of datim dont even do mechina?
I believe this is the number one reason chareidim run from the dl community and will never listen to any plea to join them in most anything. Their kids go off at staggering rates.
This is what it's all about. Long term survival and thriving of Torah Observant Judaism goes up the more Charedi you get. It you personally can't hack it, no problem. Just be aware that you're chances of your offspring (in a few generations ) not keeping Shabbos and marrying a non Jew goes up dramatically.
Its not just about whether or not i can hack it. Its about what torah really is. I would never reform judaism even if it meant my kids would have things easier religiously. In our yeshiva world, we view army service and work as לכתחילה.
The point is not about work or army service. It's about insularity. The Charedim understand that insularity is the best way of keeping a very unique way of life alive. When you lose the insularity, everything starts to slip. Not always is it in the first or second or even 3rd generation, but eventually it gets you.
A lot of the "bugs" of the Charedi world and life are features. The non rationality is a feature that ensures insularity. It blocks off a common highway of shared meaning with the world outside of them.
It's about the long game here. Not about the next 5, 10, or even 50 years.
I agree with the oped, but in the other direction. I think chareidim would be very happy if thousands of dati-leumim and chilonim would quit the army to learn in yeshiva. It would be a tremendous kiddush Hashem!
Apparently, you have a very different view of things than chareidim do! We have our work cut out for us if we ever hope to come to an agreement! Kol tuv!
Um, the whole point of chillul Hashem is how *other* people see you. You can be the biggest tzadik in the world in your eyes but if it doesn't look that way to other people, you have a problem. As does the Big Guy.
So in this case at least, yeah, you have your work cut out for *you*. I'm not responsible for how charedim appear.
No, that is not he whole point of Chillul Hashem. For years, Christians thought we were terrible people for not accepting Jesus. At a certain point, we don't care what people think, if they are totally wrong.
You are right that we have our work cut out for us! But you guys also have your work cut out for you if you have any hope of getting chareidim to change!
Yeah, I knew you'd bring up Christians and anti-Semites. Give me a break. We're talking about fellow Jews, including very frum ones, who have very well-grounded grievances against the charedim.
Do tell what work *non*-charedim have to do to get change out of a society that has it perfectly OK now and thus has no desire to change.
"In 1988, Rav Eli Sadan commissioned a survey, and discovered that of the boys who go straight to the army, fully 75% are no longer religious a year later. "
Rav Eli Sadan needs to commision a study for something that is obvious for anyone with one eye. Talk about blind leading the blind.
This justifies the charedi avoidance of the army. It also illustrates the weakness of the DL education and their willingness to sacrifice their children on the altar of the Molech of Zionism.
DL does produce an elite of scolars, but the עמך are lost in the process. A terrible shita.
All these mechina students can take 1 year defferment and learn in a yeshiva, just like the charedim do.
"All these mechina students can take 1 year defferment and learn in a yeshiva, just like the charedim do."
Did you miss the part about the reason for all this? The manpower shortage in the IDF? Or do you just imagine that it's possible to not care about such things?
IDF and the political establishment bear the responsibility for the mess that the country is in. They and the DL system bear the responsibilty for the 75% drop out rate. Don't try to shift the blame to the charedim.
Charedim initiated the policy that made it necessary to draft Yeshiva boys who have less than a year of post-high school learning instead of young men who've learned several years. Charedim insist on continuing a policy, whether initiated by them or others, that according to you "led to the mess that the country is in now". Charedim have continuously, with little interruption have been members of the gov't responsible for all policies.
Charedim should initiate a policy that allows the younger DL boys to share the burden of Torah study before going into the army.
This is false. Chareidim never made such a policy, and have always asked for exemptions for all full time yeshiva students. The non-chareidim decided they want yeshivos that also combine army service rather than full-time yeshivos. The chareidim never asked for that.
Chareidim already "initiated a policy that allows the younger DL boys to share the burden of Torah study before going into the army." It is called full-time yeshiva, and all DL boys are qualified.
What policy? Please be specific. Then tell us whether UTJ voted against such policy.
I'll remind you that Jonathan Rosenblum, in the wake of the withdrawal from Gaza wrote that UTJ will cast a deciding vote on matters of security. A statement like that makes your claim rather vacuous.
Do you have any idea of how many Jews have "dropped out" over the years? Millions! Judaism makes a *lot* of demands. It is *hard*. That *anyone* remains is a miracle. Religious Jews in general like to ignore these facts, but that doesn't make them less true.
I don't understand. You don't think it's of the greatest importance to keep our communities frum? We think it's much more important than having a Jewish State of Israel in Eretz Yisrael. Do you disagree?
False dichotomy. You can have a Jewish State and keep communities frum. Furthermore, if we allow a more expansive definition of "frum", or at least consider increased religious observance as a desideratum, than it's clear that a Jewish State does assist all communities to keep more מצות.
So why not both? Why do you believe that there's a choice between ישוב ארץ ישראל and observance of מצות?
It depends what you mean by more expansive definition of frum. Some more expansive definitions are just unacceptable to chareidim. I said in the other comments that chareidim have many problems with dati-leumi hashkafos. I don't think they would be necessarily be ok with what those communities accept as "frum". I didn't say it can't be both. I was responding to Nachum who seemed to take it as a given that it can't be both.
>"Do you have any idea of how many Jews have "dropped out" over the years? Millions! Judaism makes a *lot* of demands. It is *hard*. That *anyone* remains is a miracle. Religious Jews in general like to ignore these facts, but that doesn't make them less true"
Au contraire: the demands of halacha, and the difficulty of living a halachic life, is a major theme, both in the traditional sources ("taryag mitzvos"), and colloquially ("s'iz shver tzu zayan a yid").
And from sociology of religion perspective, the most successful religions ("successful" in the Darwinian sense, of surviving and growing) put massive demands on their adherents (compare the Amish, one of the fastest growing religious groups in the world)
The "study" is flawed. I am told by my sons and others that many of those who became not religious while on Tzahal were חוזר בתשובה agree yet they left the army. A new study is needed.
Well, the answer is obvious: They're not learning "real" Torah.
A long time ago I read a book that must have been written in the late 70's or early 80's in which the author described an IDF swearing-in at the Kotel, and how there were some charedim- I imagine these are the more extreme ones- screaming at it, how dare they "desecrate" the Kotel yada yada. (Never mind that the charedim are only able to reach the Kotel thanks to the IDF.)
I recall that the author pointed out that the screamers got *really* mad when the chaplain got up and gave a very religious speech. The IDF, nu. But someone else claiming to be frum but not in your style? Gevalt!
So don't be too sure that the charedim wouldn't ultimately see this as a plus.
Agreed. From a chareidi perspective, they are probably not learning Torah the "right" way. And we mean in a different way than the difference between litvish and chassidish and sefardi learning. I don't know what they learn in Rabbi Ofran's yeshiva but I know that many chareidim are not at all ok with the Torah on this blog, so if it's a similar hashkafa, I can see why they wouldn't consider it right.
So tell me that the Torah being learned in hesder yeshivot, in mechinot, in YU, is of the same level as that being learned in Lakewood, Mir, etc., and you can prove me wrong.
I wonder which makes me more upset: One group expressing a lack of hakarat hatov, or the Briskers' bizarre belief that the Kotel is the wall of the Mikdash (or the halakhic Har HaBayit) itself (it is obviously neither) and thus they can't approach it too closely lest the wall be wider at the bottom below ground level (it isn't) and they tread on sacred ground. Ingratitude or lack of factual thinking? It's a toughie.
A lot of times when I'm there I see people- women, always, I think- standing way past the glass barriers at the southern end, deep in prayer. I wonder which group they are. Briskers would make sense. Satmars...well, that spot was also liberated by the IDF.
Well, the actual wall of the halakhic Har HaBayit- the 500 square amah one built by Chizkiyahu- is, as the Gemara explicitly says, many meters east of the Kotel, which was built by Herod. Not only does the Gemara say it, but you can *actually see the wall* poking out of the ground. (And it's mutar for a t'vul yom to step on the Har HaBayit in any event.) To pretend the Kotel is anywhere near the Har HaBayit is to ignore not only what we can plainly see but Chazal as well.
So if, Israeli Army=bad for torah values...then...
Why should the chareidi world who's been fighting this since the beginning of the state stop learning for these other guys? In other words, the chareidi bochurim who are (hopefully) pure and trying their hardest to stay that way should get sullied. And it's their fault to look out for the other guys ruchnius? When has Judaism ever worked that way?
And please stop preaching about Moshe Rabbeinu's army. If he was the commander in chief, absolutely. But again, Israeli Army = bad for torah values. And with all due respect for the important role your daughter plays, Moshe Rabbeinu would not have asked any female to serve.
"And it's their fault to look out for the other guys ruchnius? When has Judaism ever worked that way?"
Thank your for making my point. The charedi insistence on army exemption has nothing to do with their Torah studies being important for Israel, it's because their Torah studies are important *to them*, and to hell with everyone else.
In general I think this is true. Someone asked RGR why if learning is the highest ideal, do we stop to daven. His answer was along the lines that not too many people are at the level of their torah protecting themselves or the masses.
By the way, with regard to your question "When has Judaism ever worked that way?", there is a very simply and ironic answer. There is indeed a situation in Judaism when people are expected to risk both their spiritual and physical wellbeing in order to help others. It's the mitzva of going to fight in a war.
like the midinat hachashmonaim- as the Rambam states it was a legit malchus yisroelm for which we still give thanks on chanuka, depite the many sins of their kings, and lack of urim vetummim and ignoring (and killing!) the sanhedrin.
The Charedim don't have time to go to the Army. They are too busy drowning puppies. And when they aren't, who will get the blood of the zionists for the Matzos if not the Charedim? They are pointing space Rothschild lasers and planning on world dominion, and the Army is a distraction. Whenever the Bildberg group is not meeting, the Charedim are building concentration camps in the Mid-west to deal with the 'other side', and running trafficking businesses from the basement of Pizza stores in 770. And who do you think develops the chips in the vaccines to control humanity? Kollel Yungeleit!
Most of those conspiracies make more sense than this one.
Don't mock anti-Semitic/Zionist conspiracy theory. It was the practice of some Agudists over a century ago. Sure it was taken up later by Henry Ford, Hitler and others. But Agudah got there before them.
Actually doing something seems to be too rational an option, rather just continue to spread relentless hate , grow the divide , make the chareidim want to be a part of his ideology even less. A completely counter productive approach.
Are you kidding? Most of your posts are about how cynical and selfish the chareidim are. These are your own words in a comment here- "extreme selfishness". This is "problematic approach"? If people would talk about how extremely selfish the Jews are, it would be nothing less than terrible anti-semitism. But you talk about it as casually as this morning's breakfast. Shim is 100% right.
But there is a way to do that with respectful disagreement.
You are not merely pointing out how problematic their approach is to Israel.You are bashing their hashkafa as a klal, badmouthing their leaders and completely invalidating their entire Torah outlook.
Yes but their is an approach which only makes things worse.At very least you can treat them with the respect of any other Jew,there are enough people that hate us already there is no need for us to hate eachother.
You still have not suggested an alternative. in either event My experience is that charedim find any serious or agressive critcism "disrespectful" or much worse, refelctions of hatred agaisn them and even hatred against Torah and the Ribono shel olam Himself רחמנה לצלן I have seen this in responses to my recent TOI article about this manner. People, including charedim, whow ere sympathic to waht I had to say, prasied it as a "repsectful" and articulate formaultion of how many DL feel about Charedim. Charedim who disagreed found it to be an unacceptable attack. The irony here is that charedi leadership has always and especially recently, has had nothing but distain for those who ride in the "empty wagon."
Why do I need to suggest an alternative, for me nothing is bettter than making things worse.
Yes many people get defensive when critisized, their response to criticism doesn't make their point of view invalid.
I have read the most disgusting things about chareidim and their leaders ,unprovoked.(some of it in the comments here )But that alone doesn't invalidate any non chareidi approach.
I for one am incredibly sympathetic to the RZ approach and can fully understand their frustration.What bothers me aren't the different points of view it's the many false and harmful conclusions that are drawn about the chareidim.Theres just a complete lack of respect (both ways).
Trying to figure out one thing that the defenders of the Chareidim seem to be overlooking. If the Arabs win, do you honestly think they'll spare the Chareidim because the Chareidim didn't serve?
They're looking for genocide. All of us. There won't be yeshivos if the Arabs win.
Charedim don't know "if". Charedi policy is dictated by immediate expediency and does not consider long term"ifs". They leave the "ifs" to the secular and complain later.
However - isn't it also because the government won't pay the reservists? Wouldn't it be better to send in a trained military force that knows the terrain rather young kids with no experience?
With all due respect, I think there is another side to this. It is clear that the Hamas attack was an inside job. Sorry if you don't like it, but there's no way out of that conclusion. And over 400 soldiers were killed overnight. Gassed, I believe. Many other soldiers that died in Gaza lost their lives because the army did not give them available protection and exposed them. The war in Gaza after three months has only found three hostages, who were 'by mistake' shot on sight. The rumors are that the end game here is putting Abbas in charge of Gaza, with a Palesitinian state in Gaza and the West Bank. So the long term value of this romp around Gaza appears to be minimal, and is likely just another establishment game play. The Charedim have long experience of the Zionist state behaving in ways that are detrimental to them. In which case I really don't see any reason to sacrifice Charedi boys.
Rabbi Slifkin, while I appreciate your concern, this is a losing argument which misses the point. Chareidim often care more about quality than quantity. Many would rather see students from weaker backgrounds leave learning in order that students from stronger backgrounds stay in learning. Officially, this is ideologically neutral and would not depend on whether the talmid is Chareidi or Dati Leumi. (How this plays out in reality might be a very different story but discussing that requires gathering evidence.) Similarly, for good or for ill, Chareidim don't say that those in yeshiva should be involved in kiruv. Kiruv is wonderful but Chareidim will say it can't come at the expense of excelling in Torah learning to become a talmid chacham.
I am NOT arguing that this position is correct. I am simply responding based on my understanding of the facts. Debating this point of quality vs quantity would require a source-based discussion.
Talmid, I gave your comment a lot of thought. If it's true, then all it means is that Charedi society has a certain type of extreme elitism, which translates into extreme selfishness vis-a-vis the rest of the country.
Rabbi Dr. Slifkin, I appreciate you that you gave my comment a lot of thought. I'm frankly surprised you say "If it's true." You didn't hear this all the time in your Chareidi days? See Rav Dessler Michtav M'Eliyahu volume 3 page 355 as one source for this.
"then all it means is that Charedi society has a certain type of extreme elitism, which translates into extreme selfishness vis-a-vis the rest of the country."
I recognize that your brief comment does not represent an exhaustive treatment of a subject. Nonetheless, with all due respect, I think you need to grapple with the sources that they bring* before you render judgement and criticize. Additionally, off the top of my head, doesn't the Rambam, the rationalist par excellence have such an "elitist" view?
* One example, :ברכות ו
מאי (קהלת יב, יג) כי זה כל האדם א"ר אלעזר אמר הקב"ה כל העולם כלו לא נברא אלא בשביל זה רבי אבא בר כהנא אמר שקול זה כנגד כל העולם כולו ר' שמעון בן עזאי אומר ואמרי לה ר' שמעון בן זומא אומר כל העולם כולו לא נברא אלא לצוות לזה:
The sources are typical hyperbole. And in this case, we are not talking about selecting some people to be gedolei Torah, we are talking about the likely sacrifice of people to not being religious.
I agree that traditional litvische yeshivishe culture was very elitist. IT bleived that the only way to true dvekus was learning Torah truely lishmah. But this meant that most people could never really come close to hashem. Chasisidm of course argued the opposite. The is a story that some one asked on of the great pre war litvische gedolim (I am pretty sure I know who but need to check the soruces) about the fact that the German Neo-Orhtodox day school system was much better at keeping kids frum that litvische cheders and yeshivos. his response was, how gedolim has this system produced.
But today, especially in Israel the system the opposite. The idea that everyone born into the system must learn full time learn term, regardless of inclination of ability is precisely what underlies the current crisis. If they reall cared about quality, they would agree to send their weak kids to the army so our top guys could back to learning. I think this is much more that they are not "goyres" us. Indeed charedi discourse generally ignores the existence of serious RZ yeshivos and communites. They are the biggest challenge to their ideology
I believe the view is that the Jewish people require great scholars more than they need general knowledge. I've heard this framed as " pressburg vs. Volozhin" with volozhin holding this view.
"Chareidim often care more about quality than quantity. Many would rather see students from weaker backgrounds leave learning in order that students from stronger backgrounds stay in learning. "
But that is not the case. I haven't heard the Charedi leadership advocate for that model.
2) Did Rav Dessler actually "rather see students from weaker backgrounds leave learning in order that students from stronger backgrounds stay in learning". At what age what should weaker students leave? How does a weaker student prevent the stronger student from learning?
I simply cited Rav Dessler to demonstrate the quality vs quantity approach among Chareidim. In my opinion, Rav Dessler certainly has not been canonized and can be potentially critiqued on the basis of earlier sources.
I don't know off the top of my head what Rav Dessler said. As mentioned, I was simply citing Rav Dessler as an indication of the quality vs quantity approach among Chareidim. I suspect one will find this approach many times going through the letters of Rav Shach and others.
"How does a weaker student prevent the stronger student from learning?"
In our case - the choice is whom to draft. Mechinah likely doesn't have as rigorous a learning schedule as a Yeshiva (it often includes psychological preparation for the army). These students also come from weaker backgrounds and will only stay in Mechinah for one year anyway. From a narrow perspective of maximizing Torah study, it is obvious to draft these Mechinah students early rather than draft students learning long-learn in formal yeshivos. Again, I am not saying that this narrow perspective is correct. Rabbi Dr. Natan Slifkin advocates that Chareidim leave their learning so these students in mechinot can finish their year. A source to support Rabbi Slifkin could be the Mechaber paskening that one can mechalel Shabbas to prevent spiritual pikuach nefesh (saving a Jewish child from being taken to be raised by non-Jews). Since this isn't a shayla of chillul Shabbas (or more precisely anyone fighting will mechalel Shabbas anyway). even those who are cholek on the Mechaber could possibly agree here to draft yeshiva students. This also may not be the right way to analyze the question.
The reason why the IDF is going to the mechinos instead of the chareidim, is because they know the mechinos will say yes, while the chareidim and it look like also hesder yeshivos will say no. That reflects on how much each community cares about Torah compared to IDF service. You cannot blame chareidim for Rabbi Ofran not caring as much about Torah, relatively speaking, as chareidim or hesder yeshivos do.
Also, as a commenter pointed out, the chareidim probably don't consider these mechinos to be teaching the "right" type of Torah. Whether you agree or disagree, chareidim have the right to say what type of Torah they consider "right" or not, just like you do. But there are plenty of chareidi yeshivos of the kiruv type that will be very happy to take these mechina boys if they are interested in learning Torah. If Rabbi Ofran can't say "no" to the IDF, he certainly has the option of sending these boys to such yeshivos. He can also change the type of yeshiva he is running. Again, it depends on how much he cares about his student's learning. He should not be shifting the blame.
Which part of "there is a manpower shortage in the IDF" do you not understand?
And when push comes to shove, the vast majority of charedim would not say that the Torah learned in dati-leumi yeshivot is not Torah.
A manpower shortage is relative to what the army wants to do with the manpower. If your metric is every single person that the army could possibly get, there will always be a manpower shortage. I don't think chareidim trust the IDF to say that there is a manpower shortage, so therefore send your yeshiva bochurim to the army. Is the army run by people who the chareidim would consider to have Torah hashkafa? There is too obvious of a motivation there.
I don't know how you know what chareidim would consider real Torah. They have a lot of problems with dati-leumi hashkafa. Maybe there are differences between different dati-leumi yeshivos. What about your community? Do you think chareidim consider the Torah on your blog to be real Torah? Based on your history, I'm not so sure.
"A manpower shortage is relative to what the army wants to do with the manpower. If your metric is every single person that the army could possibly get, there will always be a manpower shortage."
this is a staggering statement in light of the current situation. You are truly cut off from what the rest of country is dealing with. We are deffiniately in a life or death situation in which more man power is critically needed. What you write here is probably an accurate reflection of charedi mentalities, but it only demonstrates how selfish and difference they are to the sacrifices of others. You complain that the army doesnt value talmus torah or yiddishkeit, what ever individual officers feel, these values are part of the legal and regualtory structure of the army. The charedim may not think they value it enough, but that could be neogitated. The problem is that the army and government cant negotiate these issues with peole who do nto recognize the valueof the army nor the fundamental right of the State, like every state, to draft its own citzens intothe armed forces.
I mean, that's all just your assertions. Nothing more. Which is totally your right to make such assertions, don't get me wrong, but there is no reason for chareidim to believe you, especially if you display an otherwise hostile attitude towards them, they will naturally be very suspicious of attempts to damage their chinuch system.
"We are deffiniately in a life or death situation in which more man power is critically needed."
The army just released thousands of reservists. Dont be overly dramatic .
No one is denying that the army could use more people . But we are not at the stage ,Baruch Hashem ,where the state literally depends on it.
They released them to stop the economy collapsing and to give them a much-needed break before they call them back in a month.
Amongst other political reasons , a considerable amount of soldiers are against the deescalation.
The government can call it whatever they want.
But that's exactly my point , if we were in such a dire situation , the Army wouldn't be able to release them at all.
"fundamental right of the State, like every state, to draft its own citzens "
No law but G-d's.
You can argue about what G-d says ,but secular notions of rights and morality are meaningless to Chareidim.
It's called Hakaras HaTov to those that run the country you are living in.
The chareidi position is ,I assume , that the value of hakaras hatov does not override the values of shemiras hamitzvos in general. 75% is unfathomable to chareidim.
Y. Sackett, you are so off-base in every regard. The arrogance you are attributing to Chareidim (if true) is astounding.
You would have to elaborate rather than just make assertions. I'm all ears! Many people say Jews are arrogant, it wouldn't surprise me if chareidim were arrogant!
While the IDF (made up partially of serious, religiously connected hesder yeshiva students, etc) is defending eretz yisrael from bloodthirsty terrorists and dying for this cause, you're intimating that Haredim are saying "well, I don't know if it's frum enough for me, so I am just going to pass and stay safe over here ".... "Your Torah is not real Torah", (whatever that means) "The people running the army are not Haredi (of course they aren't) so I can't join (even though one can use their own judgement to see what needs to be done) .... very myopic and self-centered ...
I'm not sure what you are saying, but it doesn't seem to be reasoned arguments, just a bunch of half-sentences strung together that somehow intimate that chareidim are selfish. I am sorry, but it looks like you are not yet ready to have a discussion.
Love that Rabbi slifkin! No mincing words saying it how it is. I love that you’re focusing on the issue and not afraid to call out your own community! The chareidim constantly just gaslight whenever the issue is brought up. Something must be done. Keep it up and don’t stop!!!!
Just to clarify, Rabbi Slifkin is not calling out his own community.
The hesder yeshivot have already said yes.
Wasn't that what Rabbi Ofran was complaining about? Is this a more recent development?
The Chareidim can volunteer and the IDF will take them, don't worry.
Excellent points. And it is not just the students from the Mechinot that are suffering. Go to any Hesder Yeshiva and you will find the Beit Midrash half empty as the Shana ד and ה guys have had the privilege of fulfilling the Mitzva of defending our land, but at the terrible cost of losing 1-2 years or more that was supposed to be dedicated to learning Torah full time.
For these young men who had dedicated 5 years to serving the country by learning and fighting, they may never have another opportunity to sit full time undisturbed in the Beit Midrash, these are valuable years that will not be able to get back once they have responsibilities at jobs and to support a family.
If the Haredi leadership feels that the young men under their authority are not suitable to participate in Mitzvot like defending the country, there are other ways that they could help the war effort. For example right now the agricultural sector is in desperate need of volunteers. There is produce literally rotting on the trees as their regular Arab or Thai, workers are not available. There is also demand for preparing meals to be sent to soldiers and other volunteer work.
If the Haredi Yeshivot took 1 or 2 days a week to spend the time afternoon volunteering, they could make a tremendous impact for the benefit of the country. They could even make up the hours by extending night seder, shortening lunch breaks, and cancelling Bein Hazmanim.
Why is it the chareidim's fault if you guys send all your learners to the army?
And why isn't Slifkin working on a farm?
How do you propose that the IDF manpower shortage be solved?
You are taking it for granted that there is a manpower shortage. But chareidim are not inclined to trust such claims, especially since manpower shortages are so subjective, and especially since it is coming from people who don't share their hashkafos at all, and then telling them they need to send their bochurim to the army.
I'm not sure if you are aware - but there is a war goin on and 30,000 young men have been called up for Miluim, leaving Batei Midrashim, jobs, and families.
If you are not even aware that there is a "manpower shortage" than that you get out of your Haredi bubble once in a while and look around.
Thank you. I am aware that there is aware that there is a war and thousands have been called up. May they be blessed. There is no need to resort to insults.
There are different definition of manpower shortage. It seems you hold that in a war, there is never enough manpower, and all able-bodied people should be drafted, no matter the number. I guess I can see how this is a valid definition of manpower shortage on some level. But I don't agree with that. I think that as long as there is not an impending threat to the survival of the country, there is not a reason to draft yeshiva bachurim. And lav davka chareidi yeshiva bachurim. We disagree with the drafting dati-leumi yeshiva bachurim also. That is one of the longstanding disagreements between the chareidi and dati-leumi community, as you probably know.
Um, who do you think should decide how much manpower is needed, if not the IDF?
Thanks! This highlights the biggest issue! The chareidim don’t even know there’s a war!!
You write "the manpower shortage", as though if you repeat it enough times, as though it were a fact, we'll believe it. But this is where the "mystics", as you call them, are a lot more rational than what you call "rationalists". Your type just believe anything someone "official" tells you. Whether its about global warming, global cooling, dinosaurs, endangered pigeons, Covid, vaccines, manpower shortages, future population trends, necessary sacrifices for peace - you'll just believe anything. The more religious types have a healthy degree of skepticism towards officialdom. I'm not surprised you've never explored this, because a) gullibility is embarrassing, and b) this site long ago morphed into something different. But there you go. Interesting, is it not?
You write "the manpower glut", as though if you repeat it enough times, as though it were a fact, we'll believe it.
You are talking about a current manpower shortage because of this war? You should ask yourself the question. How do you suppose it will be solved? Because right now, they are not going to be getting tens of thousands of chareidim.
Translation: Before a crisis, there is no manpower shortage, so there's no need worry. During the crisis, it's too late, so it's not our problem.
The war is a crisis. The fact that chareidim are learning is not a crisis. Imagine if chareidim didn't live in Israel. Would you be militarily any better off? Maybe you wouldn't need to defend chareidi cities like Kiryat Sefer. So that's what you should be pushing for, chareidim defend their own cities, no more IDF. That will solve your manpower shortage and its something doable.
We'd be economically better off.
No , the whole point if an army is to prepare for a crisis. That is literally one of the main functions of the army. (Which they in many ways failed).There being a 'manpower shortage' has nothing to do with a time of crisis. At least in this case.
So you're saying the manpower shortage should have been addressed years ago? How?
Even if you right, you've simply shifted the question to the past, and you actually haven't addressed it.
becuase if you sent all your non-learns who claim to be learning to the army then our learners would be able to spend more time in yeshvia.
Your learners could spend more time in yeshiva right now. You guys made a choice about how you want your yeshivas to be.
Thank for this excellent and important post.
I hope the comments section doesn't turn into a sewer of ad hominem.
Those who are "fed up" with you or psychoanalyzing your motives have made their points and don't need to repeat themselves ad nauseum, dominating the comments section.
" psychoanalyzing your motives" This is exactly what this blog does to the Chareidim.
" don't need to repeat themselves" And R Slifkin should?
Please, at the very least dont show your bias.
Yah. He can't deny that Slifkin has made the whole war about his own personal fight with chareidim. It's clearly just hatred at this point.
Here's an article that just came out in an Israeli newspaper which makes the exact same point as this post. Do the authors also have some personal fight with charedim? Is it absolutely inconceivable that otherwise there is no reason why people would be upset about this?
https://www.israelhayom.co.il/opinions/article/15139507
do you know R. Slifkin personally? nothing could be further from the truth.
I guess in your opinion Slifkin is not yet done making his points. Any reader of this blog can summarize it in one sentence. They banned my books, hence I hate them. Full stop! Now he can get back to his animals.
What does my alleged motivation have to do with whether the points I make are valid and important?
Because Rabbi Slifkin, the points are subjective, so your subjective interpretation is affected by your motivation.
That does not determine whether the points I make are valid and important.
But since the points are subjective, it makes sense to consider where they are coming from.
Agreed.
All points made by any human about most things will be subjective.
And that's a reason to examine them critically.
But not a reason to reject them categorically.
I believe that R' Slifkin is perfectly fine with people examining his arguments critically.
Key words: examine his arguments.
As opposed to rejecting them categorically.
Natan- why have not you pbocked this guy. It is crazy that you allow an image of Hitler on your blog.
The truth about you and your mindset is that the truth hurts.
C'mon sheifaleh that's a bit much
As to the first point, correct.
As to the rest of your comment, perhaps I'm not as good at mind-reading and remote psychoanalysis as you and the rest of the readers of this blog you presume to speak for.
(I suppose you have mind-read and psychoanalyzed them as well; otherwise how would you know what they're thinking?) Tremendously impressive.
Someone as talented as yourself should not be wasting his time with this blog, let alone taking the time to compose comments.
Why do you continue to you do so?
(Given my inferior talents for mindreading and remote psychoanalysis, I have to ask, rather than presume to know what you're thinking. )
Forgive me for not having your superpowers.
No psycobabble, mind reading, nor superpowers necessary. It’s called reading comprehension.
You're being modest.
Reading comprehension alone would not get you inside the minds of those who have written -- and most certainly not into the minds of those who haven't written (99% of the readership).
You are amazing!
Use those "reading comprehension" powers for better things than reading this blog.
Apply that "reading comprehension" to reading the stock market and give your billions to Tzeddaka.
Please!!!!
And you should apply your hate to Hamas, Nazis, and Amalek! Hating chareidim will do you no good other then making you a bitter person.
More mindreading!
Thinking the worst of people and imputing petty motives to them will do you no good other then making you a bitter person, if you are not one already.
Really.
The more a group is dependent on government money and tzedaka for its basic needs, the less it is able to see the needs of any other groups or of society in general. Attaching itself to the public teat was the worst long-term decision Israeli haredi society could have made.
You cant blame chareidim for the DL going off the derech, come on. You have to bear in mind that these guys from a "weak background" are like half the community (disclaimer:im dati leumi). If these guys go off the derech upon entering a secular environment then there's major issues you need to address besides for the strange men in black.
How ironic. The charedim claim that *their* kids will go off the derech if exposed to the army. Doesn't that mean that *they* have major issues to address with their chinnuch?
Look, obviously the army is a challenging spiritual environment. But why should dati'im have to shoulder all the spiritual risks as well as the physical ones? Besides, it's much less so if you can go with a large religious group. If a large contingent of charedim joined, the risks would be much less.
It's not just the risks from the army itself. It's the risks of leaving yeshiva. In America, the chareidim leave yeshiva on their own in their mid to late twenties when they need to support their families. This is what the community determined is necessary on a community scale to keep yiddishkeit alive. Sure there are plenty of people who don't do that and are Bnei Torah, but they are the exceptions. Maybe a compromise could be reached where chareidim upon leaving yeshiva on their own would do army service, instead of asking them to leave yeshiva. THey wouldn't be as young, but they could still be very useful. Has this been tried?
No they claim their kids can go off the derech like many kids do.Its not a very far fetched claim. Not sure why that has to do with bad chinuch.
Right but what about our issues?
Its true that this is a major chareidi weakness, but its not like we as a group are not affected by our participation in society. You cant say they're weak while ignoring out weaknesses. What percentage of datim dont even do mechina?
Fine their chinuch is weak. They still can't send their kids to the 75% success rate shmad machine. Even on pain of death.
I believe this is the number one reason chareidim run from the dl community and will never listen to any plea to join them in most anything. Their kids go off at staggering rates.
Ye. This is a glaring issue Natan dosent properly address. Its the elephant in the room. Im proud of my community but cant bury my head in the sand.
This is what it's all about. Long term survival and thriving of Torah Observant Judaism goes up the more Charedi you get. It you personally can't hack it, no problem. Just be aware that you're chances of your offspring (in a few generations ) not keeping Shabbos and marrying a non Jew goes up dramatically.
Keeping shabbat yes. In israel intermarriage is not much of a thing unless you go crazy left. Datlashim stay traditional.
Its not just about whether or not i can hack it. Its about what torah really is. I would never reform judaism even if it meant my kids would have things easier religiously. In our yeshiva world, we view army service and work as לכתחילה.
The point is not about work or army service. It's about insularity. The Charedim understand that insularity is the best way of keeping a very unique way of life alive. When you lose the insularity, everything starts to slip. Not always is it in the first or second or even 3rd generation, but eventually it gets you.
A lot of the "bugs" of the Charedi world and life are features. The non rationality is a feature that ensures insularity. It blocks off a common highway of shared meaning with the world outside of them.
It's about the long game here. Not about the next 5, 10, or even 50 years.
Yisrael HaYom today has an op-ed on much the same lines:
https://www.israelhayom.co.il/opinions/article/15139507
I agree with the oped, but in the other direction. I think chareidim would be very happy if thousands of dati-leumim and chilonim would quit the army to learn in yeshiva. It would be a tremendous kiddush Hashem!
I can't think of a bigger chillul Hashem, and can't see how anyone not living in a hermetically sealed bubble would ever think otherwise.
Also, of course charedim wouldn't be happy. You can only get special treatment so long as there aren't too many of you.
Apparently, you have a very different view of things than chareidim do! We have our work cut out for us if we ever hope to come to an agreement! Kol tuv!
Um, the whole point of chillul Hashem is how *other* people see you. You can be the biggest tzadik in the world in your eyes but if it doesn't look that way to other people, you have a problem. As does the Big Guy.
So in this case at least, yeah, you have your work cut out for *you*. I'm not responsible for how charedim appear.
No, that is not he whole point of Chillul Hashem. For years, Christians thought we were terrible people for not accepting Jesus. At a certain point, we don't care what people think, if they are totally wrong.
You are right that we have our work cut out for us! But you guys also have your work cut out for you if you have any hope of getting chareidim to change!
Yeah, I knew you'd bring up Christians and anti-Semites. Give me a break. We're talking about fellow Jews, including very frum ones, who have very well-grounded grievances against the charedim.
Do tell what work *non*-charedim have to do to get change out of a society that has it perfectly OK now and thus has no desire to change.
"In 1988, Rav Eli Sadan commissioned a survey, and discovered that of the boys who go straight to the army, fully 75% are no longer religious a year later. "
Rav Eli Sadan needs to commision a study for something that is obvious for anyone with one eye. Talk about blind leading the blind.
This justifies the charedi avoidance of the army. It also illustrates the weakness of the DL education and their willingness to sacrifice their children on the altar of the Molech of Zionism.
DL does produce an elite of scolars, but the עמך are lost in the process. A terrible shita.
All these mechina students can take 1 year defferment and learn in a yeshiva, just like the charedim do.
Slifkin has gone mad. He has lost this round.
"All these mechina students can take 1 year defferment and learn in a yeshiva, just like the charedim do."
Did you miss the part about the reason for all this? The manpower shortage in the IDF? Or do you just imagine that it's possible to not care about such things?
IDF and the political establishment bear the responsibility for the mess that the country is in. They and the DL system bear the responsibilty for the 75% drop out rate. Don't try to shift the blame to the charedim.
The political establishment exists due to charedi political support.
Charedim did not initiate any of the policies that led to the mess that the country is in now. Don't shift the blame.
Charedim were in the government, others weren't. Besides, whoever brought about the situation, the fact is that it exists.
No no , whoever bought about this situation is a major factor, you cant hide from that.
Charedim initiated the policy that made it necessary to draft Yeshiva boys who have less than a year of post-high school learning instead of young men who've learned several years. Charedim insist on continuing a policy, whether initiated by them or others, that according to you "led to the mess that the country is in now". Charedim have continuously, with little interruption have been members of the gov't responsible for all policies.
Charedim should initiate a policy that allows the younger DL boys to share the burden of Torah study before going into the army.
This is false. Chareidim never made such a policy, and have always asked for exemptions for all full time yeshiva students. The non-chareidim decided they want yeshivos that also combine army service rather than full-time yeshivos. The chareidim never asked for that.
Chareidim already "initiated a policy that allows the younger DL boys to share the burden of Torah study before going into the army." It is called full-time yeshiva, and all DL boys are qualified.
The DL should take care of their community, not the charedim.
What policy? Please be specific. Then tell us whether UTJ voted against such policy.
I'll remind you that Jonathan Rosenblum, in the wake of the withdrawal from Gaza wrote that UTJ will cast a deciding vote on matters of security. A statement like that makes your claim rather vacuous.
UTJ *did* play a critical role in supporting the withdrawal. In exchange for money, of course.
Do you have any idea of how many Jews have "dropped out" over the years? Millions! Judaism makes a *lot* of demands. It is *hard*. That *anyone* remains is a miracle. Religious Jews in general like to ignore these facts, but that doesn't make them less true.
I don't understand. You don't think it's of the greatest importance to keep our communities frum? We think it's much more important than having a Jewish State of Israel in Eretz Yisrael. Do you disagree?
False dichotomy. You can have a Jewish State and keep communities frum. Furthermore, if we allow a more expansive definition of "frum", or at least consider increased religious observance as a desideratum, than it's clear that a Jewish State does assist all communities to keep more מצות.
So why not both? Why do you believe that there's a choice between ישוב ארץ ישראל and observance of מצות?
It depends what you mean by more expansive definition of frum. Some more expansive definitions are just unacceptable to chareidim. I said in the other comments that chareidim have many problems with dati-leumi hashkafos. I don't think they would be necessarily be ok with what those communities accept as "frum". I didn't say it can't be both. I was responding to Nachum who seemed to take it as a given that it can't be both.
", if we allow a more expansive definition of "frum","
Chareidim believe it is not up to us to decide what the Torah says.
charedim beleive it is up to charedim to decide what the Torah says. anyone else is by definition wrong
This is an obvious falsehood.
Even if you want to argue that chareidi beliefs are subjective, the chareidim don't believe them to be.
>"Do you have any idea of how many Jews have "dropped out" over the years? Millions! Judaism makes a *lot* of demands. It is *hard*. That *anyone* remains is a miracle. Religious Jews in general like to ignore these facts, but that doesn't make them less true"
Au contraire: the demands of halacha, and the difficulty of living a halachic life, is a major theme, both in the traditional sources ("taryag mitzvos"), and colloquially ("s'iz shver tzu zayan a yid").
And from sociology of religion perspective, the most successful religions ("successful" in the Darwinian sense, of surviving and growing) put massive demands on their adherents (compare the Amish, one of the fastest growing religious groups in the world)
The "study" is flawed. I am told by my sons and others that many of those who became not religious while on Tzahal were חוזר בתשובה agree yet they left the army. A new study is needed.
Well, the answer is obvious: They're not learning "real" Torah.
A long time ago I read a book that must have been written in the late 70's or early 80's in which the author described an IDF swearing-in at the Kotel, and how there were some charedim- I imagine these are the more extreme ones- screaming at it, how dare they "desecrate" the Kotel yada yada. (Never mind that the charedim are only able to reach the Kotel thanks to the IDF.)
I recall that the author pointed out that the screamers got *really* mad when the chaplain got up and gave a very religious speech. The IDF, nu. But someone else claiming to be frum but not in your style? Gevalt!
So don't be too sure that the charedim wouldn't ultimately see this as a plus.
Could be. I met a dati nature educator who was allowed to teach nature classes to charedim as long as he didn't put any Torah in it.
I'm having fond memories of my YU biology classes, which were full of both hashkafa and halakha.
Agreed. From a chareidi perspective, they are probably not learning Torah the "right" way. And we mean in a different way than the difference between litvish and chassidish and sefardi learning. I don't know what they learn in Rabbi Ofran's yeshiva but I know that many chareidim are not at all ok with the Torah on this blog, so if it's a similar hashkafa, I can see why they wouldn't consider it right.
But it's more than that. See my other comment.
How is this even relevant that's a completely extreme example!
Not "Real" torah come on that's just too far.
So tell me that the Torah being learned in hesder yeshivot, in mechinot, in YU, is of the same level as that being learned in Lakewood, Mir, etc., and you can prove me wrong.
What are you going on about , I never said anything about that , you are the one making the distinctions here.
You're not the only person in the world, you know. But thanks for proving my point anyway.
I honestly dont know what you are talking about , please explain.
Who mentioned anything about levels of learning?
If you could do so without being condescending that would also be great
"Never mind that the charedim are only able to reach the Kotel thanks to the IDF."
Which is why the Satmar are not allowed to go to the Kotel. (Why they're allowed anywhere else in Israel is another matter.)
Good point.
I wonder which makes me more upset: One group expressing a lack of hakarat hatov, or the Briskers' bizarre belief that the Kotel is the wall of the Mikdash (or the halakhic Har HaBayit) itself (it is obviously neither) and thus they can't approach it too closely lest the wall be wider at the bottom below ground level (it isn't) and they tread on sacred ground. Ingratitude or lack of factual thinking? It's a toughie.
A lot of times when I'm there I see people- women, always, I think- standing way past the glass barriers at the southern end, deep in prayer. I wonder which group they are. Briskers would make sense. Satmars...well, that spot was also liberated by the IDF.
Well, the actual wall of the halakhic Har HaBayit- the 500 square amah one built by Chizkiyahu- is, as the Gemara explicitly says, many meters east of the Kotel, which was built by Herod. Not only does the Gemara say it, but you can *actually see the wall* poking out of the ground. (And it's mutar for a t'vul yom to step on the Har HaBayit in any event.) To pretend the Kotel is anywhere near the Har HaBayit is to ignore not only what we can plainly see but Chazal as well.
So if, Israeli Army=bad for torah values...then...
Why should the chareidi world who's been fighting this since the beginning of the state stop learning for these other guys? In other words, the chareidi bochurim who are (hopefully) pure and trying their hardest to stay that way should get sullied. And it's their fault to look out for the other guys ruchnius? When has Judaism ever worked that way?
And please stop preaching about Moshe Rabbeinu's army. If he was the commander in chief, absolutely. But again, Israeli Army = bad for torah values. And with all due respect for the important role your daughter plays, Moshe Rabbeinu would not have asked any female to serve.
"And it's their fault to look out for the other guys ruchnius? When has Judaism ever worked that way?"
Thank your for making my point. The charedi insistence on army exemption has nothing to do with their Torah studies being important for Israel, it's because their Torah studies are important *to them*, and to hell with everyone else.
This is not true.
In general I think this is true. Someone asked RGR why if learning is the highest ideal, do we stop to daven. His answer was along the lines that not too many people are at the level of their torah protecting themselves or the masses.
The Talmud says we stop learning to daven because we stop for our personal matters.
By the way, with regard to your question "When has Judaism ever worked that way?", there is a very simply and ironic answer. There is indeed a situation in Judaism when people are expected to risk both their spiritual and physical wellbeing in order to help others. It's the mitzva of going to fight in a war.
Which brings me back to my point. Who are you comparing the Israeli government to? A Navi? A king with the urim vetumim? The sanhedrin?
Irrelevant. מלחמת מצוה is defined by saving Jews from enemies. It is not dependent on the government.
like the midinat hachashmonaim- as the Rambam states it was a legit malchus yisroelm for which we still give thanks on chanuka, depite the many sins of their kings, and lack of urim vetummim and ignoring (and killing!) the sanhedrin.
That's why they were מעטים
...
The Charedim don't have time to go to the Army. They are too busy drowning puppies. And when they aren't, who will get the blood of the zionists for the Matzos if not the Charedim? They are pointing space Rothschild lasers and planning on world dominion, and the Army is a distraction. Whenever the Bildberg group is not meeting, the Charedim are building concentration camps in the Mid-west to deal with the 'other side', and running trafficking businesses from the basement of Pizza stores in 770. And who do you think develops the chips in the vaccines to control humanity? Kollel Yungeleit!
Most of those conspiracies make more sense than this one.
Could you please explain why you call "this one" a conspiracy?
To what do you refer?
Don't mock anti-Semitic/Zionist conspiracy theory. It was the practice of some Agudists over a century ago. Sure it was taken up later by Henry Ford, Hitler and others. But Agudah got there before them.
Leitzonus (or rudeness) is all they can do. You may have noticed by now they don't have proper answers or explanations.
Shame ,Shame calling RS hi ler! You are " prust " ..Any decent Chareidi would be proud to put you in Cherem.
Maybe the rabbi should directly go speak to the charedis?
Which ones?
Preferably those who have influence.
Actually doing something seems to be too rational an option, rather just continue to spread relentless hate , grow the divide , make the chareidim want to be a part of his ideology even less. A completely counter productive approach.
If charedim become politically toxic and are not able to make coalition demands, things could change.
So what the plan is basically to get everyone to hate them as much as possible,so that they will no longer be able to have a say in anything?
Not hate them. Realize how problematic their approach is for Israel.
Are you kidding? Most of your posts are about how cynical and selfish the chareidim are. These are your own words in a comment here- "extreme selfishness". This is "problematic approach"? If people would talk about how extremely selfish the Jews are, it would be nothing less than terrible anti-semitism. But you talk about it as casually as this morning's breakfast. Shim is 100% right.
People use the word hate because that's what they see in many of the posts and comments.Its not a projection.
If that is not your intention I suggest a less aggressive writing approach and a more aggressive hold on the comments.
Ok isolate them.
But there is a way to do that with respectful disagreement.
You are not merely pointing out how problematic their approach is to Israel.You are bashing their hashkafa as a klal, badmouthing their leaders and completely invalidating their entire Torah outlook.
You may be correct. But I dont think there is a productive approach to getting charedim to consider that they and their leaders may be wrong.
Yes but their is an approach which only makes things worse.At very least you can treat them with the respect of any other Jew,there are enough people that hate us already there is no need for us to hate eachother.
You still have not suggested an alternative. in either event My experience is that charedim find any serious or agressive critcism "disrespectful" or much worse, refelctions of hatred agaisn them and even hatred against Torah and the Ribono shel olam Himself רחמנה לצלן I have seen this in responses to my recent TOI article about this manner. People, including charedim, whow ere sympathic to waht I had to say, prasied it as a "repsectful" and articulate formaultion of how many DL feel about Charedim. Charedim who disagreed found it to be an unacceptable attack. The irony here is that charedi leadership has always and especially recently, has had nothing but distain for those who ride in the "empty wagon."
Why do I need to suggest an alternative, for me nothing is bettter than making things worse.
Yes many people get defensive when critisized, their response to criticism doesn't make their point of view invalid.
I have read the most disgusting things about chareidim and their leaders ,unprovoked.(some of it in the comments here )But that alone doesn't invalidate any non chareidi approach.
I for one am incredibly sympathetic to the RZ approach and can fully understand their frustration.What bothers me aren't the different points of view it's the many false and harmful conclusions that are drawn about the chareidim.Theres just a complete lack of respect (both ways).
Trying to figure out one thing that the defenders of the Chareidim seem to be overlooking. If the Arabs win, do you honestly think they'll spare the Chareidim because the Chareidim didn't serve?
They're looking for genocide. All of us. There won't be yeshivos if the Arabs win.
"If the arabs win"
Charedim don't know "if". Charedi policy is dictated by immediate expediency and does not consider long term"ifs". They leave the "ifs" to the secular and complain later.
I dealt with this issue in my recent TOI op ed
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-days-the-soldiers-died/
This is shocking.
However - isn't it also because the government won't pay the reservists? Wouldn't it be better to send in a trained military force that knows the terrain rather young kids with no experience?
With all due respect, I think there is another side to this. It is clear that the Hamas attack was an inside job. Sorry if you don't like it, but there's no way out of that conclusion. And over 400 soldiers were killed overnight. Gassed, I believe. Many other soldiers that died in Gaza lost their lives because the army did not give them available protection and exposed them. The war in Gaza after three months has only found three hostages, who were 'by mistake' shot on sight. The rumors are that the end game here is putting Abbas in charge of Gaza, with a Palesitinian state in Gaza and the West Bank. So the long term value of this romp around Gaza appears to be minimal, and is likely just another establishment game play. The Charedim have long experience of the Zionist state behaving in ways that are detrimental to them. In which case I really don't see any reason to sacrifice Charedi boys.
Rabbi Slifkin, while I appreciate your concern, this is a losing argument which misses the point. Chareidim often care more about quality than quantity. Many would rather see students from weaker backgrounds leave learning in order that students from stronger backgrounds stay in learning. Officially, this is ideologically neutral and would not depend on whether the talmid is Chareidi or Dati Leumi. (How this plays out in reality might be a very different story but discussing that requires gathering evidence.) Similarly, for good or for ill, Chareidim don't say that those in yeshiva should be involved in kiruv. Kiruv is wonderful but Chareidim will say it can't come at the expense of excelling in Torah learning to become a talmid chacham.
I am NOT arguing that this position is correct. I am simply responding based on my understanding of the facts. Debating this point of quality vs quantity would require a source-based discussion.
Talmid, I gave your comment a lot of thought. If it's true, then all it means is that Charedi society has a certain type of extreme elitism, which translates into extreme selfishness vis-a-vis the rest of the country.
Rabbi Dr. Slifkin, I appreciate you that you gave my comment a lot of thought. I'm frankly surprised you say "If it's true." You didn't hear this all the time in your Chareidi days? See Rav Dessler Michtav M'Eliyahu volume 3 page 355 as one source for this.
"then all it means is that Charedi society has a certain type of extreme elitism, which translates into extreme selfishness vis-a-vis the rest of the country."
I recognize that your brief comment does not represent an exhaustive treatment of a subject. Nonetheless, with all due respect, I think you need to grapple with the sources that they bring* before you render judgement and criticize. Additionally, off the top of my head, doesn't the Rambam, the rationalist par excellence have such an "elitist" view?
* One example, :ברכות ו
מאי (קהלת יב, יג) כי זה כל האדם א"ר אלעזר אמר הקב"ה כל העולם כלו לא נברא אלא בשביל זה רבי אבא בר כהנא אמר שקול זה כנגד כל העולם כולו ר' שמעון בן עזאי אומר ואמרי לה ר' שמעון בן זומא אומר כל העולם כולו לא נברא אלא לצוות לזה:
The sources are typical hyperbole. And in this case, we are not talking about selecting some people to be gedolei Torah, we are talking about the likely sacrifice of people to not being religious.
"The sources are typical hyperbole."
In a scholarly discourse, one must first perform a literature review.
"we are not talking about selecting some people to be gedolei Torah, we are talking about the likely sacrifice of people to not being religious."
But you made your blog post primarily about Torah learning, not about staying frum. Regardless, I'm sure there are other sources out there.
I am NOT necessarily disagreeing with your conclusions. I just would like a source-based discussion.
I agree that traditional litvische yeshivishe culture was very elitist. IT bleived that the only way to true dvekus was learning Torah truely lishmah. But this meant that most people could never really come close to hashem. Chasisidm of course argued the opposite. The is a story that some one asked on of the great pre war litvische gedolim (I am pretty sure I know who but need to check the soruces) about the fact that the German Neo-Orhtodox day school system was much better at keeping kids frum that litvische cheders and yeshivos. his response was, how gedolim has this system produced.
But today, especially in Israel the system the opposite. The idea that everyone born into the system must learn full time learn term, regardless of inclination of ability is precisely what underlies the current crisis. If they reall cared about quality, they would agree to send their weak kids to the army so our top guys could back to learning. I think this is much more that they are not "goyres" us. Indeed charedi discourse generally ignores the existence of serious RZ yeshivos and communites. They are the biggest challenge to their ideology
" his response was, how gedolim has this system produced."
Except it didn't. Most (much?) of the Lithunian gedolim were produced outside the system.
Or elitism could be defined by: בני די לעולם אני ואתה
That's a model that doesn't sacrifice the rest of the wider community for hundreds of thousands of people posing as the elite.
I believe the view is that the Jewish people require great scholars more than they need general knowledge. I've heard this framed as " pressburg vs. Volozhin" with volozhin holding this view.
"Chareidim often care more about quality than quantity. Many would rather see students from weaker backgrounds leave learning in order that students from stronger backgrounds stay in learning. "
But that is not the case. I haven't heard the Charedi leadership advocate for that model.
"I haven't heard the Charedi leadership advocate for that model."
I don't have time to provide more sources but start with Rav Dessler Michtav M'Eliyahu 3, page 355.
1) Has that source been canonized?
2) Did Rav Dessler actually "rather see students from weaker backgrounds leave learning in order that students from stronger backgrounds stay in learning". At what age what should weaker students leave? How does a weaker student prevent the stronger student from learning?
I simply cited Rav Dessler to demonstrate the quality vs quantity approach among Chareidim. In my opinion, Rav Dessler certainly has not been canonized and can be potentially critiqued on the basis of earlier sources.
I don't know off the top of my head what Rav Dessler said. As mentioned, I was simply citing Rav Dessler as an indication of the quality vs quantity approach among Chareidim. I suspect one will find this approach many times going through the letters of Rav Shach and others.
"How does a weaker student prevent the stronger student from learning?"
In our case - the choice is whom to draft. Mechinah likely doesn't have as rigorous a learning schedule as a Yeshiva (it often includes psychological preparation for the army). These students also come from weaker backgrounds and will only stay in Mechinah for one year anyway. From a narrow perspective of maximizing Torah study, it is obvious to draft these Mechinah students early rather than draft students learning long-learn in formal yeshivos. Again, I am not saying that this narrow perspective is correct. Rabbi Dr. Natan Slifkin advocates that Chareidim leave their learning so these students in mechinot can finish their year. A source to support Rabbi Slifkin could be the Mechaber paskening that one can mechalel Shabbas to prevent spiritual pikuach nefesh (saving a Jewish child from being taken to be raised by non-Jews). Since this isn't a shayla of chillul Shabbas (or more precisely anyone fighting will mechalel Shabbas anyway). even those who are cholek on the Mechaber could possibly agree here to draft yeshiva students. This also may not be the right way to analyze the question.
Lchatchila vs. Bdieved. Why should they offer the Bdieved when they can have Lchatchila.
This happens to be an old "volozhin vs. Pressburg " distinction. (Good balei batim or gedolim)