The question is, which is the bigger problem - the charedi avoidance of army service, or reporting it? If the former, then reporting it (which helps change it) is necessary.
I honestly cannot imagine why you believe that reporting it publicly as a harsh complaint will help change it. Throwing mud rarely accomplished anything but getting mud thrown back at you. You want to change minds, show you understand and respect people if you want to actually accomplish something. In fact, I defy you to identify one single inch of progress that has resulted from all your negativity.
I can describe several inches. People being better informed for their voting choices, for their tzedakah choices, for their educational choices. People feeling relieved that they are not going crazy and that there are others who feel the same way.
None of that requires mud slinging. Many others have accomplished those same things by being direct, articulate and emotionally compelling without constantly and viciously attacking a whole society, most of whom are fine people who can't change anything about their leadership. You're just an enemy to them this way when you could have been a welcome and effective educator. I find that tragic.
Mud-slinging? Even when I disagree with him, I have always found Natan to be careful to a fault not to be insulting or unfair. Pointing out differences of opinion is not mud-slinging.
my response to the bubble boys: "what would you say to our cutting your stipends? But don't worry , every thursday night i'll bring a plate of delicious cookies to your beis midrash. to encourage you in your holy studies. And btw, when i say "holy studies", I'm not being sarcastic. I think it's wonderful. Keep it up!"
I have reached the conclusion that it is chutzpah if not worse for American religious people to make aliya while buying into the charedi refusal to go the army - both they themselves and their children.
Even though I don't justify charedim who were born and grew up here , we could look at them as "תינוק שנשבה" (sarcastically).
But olim who come to enjoy the standard of living, infrastructure and services provided today while never intending to shoulder their civic responsibilities - I'm note sure what the legal or halachic term for that kind of deception is!!
A big part of the problem is that these American "Yeshivish" olim incorrectly equate the Israeli religious zionists to the American Modern Orthodox. Thus, they assume that if someone is wearing a kippa sruga, no matter how big, the assumption is that they are less religious, less serious about learning Torah, and somehow their Yeshivot are lacking.
And yet the reality is that their hashkafa and level of observance are probably more in line with many of the kippa sruga than the chareidim. If only they would open their eyes!
Spot-on… until the [implicitly condescending] part about “the American Modern Orthodox”, which is quite inaccurate.
As within every group & sub-group there is there are always different types of people. But it’s wrong & offensive to imply that modern orthodoxy in the US as a whole, does not include very many young men (& women!) who are religiously stringent, & very serious about their Torah learning… and aside from not generally wearing a hat, absolutely do share most of the core values of those “American “yeshivish’ Olim”.
I’m not seeing how the Israeli DL are so fundamentally different from American RW MO… (aside from all the obvious but not necessarily *core* differences that come from being Israeli vs American, and even moreso Israeli frum vs American frum)
I AM inclined to agree that Yeshivish Americans—mistakenly, as you say—feel more of an affinity to hareidim than the Israeli DL types they ‘ought’ to relate to…
In other words, I think your main point was correct: American Yeshiva types who are essentially loyal to and supportive of Israel, are wrong to identify more with those Israeli hareidim who reject Israel, than with the Israeli DL who—like them!—are very frum, and also supportive of Israel.
And you may be right that the yeshivish Americans jump to this wrong conclusion because of the way they view the American MO.
But that, too, is *their* mistaken assumption--not the reality. Their mistake isn’t in thinking Israeli DL are comparable to American Orthodox.
Their mistake, which you are kind of perpetuating—is in portraying all American Mod. Orthodox as much less serious about Torah & about Israel than the Israel DL. That’s just not strictly true, or fair: Yes, those people are IN Israel, which obviously makes their commitment more substantial—but it’s not fair to grade Americans harshly, or dismiss their Zionism as superficial, for not having ALL made the choice to make Aliya, or join the IDF—that’s kind of like judging all irreligious Jews for not having become more observant. Those of us who were born into it, were born into it—it doesn’t necessarily reflect more wisdom or sacrifice on our part.
It’s not completely untrue… But it’s not completely true. I grew up in, and was solidly a part of the.The RW/yeshivish world… and I did not rebel against it, [which would likely mean my views are biased] so much as I got older, discovered the world beyond Borough Park & Flatbush, and learned that “modern orthodox“ did not just mean people who want to “cut corners” of halacha, or “take the easy way”… but it was rather a substantial, Intellectual hashkafa—
— But what IS disturbing is that within the heimishe/yeshivish world, people are completely ignorant, and/or dishonest about this. Most of them live in a bubble of their own, and they actually don’t know, much less convey to their children or students, that this Modern Orthodoxy is a hashkafa, albeit one they disagree with—not just a lifestyle made up by women who want to wear pants & not cover their hair.
As I recall concerning the abuse scandals, at the beginning lots of people of this stripe didn't want to hear about it, but as time went by and more scandals kept being found to be true, a great many quietly changed their tune. I recall talking about it early on to a very well-learned person in my community, who criticized me for spreading "shmutz". A couple years later, I was talking to him about something else and he spontaneously started condemning the abusers and everyone covering up for them. Maybe we'll see the same in this case.
Wow, when I saw "Have you ever seen any other rabbis bashing out other Jews in public OR private?" I almost spit out my coffee. Has this guy ever opened a Tanach? A Gemara? A mussar sefer? A charedi newspaper?
The term "chillul Hashem" has always been a pet peeve for me. Not only that people use it in the sense of "makes Orthodox Jews look bad" instead of its actual meaning, which is "makes God look bad," but more because even more than that, it's used as a cover for behavior that should just be considered as wrong, Orthodoxy and God notwithstanding.
In fairness, chareidi newspapers are not public internet forums, let alone the largest business networking website in the world. Though I am sympathetic to R Slifkin, I'm not sure LinkedIn is the appropriate place to have our intramural arguments.(But it is a good place to reach those people.)
The thing to remember is that we have an honor culture on par with the Islamic honor culture. The worst thing you can do to somebody in an honor culture is make them look bad. That's why whenever something bad is reported the initial response is not this person did something bad and how can we mitigate the harm, but it's to shoot the messenger because the messenger is making us look bad.
I beg to differ. First, it's in no way "on par" with Islamic honor culture. Second, it's born of a real anxiety of being a vulnerable minority, or once having been one. Muslims have never had such a problem. That doesn't justify it, but explains it, at least partially.
Think about how much the term kavod is used as in you aren't giving enough of it to the rabbis that I feel deserve it, and when you say something that makes them look bad, it's a question of bizayon. Similarly, how lashon hara gets trotted out so often in the case of scandals, because the real issue is never to address the harm done or to implement processes so that this doesn't happen again, is to do damage control so people don't look bad.
I believe the true person living in a bubble is a guy living in RBS in a totally Jewish country and not recognizing just how widespread Jew hate has become in the USA (based on terms like Parasites) and not realizing spreading messages like this on a nonJewish site can easily exacerbate that problem (as well as stories of child abuse).
Child abuse is never addressed until it is made public. If you believe this leads to antisemitism, please blame the abusers, not those who uncover and stop it.
This post is ignorant of an obvious point. Whether the "bubble Jews" you speak about, understand or don't understand your criticism - they are still absolutely 100% correct that publishing publicly the ills of Chareidi society on a non Jewish site - is a chillul Hashem!
This is an excellent post. In identifying the areas of disconnect, you lay a foundation for communication and education.
This observation is spot-on: “They think that achdus means Jews getting along and never criticizing each other, rather than it meaning caring for what other Jews are going through, sharing responsibility, and taking action against those who fail to do so.”
People who reflexively recoil from discord need models for opposing injustice while maintaining love and respect for one’s opponents. Those models surely exist and are replicable.
The charedim will do what their rabbis tell them to do. Therefore, instead of trying to arrest a few of the charedi draft dodgers, and getting more protests, those rabbis should be arrested and charged with inciting people to ignore call-up notices, which is a serious crime. They should be offered a choice: direct your followers to enlist now or go to jail. I believe that would have a major effect on solving the problem.
It might backfire if the status quo remained. But if these rabbeim were arrested for criminal incitement along with elimination of subsidies and benefits for them and their toadies, you might see a quick turnabout in their refusal to join their brave soldiers in defense of the country
"Would that be worse?" Yes, it would worse, because it would likely be counterproductive, and make charedim be less likely to serve, not more likely to serve
"They see it as a personal lifestyle choice, and even if they recognize that it might involve problematic aspects, they don’t grasp the harm that it causes to others." Americans, generally, are like that. Consider, for example, the anti-vaxxers and the people who refused to wear masks during Covid.
While I agree to your characterization of what you call "bubble Jews", the fact that you just encountered them recently on LinkedIn should really be troubling. You've literally been criticizing people (not just behaviors, but the people and the community themselves) for their lack of army participation for years, yet you have not never actually met large segments of the chareidi population.
No, I'm familiar with lots of charedim - I was part of that world for many years. But this is the first time that this particular group of charedim is encountering me!
You're reading the OP very uncharitably and unreasonably. Clearly, he was well aware of them (in fact, he's written about them multiple times), but certain aspects have become even more clear recently
That’s a strange point. Without asking him, I daresay it’s very unlikely that R’ Slifkin hasn’t met his share of hareidim.
Moreover, it happens all the time, and it is not unreasonable to criticize—not dehumanize; simply identify & criticize—the behavior of a group of people you have not actually met, provided you do know what they are doing.
Not many of us personally know “large segments” of the Palestinian population—does that invalidate all our observations about their beliefs & actions vis-a-vis Israel?
Some would argue, Yes—absolutely! Those people are wrong.
This Friday is Yom Yerushalayim. My schul Rav made a statement that is very powerful; but doesn't get nearly enough recognition. It is that the entire edifice of Torah study we have today stands on the pillar of the '67 War and the decisions the Israeli government made in its aftermath.
Think about it. Without Yerushalayim in its present form we would NOTt have:
The Gap year Yeshivas
The High School in Israel Yeshivas
Most all of the women's seminaries
The Kiruv Yeshivas
Charedi towns like Beitar Ilit and Kiryat Sefer wouldn't exist
Beit Shemesh would have remained a majority secular city
I think even Aliyah to Israel from the big four Anglo countries would be less than it has been.
The Charedi population itself would be smaller because all of the above provide recruitment for them - all of the "Bubble Jews" you talk about in your post would still be living in Chutz L'Aretz.
You're conveniently ignoring the elephant in the room. "Bubble Jews" are characterized first and foremost by their allegiance to a community Achdus that revolves entirely around their gedolim or at least rabbanim. You are asking them to do something they never, ever do - act independently and openly in a manner that will undoubtedly be taken in their community as a rebellion against all leadership and, as it will prove to be more divisive than anything else, an attack on achdus, the primary bond holding their community together.
Dati Leumi respect their great rabbis but have no leadership that in any way tells them what to think of defines the boundaries of their community. They are a community of independent thinkers. If you want to say something close to reality and helpful, give some advice about how a bubble Jew can bring change to his community without being hurled out of it and becoming a dime-a-dozen baal machlokes and making his family a pariah, completely ruining his life and his future.
The question is, which is the bigger problem - the charedi avoidance of army service, or reporting it? If the former, then reporting it (which helps change it) is necessary.
I honestly cannot imagine why you believe that reporting it publicly as a harsh complaint will help change it. Throwing mud rarely accomplished anything but getting mud thrown back at you. You want to change minds, show you understand and respect people if you want to actually accomplish something. In fact, I defy you to identify one single inch of progress that has resulted from all your negativity.
I can describe several inches. People being better informed for their voting choices, for their tzedakah choices, for their educational choices. People feeling relieved that they are not going crazy and that there are others who feel the same way.
None of that requires mud slinging. Many others have accomplished those same things by being direct, articulate and emotionally compelling without constantly and viciously attacking a whole society, most of whom are fine people who can't change anything about their leadership. You're just an enemy to them this way when you could have been a welcome and effective educator. I find that tragic.
Mud-slinging? Even when I disagree with him, I have always found Natan to be careful to a fault not to be insulting or unfair. Pointing out differences of opinion is not mud-slinging.
my response to the bubble boys: "what would you say to our cutting your stipends? But don't worry , every thursday night i'll bring a plate of delicious cookies to your beis midrash. to encourage you in your holy studies. And btw, when i say "holy studies", I'm not being sarcastic. I think it's wonderful. Keep it up!"
The term bubble boys, as used by OP, refers to working yeshivish men. So "your stipends" and "your studies" are a non sequitur
fine. how would they feel about my suggestion being applied to their community? my point remains
Great piece.
All of it is really well-written, well-argued, and to-the-point, as usual.
Just one of the many great lines:
"Even more to the point, if everyone was like them - baking cookies and making barbeques and gifting clothing - the country would cease to exist.
Israel cannot survive based on people doing some nice feel-good acts of chessed [...]"
Oh hi why did you block me?
I have reached the conclusion that it is chutzpah if not worse for American religious people to make aliya while buying into the charedi refusal to go the army - both they themselves and their children.
Even though I don't justify charedim who were born and grew up here , we could look at them as "תינוק שנשבה" (sarcastically).
But olim who come to enjoy the standard of living, infrastructure and services provided today while never intending to shoulder their civic responsibilities - I'm note sure what the legal or halachic term for that kind of deception is!!
A big part of the problem is that these American "Yeshivish" olim incorrectly equate the Israeli religious zionists to the American Modern Orthodox. Thus, they assume that if someone is wearing a kippa sruga, no matter how big, the assumption is that they are less religious, less serious about learning Torah, and somehow their Yeshivot are lacking.
And yet the reality is that their hashkafa and level of observance are probably more in line with many of the kippa sruga than the chareidim. If only they would open their eyes!
Spot-on… until the [implicitly condescending] part about “the American Modern Orthodox”, which is quite inaccurate.
As within every group & sub-group there is there are always different types of people. But it’s wrong & offensive to imply that modern orthodoxy in the US as a whole, does not include very many young men (& women!) who are religiously stringent, & very serious about their Torah learning… and aside from not generally wearing a hat, absolutely do share most of the core values of those “American “yeshivish’ Olim”.
Well, they assume the Israeli DL are similar to their *image* of American MO at least.
And they assume the Israeli charedim are the same as them, which is also wrong.
Unfortunately, in the generation of superficiality, it is hard to see past the hats and the kipot serugot....
I’m not seeing how the Israeli DL are so fundamentally different from American RW MO… (aside from all the obvious but not necessarily *core* differences that come from being Israeli vs American, and even moreso Israeli frum vs American frum)
I AM inclined to agree that Yeshivish Americans—mistakenly, as you say—feel more of an affinity to hareidim than the Israeli DL types they ‘ought’ to relate to…
In other words, I think your main point was correct: American Yeshiva types who are essentially loyal to and supportive of Israel, are wrong to identify more with those Israeli hareidim who reject Israel, than with the Israeli DL who—like them!—are very frum, and also supportive of Israel.
And you may be right that the yeshivish Americans jump to this wrong conclusion because of the way they view the American MO.
But that, too, is *their* mistaken assumption--not the reality. Their mistake isn’t in thinking Israeli DL are comparable to American Orthodox.
Their mistake, which you are kind of perpetuating—is in portraying all American Mod. Orthodox as much less serious about Torah & about Israel than the Israel DL. That’s just not strictly true, or fair: Yes, those people are IN Israel, which obviously makes their commitment more substantial—but it’s not fair to grade Americans harshly, or dismiss their Zionism as superficial, for not having ALL made the choice to make Aliya, or join the IDF—that’s kind of like judging all irreligious Jews for not having become more observant. Those of us who were born into it, were born into it—it doesn’t necessarily reflect more wisdom or sacrifice on our part.
What tends to happen to American Orthodox who are religiously "stringent" is that they join the more yeshivish communities
It’s not completely untrue… But it’s not completely true. I grew up in, and was solidly a part of the.The RW/yeshivish world… and I did not rebel against it, [which would likely mean my views are biased] so much as I got older, discovered the world beyond Borough Park & Flatbush, and learned that “modern orthodox“ did not just mean people who want to “cut corners” of halacha, or “take the easy way”… but it was rather a substantial, Intellectual hashkafa—
— But what IS disturbing is that within the heimishe/yeshivish world, people are completely ignorant, and/or dishonest about this. Most of them live in a bubble of their own, and they actually don’t know, much less convey to their children or students, that this Modern Orthodoxy is a hashkafa, albeit one they disagree with—not just a lifestyle made up by women who want to wear pants & not cover their hair.
As I recall concerning the abuse scandals, at the beginning lots of people of this stripe didn't want to hear about it, but as time went by and more scandals kept being found to be true, a great many quietly changed their tune. I recall talking about it early on to a very well-learned person in my community, who criticized me for spreading "shmutz". A couple years later, I was talking to him about something else and he spontaneously started condemning the abusers and everyone covering up for them. Maybe we'll see the same in this case.
Wow, when I saw "Have you ever seen any other rabbis bashing out other Jews in public OR private?" I almost spit out my coffee. Has this guy ever opened a Tanach? A Gemara? A mussar sefer? A charedi newspaper?
The term "chillul Hashem" has always been a pet peeve for me. Not only that people use it in the sense of "makes Orthodox Jews look bad" instead of its actual meaning, which is "makes God look bad," but more because even more than that, it's used as a cover for behavior that should just be considered as wrong, Orthodoxy and God notwithstanding.
In fairness, chareidi newspapers are not public internet forums, let alone the largest business networking website in the world. Though I am sympathetic to R Slifkin, I'm not sure LinkedIn is the appropriate place to have our intramural arguments.(But it is a good place to reach those people.)
The thing to remember is that we have an honor culture on par with the Islamic honor culture. The worst thing you can do to somebody in an honor culture is make them look bad. That's why whenever something bad is reported the initial response is not this person did something bad and how can we mitigate the harm, but it's to shoot the messenger because the messenger is making us look bad.
I beg to differ. First, it's in no way "on par" with Islamic honor culture. Second, it's born of a real anxiety of being a vulnerable minority, or once having been one. Muslims have never had such a problem. That doesn't justify it, but explains it, at least partially.
Think about how much the term kavod is used as in you aren't giving enough of it to the rabbis that I feel deserve it, and when you say something that makes them look bad, it's a question of bizayon. Similarly, how lashon hara gets trotted out so often in the case of scandals, because the real issue is never to address the harm done or to implement processes so that this doesn't happen again, is to do damage control so people don't look bad.
Still far from the same thing.
I believe the true person living in a bubble is a guy living in RBS in a totally Jewish country and not recognizing just how widespread Jew hate has become in the USA (based on terms like Parasites) and not realizing spreading messages like this on a nonJewish site can easily exacerbate that problem (as well as stories of child abuse).
Child abuse is never addressed until it is made public. If you believe this leads to antisemitism, please blame the abusers, not those who uncover and stop it.
This post is ignorant of an obvious point. Whether the "bubble Jews" you speak about, understand or don't understand your criticism - they are still absolutely 100% correct that publishing publicly the ills of Chareidi society on a non Jewish site - is a chillul Hashem!
This is an excellent post. In identifying the areas of disconnect, you lay a foundation for communication and education.
This observation is spot-on: “They think that achdus means Jews getting along and never criticizing each other, rather than it meaning caring for what other Jews are going through, sharing responsibility, and taking action against those who fail to do so.”
People who reflexively recoil from discord need models for opposing injustice while maintaining love and respect for one’s opponents. Those models surely exist and are replicable.
The charedim will do what their rabbis tell them to do. Therefore, instead of trying to arrest a few of the charedi draft dodgers, and getting more protests, those rabbis should be arrested and charged with inciting people to ignore call-up notices, which is a serious crime. They should be offered a choice: direct your followers to enlist now or go to jail. I believe that would have a major effect on solving the problem.
Interesting idea, but much more likely that that would backfire
@ Ezra Brand,
It might backfire if the status quo remained. But if these rabbeim were arrested for criminal incitement along with elimination of subsidies and benefits for them and their toadies, you might see a quick turnabout in their refusal to join their brave soldiers in defense of the country
"elimination of subsidies and benefits" is what would likely do it, yes. Unrelated to arrests
Would that be worse than the present situation where the army is desperately short of soldiers?
"Would that be worse?" Yes, it would worse, because it would likely be counterproductive, and make charedim be less likely to serve, not more likely to serve
Yes, it probably would.
Make some martyrs...
"They see it as a personal lifestyle choice, and even if they recognize that it might involve problematic aspects, they don’t grasp the harm that it causes to others." Americans, generally, are like that. Consider, for example, the anti-vaxxers and the people who refused to wear masks during Covid.
Those last two things are nothing like each other, at least in hindsight.
And let's not bash Americans here. The vast majority of charedim in Israel are not Anglo.
While I agree to your characterization of what you call "bubble Jews", the fact that you just encountered them recently on LinkedIn should really be troubling. You've literally been criticizing people (not just behaviors, but the people and the community themselves) for their lack of army participation for years, yet you have not never actually met large segments of the chareidi population.
No, I'm familiar with lots of charedim - I was part of that world for many years. But this is the first time that this particular group of charedim is encountering me!
Lol, you're living in an ego bubble, every Yeshivish guy on LinkedIn knows exactly who you are and who you aren't!!!!!!
I know that, but this is a large percentage of the chareidi population both in Israel and in the US, especially in recent years.
In the US, yes, but sadly not in Israel.
You're reading the OP very uncharitably and unreasonably. Clearly, he was well aware of them (in fact, he's written about them multiple times), but certain aspects have become even more clear recently
That’s a strange point. Without asking him, I daresay it’s very unlikely that R’ Slifkin hasn’t met his share of hareidim.
Moreover, it happens all the time, and it is not unreasonable to criticize—not dehumanize; simply identify & criticize—the behavior of a group of people you have not actually met, provided you do know what they are doing.
Not many of us personally know “large segments” of the Palestinian population—does that invalidate all our observations about their beliefs & actions vis-a-vis Israel?
Some would argue, Yes—absolutely! Those people are wrong.
Well put.
This Friday is Yom Yerushalayim. My schul Rav made a statement that is very powerful; but doesn't get nearly enough recognition. It is that the entire edifice of Torah study we have today stands on the pillar of the '67 War and the decisions the Israeli government made in its aftermath.
Think about it. Without Yerushalayim in its present form we would NOTt have:
The Gap year Yeshivas
The High School in Israel Yeshivas
Most all of the women's seminaries
The Kiruv Yeshivas
Charedi towns like Beitar Ilit and Kiryat Sefer wouldn't exist
Beit Shemesh would have remained a majority secular city
I think even Aliyah to Israel from the big four Anglo countries would be less than it has been.
The Charedi population itself would be smaller because all of the above provide recruitment for them - all of the "Bubble Jews" you talk about in your post would still be living in Chutz L'Aretz.
You're conveniently ignoring the elephant in the room. "Bubble Jews" are characterized first and foremost by their allegiance to a community Achdus that revolves entirely around their gedolim or at least rabbanim. You are asking them to do something they never, ever do - act independently and openly in a manner that will undoubtedly be taken in their community as a rebellion against all leadership and, as it will prove to be more divisive than anything else, an attack on achdus, the primary bond holding their community together.
Dati Leumi respect their great rabbis but have no leadership that in any way tells them what to think of defines the boundaries of their community. They are a community of independent thinkers. If you want to say something close to reality and helpful, give some advice about how a bubble Jew can bring change to his community without being hurled out of it and becoming a dime-a-dozen baal machlokes and making his family a pariah, completely ruining his life and his future.
Perfectly said. Thank you.