So when did they have the time to smuggle themselves into a post about schlissel challah? Obviously, those thousands fighting are just another mirage, so their parents can feel good about themselves.
I have a brand new segula for parnassah. It involves getting an education, drafting a resume, networking with people in the profession, and applying for a job. It works for a lot of people I know.
If you are being careful though, your definition of segulah covers everything. Ultimately, the most basic explanation you can find via scientific means is an equation telling you how things work, but not why. Eventually, you can't explain why Einstein's equation for gravity is the way it is. It just is. (and if later it is reduced to something else, then that something else will remain unexplained). And while we believe that macroscopic processes are explainable by the most basic equations, it is often (usually?) the case that we can't make that reduction. That is why Rambam allows for "segulot" as long as they are backed by experience, even if no explanation understood. Which means the Rambam's distinction is not completely coherent. In fact Rambam himself believed in some stuff that we would call superstitious today.
I think that a better way to say it is a phenomenon that you believe is not reducible to material forces but requires some new other system which either overrides or somehow evades the usual predictions of materialistic approaches.
So when it was thought that material forces could only operate locally and it was also thought that magnets operatored non-locally, then magnets were a segulah. Newton had this problem with gravity which he left as an open question. The resolution is that material influences are local but fields are real things that travel at up to the speed of light so that it appears that the forces are non-local.
Rabbi, I'm sorry you are in so much pain. It's painful to watch you like this.
You ignore basic Jewish sources and think that you have it all worked out, as you turn that ignorance into animosity towards other fellow Jews who you can learn something from if you tried to get to know them better. I am an outsider, but knowing many Charedim *personally*, despite our disagreements, we teach each other. A lot. They learn from my open mindedness and through me they can accept the faults in their system. While I learn from their true, fundamental understanding of our religion; something that is hard to understand unless closed off a bit. You would do well if you would speak to them in a more personal, relationship manner, not with incessant blog rants and predetermined opinions.
To your point, what would've happened if you were around during the Purim story (do you believe the academics that it didn't even happen)? Is Teshuvah just another segula as well? Was it really Achashveirosh who saved the Jews then? What religion are you a part of that you are so miffed at your own?
My suggestion: do a little reading of how Judaism works and turn your anger into understanding. I think you have a lot to offer if you would screw your head on correctly and take a step back. Like you, I also don't think the Charedi system is all that perfect, but you will get nowhere if you ignore their sources. They aren't as stupid (or as wrong) as you think. But I suspect the blogosphere reinforces your view of them.
you are apparently unaware that I spent many years in the charedi yeshivah system, and I was even an advocate for the approach of avoiding army service. I know exactly what they think because I used to be one of them.
ah, used to be. i wondered. because i saw this inaccurate article and my first thought was: hmm, you don't like charedim very much do you? and then realized it was written by a rabbi. or also not that anymore?
signed, a charedi architectural engineer, married to a charedi mortgage broker, who works with charedi construction engineers, interior designers, surveyors, real estate agents. i guess we all got our careers by praying. maybe if i pray hard enough my associates degree will turn into a BA. didn't work for my charedi friend, she worked very hard for years, but you seem to think that's all we do...
I presume you are in America. In Israel, Charedi men don't get even high school level secular education let alone an associates degree. Women are allowed to work, but are not allowed to attend institutions of higher learning and so cannot earn whatever the israeli equivalent of an associates degree is. America is completely different. Yeshivish women are encouraged to get degrees in various areas in special charedi institutions to support their husbands in learning, and there even programs for yeshivish men. The approximate educational equivalent of charedim in Israel are Chassidim in the closed communities in the US such as KJ, New Square and Williamsburg. There the men learn minimal secular studies until 8th grade and then none after and come out illiterate in English.
you'd be presuming wrong, i'm not even american. live in israel 25 years. got my architect's associates degree 16 years ago. and i wasn't alone.
"so cannot earn whatever the israeli equivalent of an associates degree is" you must not have heard of המרכז החרדי להכשרה מקצועית who have several branches, in Jerusalem, in Bnei Barak, and more, and offer associate degrees for both men and women. and are well attended.
Don't you know? The Purim story was caused by Mordechai's quick thinking, Esther's street smarts, Achashveirosh's sympathy, and the might of the Jewish warriors who fought back. The teshuvah was just a psychological placebo for Esther to go to the king because she believed in the magic teshuvah, like she requested. G-d had nothing to do with it. Oh, and it was all Mordechai's fault in the first place.
The segulah of putting a key inside a challah cannot be compared to learning Torah, which is clear in many Chazal sources that it helps protect the Jewish nation. Furthermore, the people most likely to be engaging in the segulah of inserting a key into a challah, chassidim, are also the most likely to be earning parnassah by the sweat of their brow. In the most literal sense, far more chassidim engage in manual labor than other sectors of orthodoxy.
"which is clear in many Chazal sources that it helps protect the Jewish nation" - but not as magic. Not as a replacement for normal hishtadlus of military effort.
Magic has nothing to do with this. Nobody said that it is a total replacement for normal hishtadlus. It is a supplement to normal hishtadlus. It is not normal hishtadlus for everybody in the country to serve in the military.
"It is not normal hishtadlus for everybody in the country to serve in the military."
You're conflating השתדלות with obligation. Of course, an entire community, consisting of many non-learners and sub-לוי learners, not serving in the military is also not normal השתדלות.
It is not normal hishtadlus for everybody in the country to serve in the military. - perhaps that has been true but in the coming months and years may not be.
Lol, rationalists don't believe that stuff. It doesn't matter whether a recent chassidishe minhag or whether Chazal or the Chumash says it, it's magical, irrational thinking. They are all philosophical materialists, you're lucky if they admit to believing in G-d.
I grew up in the '70s and '80s what one might term "Right-Wing Modern Orthodox" in Brooklyn, NY. I had a Yeshiva Day school education, year in Israel after high school, etc. I never heard of this minhag until around age 40. Since then it's exploded in popularity. And young people don't seem to have any idea that this was a very fringe, almost unheard of minhag until extremely recently.
"right wing modern orthodox" - only a word in all this list gives me half an idea about your Judaism. And even that word, orthodox, is a misnomer.
It always amazes me when I meet American olim here in Israel, they try to dissect me to the deepest organs of my Jewish soul, and I see their frustration when I refuse to play the game, and I go with סתם יהודי.
Compare that to Israelis or even Jews from less affluent and smaller communities in Easter Europe or central Asia, whose only concern is Jewish, that's the beginning and the end.
Manna stopped falling when we came to Israel. Now it's up to us to plow our fields. Or are you a reformer and trying to get rid of all the mitzvot that include plowing?
Correlation does not equal causation. Costume dressing is widespread in the non Jewish world. That is zero evidence that our purim dressing up comes from that!
Next you will be telling me that the chassidish obsession with lighting candles and rebbes is sourced from the Catholic practices of saints and church candles :)
Purim costumes were not universal. Sephardim didn't have them. (Of course they do now.) Sephardim also didn't have Purim shpiels. The fact that the Christian world has both (Carnival and Passion Plays) at that time of the year, and only Ashkenazim have Purim costumes and shpiels, is telling at least.
By the way, graggers (even the *word*) very possibly comes from the substitutes used in churches for bells during Lent.
Why does my comment bother you so much? There's nothing in megillat Estair or in the gemara about dressing up on Purim. No one claims it's halachic, like lighting Shabbat candles. It's a relatively late minhag.
The correlation is that both cultures were celebrating in the streets at the same time so one saw others dressing up and presto. It’s a Chazal approved mingag that goes so far back it’s even pre Purim approved.
As a rationalist I have long had a visceral reaction to shlissel challah. It is so eerily reminiscent of all the issues the Rambam screamed about; דרכי האמורי; segulos and pagan customs. However, reading your essay inspired me to take another look at it. Perhaps it is important in our generation to counter the strong wave of materialism. And what better time to take that lesson than right after פסח, the חג of ניסים?
In fact, you got me thinking that perhaps this is the idea behind shlissel challah, that as we transition from the חג of ניסים to the world of טבע, from the חג המצות, of גאולה בחפזון and לא הספיק בצקם להחמיץ to the year of working long and hard for עולם הזה, it is important to remind ourselves that the real "key" to all עולם הזה is לא על הלחם לבדו יחיה האדם כי על כל מוצא פי ה' יחיה האדם, and where better to place this reminder than in the first Shabbos challah that we return to eat; that Challah which reminds us of the mannah which we ate from when the מצה of מצרים ran out until we ate מצה in ארץ ישראל?
After writing this I noticed that sifrei Chasiddus give similar explanations.
Hey FYI the post from Rabbi Hoffman is from 2013, that is slightly misleading, if you were unaware the other article linked is a sham research by a christian missionary. The updated article by Rabbi Hoffman from 2021 would have been more appropriate. I think he won this one on the rationalist contest.. see link below https://vinnews.com/2021/04/29/is-there-yet-another-missionary-jewish-leader-in-our-midst/
I beg to differ with you. All segulos are a step to Avodah Zara. You should remind that person that there is no independent force other than God. Even the angels can only do what God tells them to do.
There is too much superstition today.
Also the meaning of the word segulah has been perveted. Rambam had used the word in a different context. Unfortunately, I dont remember the context. But people began using the word for a different meaning.
A great blessing would occur if people would just think why they are doing the things they sometimes do. But it takes effort to do that.
I use segulos as beneficial instruments of Hashem’s motivational imperatives. For instance, if I want to assure myself that he won’t take vengeance on me right after Yom Kipur havdallah despite my pleadings during the holy day, I employ the Kaporos segulo to save me from his wrath.
However the Psilocybin segulo is the best one to assure yourself that you’ll receive the parnassah you’re so desperate for. So bake a few chunks of proper hechsher approved magic mushrooms along side the shlissel in the challah dough and you’re guaranteed a year of wealth and prosperity.
How did the IDF issue smuggle itself into this?
One can only wonder.
Maslow's hammer comes to mind. Or rather, Maslow's old shoe that he thinks will bang nails.
It's an ancient pagan custom to make everything about fighting and warriors.
Because we have thousands fighting every second of every day in an existential war?
So when did they have the time to smuggle themselves into a post about schlissel challah? Obviously, those thousands fighting are just another mirage, so their parents can feel good about themselves.
I prefer Maxwell's (Silver) Hammer
Or Arm and Hammer. Or Peter Gabriel's Seldgehammer.
I have a brand new segula for parnassah. It involves getting an education, drafting a resume, networking with people in the profession, and applying for a job. It works for a lot of people I know.
No. That's not a סגולה. A סגולה, by definition is something whose (alleged) effectiveness is not explainable by natural processes.
I know you're being cynical, but I don't think it's helpful to conflate the term.
If you are being careful though, your definition of segulah covers everything. Ultimately, the most basic explanation you can find via scientific means is an equation telling you how things work, but not why. Eventually, you can't explain why Einstein's equation for gravity is the way it is. It just is. (and if later it is reduced to something else, then that something else will remain unexplained). And while we believe that macroscopic processes are explainable by the most basic equations, it is often (usually?) the case that we can't make that reduction. That is why Rambam allows for "segulot" as long as they are backed by experience, even if no explanation understood. Which means the Rambam's distinction is not completely coherent. In fact Rambam himself believed in some stuff that we would call superstitious today.
I think that a better way to say it is a phenomenon that you believe is not reducible to material forces but requires some new other system which either overrides or somehow evades the usual predictions of materialistic approaches.
So when it was thought that material forces could only operate locally and it was also thought that magnets operatored non-locally, then magnets were a segulah. Newton had this problem with gravity which he left as an open question. The resolution is that material influences are local but fields are real things that travel at up to the speed of light so that it appears that the forces are non-local.
Especially at Harvard. It's well known that Harvard is a beacon of all that's wise and just. Columbia too.
That is not a new segula, it is in the Gemara - קידושין כט ע"א
But only relevant for Jews who take the Gemara seriously.
It doesn't work for everyone, you know.
why not both?
Lol
Great piece, well-said, shkoyach
Rabbi, I'm sorry you are in so much pain. It's painful to watch you like this.
You ignore basic Jewish sources and think that you have it all worked out, as you turn that ignorance into animosity towards other fellow Jews who you can learn something from if you tried to get to know them better. I am an outsider, but knowing many Charedim *personally*, despite our disagreements, we teach each other. A lot. They learn from my open mindedness and through me they can accept the faults in their system. While I learn from their true, fundamental understanding of our religion; something that is hard to understand unless closed off a bit. You would do well if you would speak to them in a more personal, relationship manner, not with incessant blog rants and predetermined opinions.
To your point, what would've happened if you were around during the Purim story (do you believe the academics that it didn't even happen)? Is Teshuvah just another segula as well? Was it really Achashveirosh who saved the Jews then? What religion are you a part of that you are so miffed at your own?
My suggestion: do a little reading of how Judaism works and turn your anger into understanding. I think you have a lot to offer if you would screw your head on correctly and take a step back. Like you, I also don't think the Charedi system is all that perfect, but you will get nowhere if you ignore their sources. They aren't as stupid (or as wrong) as you think. But I suspect the blogosphere reinforces your view of them.
Peace
Yo 😎
you are apparently unaware that I spent many years in the charedi yeshivah system, and I was even an advocate for the approach of avoiding army service. I know exactly what they think because I used to be one of them.
ah, used to be. i wondered. because i saw this inaccurate article and my first thought was: hmm, you don't like charedim very much do you? and then realized it was written by a rabbi. or also not that anymore?
signed, a charedi architectural engineer, married to a charedi mortgage broker, who works with charedi construction engineers, interior designers, surveyors, real estate agents. i guess we all got our careers by praying. maybe if i pray hard enough my associates degree will turn into a BA. didn't work for my charedi friend, she worked very hard for years, but you seem to think that's all we do...
I presume you are in America. In Israel, Charedi men don't get even high school level secular education let alone an associates degree. Women are allowed to work, but are not allowed to attend institutions of higher learning and so cannot earn whatever the israeli equivalent of an associates degree is. America is completely different. Yeshivish women are encouraged to get degrees in various areas in special charedi institutions to support their husbands in learning, and there even programs for yeshivish men. The approximate educational equivalent of charedim in Israel are Chassidim in the closed communities in the US such as KJ, New Square and Williamsburg. There the men learn minimal secular studies until 8th grade and then none after and come out illiterate in English.
you'd be presuming wrong, i'm not even american. live in israel 25 years. got my architect's associates degree 16 years ago. and i wasn't alone.
"so cannot earn whatever the israeli equivalent of an associates degree is" you must not have heard of המרכז החרדי להכשרה מקצועית who have several branches, in Jerusalem, in Bnei Barak, and more, and offer associate degrees for both men and women. and are well attended.
Are you a ba'las teshuvoh or immigrant?
i am both, but that's really not relevant as 90% people i work with and know are neither.
Boy, you don’t know the very erudite R’Dr.Slifkin very well, do you?????
Don't you know? The Purim story was caused by Mordechai's quick thinking, Esther's street smarts, Achashveirosh's sympathy, and the might of the Jewish warriors who fought back. The teshuvah was just a psychological placebo for Esther to go to the king because she believed in the magic teshuvah, like she requested. G-d had nothing to do with it. Oh, and it was all Mordechai's fault in the first place.
Strange that Mordechai and Esther and the Jewish warriors went to such efforts, and didn't just learn Torah!
That was some "effort", much less than modern day chareidim!
The segulah of putting a key inside a challah cannot be compared to learning Torah, which is clear in many Chazal sources that it helps protect the Jewish nation. Furthermore, the people most likely to be engaging in the segulah of inserting a key into a challah, chassidim, are also the most likely to be earning parnassah by the sweat of their brow. In the most literal sense, far more chassidim engage in manual labor than other sectors of orthodoxy.
"which is clear in many Chazal sources that it helps protect the Jewish nation" - but not as magic. Not as a replacement for normal hishtadlus of military effort.
So you admit that your comparison was balderdash.
Magic has nothing to do with this. Nobody said that it is a total replacement for normal hishtadlus. It is a supplement to normal hishtadlus. It is not normal hishtadlus for everybody in the country to serve in the military.
"It is not normal hishtadlus for everybody in the country to serve in the military."
It is when you are surrounded by millions of people who want to exterminate you. You think that the IDF should shrink?
No, it's not.
I think it is likely that many people drafted into the IDF could be more productive elsewhere.
"It is not normal hishtadlus for everybody in the country to serve in the military."
You're conflating השתדלות with obligation. Of course, an entire community, consisting of many non-learners and sub-לוי learners, not serving in the military is also not normal השתדלות.
"Sub-לוי learners"
^^ WIN ^^
It is not normal hishtadlus for everybody in the country to serve in the military. - perhaps that has been true but in the coming months and years may not be.
Lol, rationalists don't believe that stuff. It doesn't matter whether a recent chassidishe minhag or whether Chazal or the Chumash says it, it's magical, irrational thinking. They are all philosophical materialists, you're lucky if they admit to believing in G-d.
I grew up in the '70s and '80s what one might term "Right-Wing Modern Orthodox" in Brooklyn, NY. I had a Yeshiva Day school education, year in Israel after high school, etc. I never heard of this minhag until around age 40. Since then it's exploded in popularity. And young people don't seem to have any idea that this was a very fringe, almost unheard of minhag until extremely recently.
Don't get me wrong, it's fun and mostly harmless, I just find it bewildering.
Besides 'fun', our entire planet is mostly harmless.
According to the Hitchhikers Guide, yes.
Are you more of an Encyclopedia Galactica guy? Without the Don't Panic in large friendly letters?
Sorry - you are looking at an Old Edition.
Because of space restrictions, the revised edition of the Hitchhiker's Guide revised the listing for earth as "Harmless"
Just don't use keys made of lead.
"right wing modern orthodox" - only a word in all this list gives me half an idea about your Judaism. And even that word, orthodox, is a misnomer.
It always amazes me when I meet American olim here in Israel, they try to dissect me to the deepest organs of my Jewish soul, and I see their frustration when I refuse to play the game, and I go with סתם יהודי.
Compare that to Israelis or even Jews from less affluent and smaller communities in Easter Europe or central Asia, whose only concern is Jewish, that's the beginning and the end.
Your OK if something has a Mekor in avodah zarah? What about Chukas Akum?
"why don't people try get it via a proven method ordered by Chazal themselves?"
How about the Torah itself like in והי אם שמוע תשמעו אל מצוותי אשר אנכי מצוך הים
You forgot a ה, and what do what does this passuk has to do with anything?
If you keep the mitzvos, Hashem will make it rain.
It doesn't say, if you plow your field
1. Segulos are not mitzvot
2. If you don't plow your field, the rain will not help.
Words of Chazal are, however,
as you wrote. And there's a clear spiritual cause and effect.
Manna could fall from the sky instead of rain, if we merit.
Manna stopped falling when we came to Israel. Now it's up to us to plow our fields. Or are you a reformer and trying to get rid of all the mitzvot that include plowing?
Vhaya is literally about what happens when we get to the Land of Israel למען ירבו ימיכם....בארץ
True - It says that if you do Mitzvot HaShem will make it rain.
But if you don't plow and plant your field, the rain will not make anything grow.
According to Micah Berger - https://aspaqlaria.aishdas.org/2024/05/01/the-possible-origin-of-the-schlissel-challah/
both milchig on shevous and purim dressing up have non-Jewish origins - anybody know anything about that?
I'll have to take a look at that, but if I recall correctly, dressing up on Purim had a great deal to do with the Italian Carnivale in the Middle ages
Correlation does not equal causation. Costume dressing is widespread in the non Jewish world. That is zero evidence that our purim dressing up comes from that!
Next you will be telling me that the chassidish obsession with lighting candles and rebbes is sourced from the Catholic practices of saints and church candles :)
Purim costumes were not universal. Sephardim didn't have them. (Of course they do now.) Sephardim also didn't have Purim shpiels. The fact that the Christian world has both (Carnival and Passion Plays) at that time of the year, and only Ashkenazim have Purim costumes and shpiels, is telling at least.
By the way, graggers (even the *word*) very possibly comes from the substitutes used in churches for bells during Lent.
Why does my comment bother you so much? There's nothing in megillat Estair or in the gemara about dressing up on Purim. No one claims it's halachic, like lighting Shabbat candles. It's a relatively late minhag.
The correlation is that both cultures were celebrating in the streets at the same time so one saw others dressing up and presto. It’s a Chazal approved mingag that goes so far back it’s even pre Purim approved.
Theodore Gaster/“festivals of the Jewish Year”
What does he say and what is his evidence?
If it's along the lines of "Elizabethen England also had carnivals with dressing up", forget it.
Read it.
Why? Can't you write herr in a summary what he says? I should spend money on it?
I'm surprised you haven't spoken on this yet. https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/2279991/harav-yitzchak-yosef-whoever-doesnt-believe-that-bnei-torah-are-protecting-israelis-is-an-apikores-see-the-video.html
"Better to be an Apikores than an Am Haaretz"
This blog is too ashkenormative!!
Is there a list of now Jewish once pagan customs?
Sefer chasidim; ספר שמירת הגוף והנפש
oy
Try reading the classic Trachtenberg,”Jewish Magic and Superstition”. Your view of many ‘holy minhagim’ will never be the same….
Beautiful.
As a rationalist I have long had a visceral reaction to shlissel challah. It is so eerily reminiscent of all the issues the Rambam screamed about; דרכי האמורי; segulos and pagan customs. However, reading your essay inspired me to take another look at it. Perhaps it is important in our generation to counter the strong wave of materialism. And what better time to take that lesson than right after פסח, the חג of ניסים?
In fact, you got me thinking that perhaps this is the idea behind shlissel challah, that as we transition from the חג of ניסים to the world of טבע, from the חג המצות, of גאולה בחפזון and לא הספיק בצקם להחמיץ to the year of working long and hard for עולם הזה, it is important to remind ourselves that the real "key" to all עולם הזה is לא על הלחם לבדו יחיה האדם כי על כל מוצא פי ה' יחיה האדם, and where better to place this reminder than in the first Shabbos challah that we return to eat; that Challah which reminds us of the mannah which we ate from when the מצה of מצרים ran out until we ate מצה in ארץ ישראל?
After writing this I noticed that sifrei Chasiddus give similar explanations.
Thank you for this beautiful inspiration.
Hey FYI the post from Rabbi Hoffman is from 2013, that is slightly misleading, if you were unaware the other article linked is a sham research by a christian missionary. The updated article by Rabbi Hoffman from 2021 would have been more appropriate. I think he won this one on the rationalist contest.. see link below https://vinnews.com/2021/04/29/is-there-yet-another-missionary-jewish-leader-in-our-midst/
If you’re serious, yes you should.
I beg to differ with you. All segulos are a step to Avodah Zara. You should remind that person that there is no independent force other than God. Even the angels can only do what God tells them to do.
There is too much superstition today.
Also the meaning of the word segulah has been perveted. Rambam had used the word in a different context. Unfortunately, I dont remember the context. But people began using the word for a different meaning.
A great blessing would occur if people would just think why they are doing the things they sometimes do. But it takes effort to do that.
I use segulos as beneficial instruments of Hashem’s motivational imperatives. For instance, if I want to assure myself that he won’t take vengeance on me right after Yom Kipur havdallah despite my pleadings during the holy day, I employ the Kaporos segulo to save me from his wrath.
However the Psilocybin segulo is the best one to assure yourself that you’ll receive the parnassah you’re so desperate for. So bake a few chunks of proper hechsher approved magic mushrooms along side the shlissel in the challah dough and you’re guaranteed a year of wealth and prosperity.
"and you’re guaranteed a year of wealth and prosperity. "
But that year only lasts a few hours.