What a better place than here where many folks who are wedded to Chareidism are offered rational argumentations by a notable Torah scholar and PhD to disabuse them of their unrestrained conviction that certain protected Yidden are exempt from taking up arms to defend their land from a savage foe?
The time and place the author of this blog chooses, for instance. I would agree if a similar blog was written immediately after October 7th, but yesterday was a small victory.
Actually, I think it's infinitely more sad that hundreds of thousands of charedim are refusing to alleviate the burden of the millions of people in Israeli families that are suffering from the war. But I guess that's just me.
Its sad that we continue to miss the boat. Most Charedim would love to serve in the army, if it was a completely charedi army. (See vayakhel.com for details.)
As soon as the charedim are the majority, the IDF will become a charedi army and the charedim will serve en masse. Until that happens, the charedim will not serve, unless a separate charedi-run army is established.
Again, see vayakhel.com for the real reason charedim won't serve in the IDF. Anything else is bluff.
And the reasons expressed at vayakhel.com are actually very rational.
The worst part of the story is he advocates for a paramilitary organisation run by Charedim. I have been in the middle of their demonstrations in front of recruitment centres and even got a hit (that wasn't directed at me, but still hurts). It would be insane to give these people weapons, seeing their regard for the rest of Israelis.
I'm not promoting a website. I'm promoting the video because it describes in great detail why the charedim will never serve in the IDF. Anyone who claims that charedim don't serve because of Torah is barking up the wrong tree and will never find a solution to the problem.
But if we all watch this video and understand the true reason the charedim will never serve in the IDF, we as a society can come together and find a real solution to the problem.
Personally I think the solution is to create 2 separate armies. One for the chilonim and one for the charedim. The charedi army should have charedi generals and only charedim can enter the army bases. This will ensure that the charedi soldiers have a 100% charedi environment like they have now in their yeshivos.
This will solve the problem, and the charedim will join the charedi army en masse.
Anyone telling you otherwise is not being honest with you.
But if you think I'm promoting a website, no problem. There's nothing on the website except the video. Just watch the video and you will be enlightened to the true cause of the current crisis, and then we can all figure out a good solution together.
I challenge you to honestly find real solutions to a very real problem, instead of just bashing everyone.
"Personally I think the solution is to create 2 separate armies."
Separate. But equal?
Suppose there's a very dangerous mission, which army will be sent?
Do you think it's possible to have two separate armies without the slightest inequity between the two not becoming a major issue?
And do you think the Charedi world is unified enough to support one and only one army? In the comments here, we've seen one critic bash R' Asher Weiss. The Brisker RY condemned the Yated as being unfit for Torah True™ homes. One separate won't be enough, and one separate army would be one separate army too much.
Do you have a better solution? I don't see any other way the charedim would agree to serve.
Yes, separate but equal. Just like the educational system today is separate but equal.
You just want charedim to serve in the army, correct? You don't really want them to become chiloni, correct? But that will only work if they remain in a charedi environment. So yes, separate but equal.
I don't think the charedi world is unified at all. So there would be separate divisions for chasidim and mitnagdim, and each yeshiva would have its own company, brigade, platoon, etc.
If there would be a dangerous mission, the cabinet or the defense minister would decide which army is sent, just like now, when the Ramatkal decides which division goes to Gaza and which division goes to Lebanon.
Is this really that complicated? I know I don't know what I'm talking about, so I'm asking the experts: what do you think? Is this feasible?
If not, not. But then there's no way the charedim will serve until they become the majority and change the IDF to become a charedi army, which might not actually be that far off.
This need for separate divisions per hashkafa proves how backwards the galut mentality is. You'd never bee able to run a state. You only know how to live as a קהילה. Time to wake up from this dangerous attitude.
Why am I deranged? That's the only solution I see to charedim serving in an army. Either that or the charedim taking over the IDF entirely.
Otherwise they will never serve in the IDF.
Do we want to just bash them forever? Or do we want them to serve? I am proposing an actual proposal. I don't believe they will serve any other way, even if you take away their subsidies and put them in jail. (If you want to know why the charedim will never serve in the IDF, see www.vayakhel.com .)
Charedim have no interest in running an army, not that they could. And they would not "love" to serve. (Few people do absent some very strong patriotism. As Monty Python once put it, "People get *killed* out there! Proper killed!")
Charedim love to participate in programs in which they're in charge, and can then drop out whenever they want.
I was once in an Eichler's, I think in Borough Park, and they had a set of toy emergency vehicles, except the police car was Shomrim and the ambulance was Hatzolah and the car repair bus or tow truck or whatever was Yedidim. The fire truck was FDNY, though, because who can make and run their own fire department? (There are actually a number of volunteer fire units in New York City, but at the edges.)
And we have to wait idly by until you become the majority? What if chareidim take too long to adjust? We need to fund your institutions until you decide to wake up? And how will chilonim be treated in this army? What about the ones that don't want chareidi values in the army? You seem to have no plan. You're just wasting time pontificating while we citizens of Israel move the nation forwards just like a classic American Jew boasting of Israel's ingenuity from his reform temple on long Island.
You ask how chilonim will be treated in this army?
I have no idea, but I assume the same way charedim would be treated in the current chiloni army, if they would actually serve.
Probably forced to adjust to a new way of life.
I think the best solution is that there should be 2 armies. One for chilonim and one for charedim. Most charedim would serve in a charedi army. But charedim will never serve in the IDF.
So that's a problem. You'd give then the same hardship they gave you? You're just as bad as them them. You can't compromise. Why are you so certain that the army can't be pressured into accommodating the chareidim? You actually think there are higher odds of Israel allowing to separate armies? Under who's command?
Because the chareidim are not willing to put in the effort to prepare themselves or compromise. Same with chilonim. Not much difference. Your video links to peleg so I'm good.
Worthwhile reading. But you should summarize the contents- here's ChatGPT's summary:
A recent enlistee in the Israel Defense Forces, part of the Shlav Bet program for haredim and religious immigrants, shares his experience during basic training. He reflects on how the IDF has adapted to meet religious needs, offering gender separation, time for prayer, and kosher food, addressing concerns within the haredi community. His anecdotes reveal how commanders emphasize religious observance, showing that modern IDF units can accommodate religious soldiers without compromising their faith, marking a shift in how the army engages with religious recruits.
Right but some may support organizations which promote a dangerous two state agenda. Furthermore many chareidim do visit Israel or Learn here for a few years bringing in capital which boosts the economy.
I will unfortunately, very unfortunately, have to leave and stop supporting this blog. Definitely something broke in Slifkins brain. He became like those he mocks, advancing illogical thinking to support his own bias. The Charedi take on this wonderful event is entirely not contradictory. Meeting mortal goals is always dependent on God. When man fails it was because God had a reason for that failure. When he succeeds, the same. While we don't know with certainty, it certainly fits in to basic Jewish theology that that success or failure can be reward or punishment and/or demonstration of approval/disapproval of our behavior. Charedim are consistent in that belief, despite gaslight attempt of Slifkin to paint it otherwise. And if Slifkin denies that God is the ultimate Source of success and failure then he has truly left authentic Torah doctrine.
However, the far greater problem is that EVERYTHING now comes back to the same topic. It's definitely a sign of severe OCD or PTSD. It's not a mentally healthy place to be. It also demonstrates his own lack of trust in Hashem. If he believes the only waybto success is if the Charedim join the military then he's a fool. Even if he's entirely correct that it is critical AND that Charedim are terrible for not joining Hashem has more than enough ways to bring victory - like allowing a well planned, super smart plan of blowing up beepers go off without a hitch. That certainly is never a guarantee. So, kol hakovod to those in the military for thinking and planning such a great plan. Thank you Hashem for allowing someone or group to even conceive of such and idea AND to allow it to come to fruition.
And with that I make my exit from these boards. I was hoping for unique and exotic Torah thinking but ended up listening to a broken record using typical irrational arguments to push a highly bias opinion ad nauseum. Get well soon. I wish you all the best.
Good by and enjoy your free time - While you are at it take all the other ir-rational people with you. Especially seek out those that have nothing to contribute and just check in to demean, or do a bit of name calling, or cursing.
We thank you for that - as it will make this site a bit better.
It's a slogan. The other day I commented that certain expressions are appropriated beyond their true meaning. On the left it's כבוד הבריות and תיקון עולם.
As I've noted in the past, this is the expression that R. Jonathan Rosenblum trotted out after the Gaza expulsion to besmirch armed settlers. (Never mind that those Jews acknowledge Who provided them the power to protect themselves.) Because it's better to walk around unarmed and confidently claim "it's my learning that protects us!" - which is just "Kochi v’otzem yadi!” in another context.
Do you really feel that such sentiment is representative of most chareidim? I'm curious what you would be basing that on. I don't think I know anyone personally who has expressed such a vile attitude.
Not quite those words but a fanatical rosh kollel around these parts told his cultees 'the secular state caused this mess, they need to sort it out - why should the chareidim care one iota or help them clear up the mess they caused".
What is the sentiments (or my accurately sentiments) that you can testify too? What has been the attitude towards the army, government and wider Jewish society.
Note that Nachum responded to citation of RJR's nasty hit piece in the JO after the Gaza expulsion. It was must certainly "We told you so!" piece- even though UTJ played its little role in that tragedy.
"But it also revealed a mistaken belief that the IDF has enough soldiers to successfully defend Israel from all its enemies."
It did no such thing. This is entirely a figment of your imagination. The IDF has enough soldiers. Full stop. Heck, they've had to deal with some reservists who were collecting a check while double dipping a side job: https://www.calcalist.co.il/local_news/article/hk68ux6z0
What the ensuing months of warfare *have* shown is that relying on reservists to fight a drawn out war isn't sustainable economically. That isn't the product of charedim not enlisting. It's the product of building an entire military doctrine on winning wars within a few weeks. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/ask-your-local-charedi-rabbi/comment/54151133
I suppose it's no surprise that you would repeatedly slander charedim, given your belief that their unchecked growth poses a greater threat to Israel than Hamas does, https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/hamas-haredim-and-hayalim but it doesn't make it right.
"God has sent a clear message that this is not the case - that every community in Israel must do its part to defend everyone else. "
Uh, oh. Okay. Thanks for telling us.
There's nothing like an theocratic 'rationalist' with hallucinatory revelations about the meaning of it all to really drive the Lord's message home. By the way, has He weighed in on to say Israeli arabs have to serve too? Or are they a security risk? If the latter, what's the divine message there? https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/joy-amidst-pain/comment/67824066
You shouldn't say insulting things and then get annoyed when I respond in kind. Especially when all you have to offer is empty handwaving away of inconvenient facts.
I am an Israeli employment lawyer. I know what that article is talking about far, far more than you do. (Which is not at all.)
If you want me to explain it, you'll have to pay my standard rates, and I don't come cheap. :-) (Obviously most of it doesn't come down to me, but that's fair.)
"If you want me to explain it, you'll have to pay my standard rates,"
LOL. You'd first need to say something worthwhile to get me to bite. That's how American advertising works. You can't offer idiotic hottakes and then expect me to pay for more. It would be like paying for a yearly subscription to get kupat ha'ir flyers delivered to my lawn.
Yeah, yeah. You think you know everything when you know nothing. You're behind help. Why not scroll through old posts and find something I said in one of them that sooths your ignorance.
None of those links suggest that the "belief that the IDF has enough soldiers to successfully defend Israel from all its enemies" is a " a figment of... imagination"
" Israeli arabs have to serve too?"
A crackpot notion. You don't believe in it. So why bring it up.
"None of those links suggest that the "belief that the IDF has enough soldiers to successfully defend Israel from all its enemies" is a " a figment of... imagination""
Aside from mangling the quote, you're ignoring the calcalist article. And Dr Slifkin made a claim about what Oct 7th showed. To borrow one of your pet phrases, 'try not to lose the plot.'
"A crackpot notion. You don't believe in it. So why bring it up."
Because it's relevant to the blog host's obsession with drafting charedim. I've explained that many times in the past. Not going to rehash. See links above. Or don't.
That article does not say that there's enough soldiers. Please cite the sentence that states that. Or maybe, you tortured the inference out of the text.
"Because it's relevant..."
The nutty concept of drafting Arabs is not relevant. It's stupid and you don't believe it either.
ל"כלכליסט" הגיע מידע על מקרים שבהם מפקדים ביקשו לשחרר חיילים ששירותם הוארך, וזאת מפני שבפועל הם כבר לא משרתים כלוחמים ובחלק מהמקרים משמשים כעובדי רס"ר או עובדי מפקדה עודפים. "בסדיר שיישב בחדר, אבל מה יש לי לעשות איתו במילואים?", כתב אחד מהם.
"The nutty concept of drafting Arabs is not relevant. It's stupid and you don't believe it either."
You're going to have to try to find the plot which you lost. I can't do it for you.
Shaul, evidently you are not familiar with the many, many reservists who have been fighting for many, many months without a break. In fact I'm guessing you don't even live in Israel.
"Shaul, evidently you are not familiar with the many, many reservists who have been fighting for many, many months without a break."
Of course I am. I've explained the reason why that is multiple times. You just don't want to hear it because it would interfere with your hysterical claims about how charedim are the biggest danger the state faces etc etc etc ad nauseam.
"In fact I'm guessing you don't even live in Israel."
That citation does not state that there's enough soldiers. In fact, if you're going to torture out an inference, why not using more humane methods?
He says these reservists were dismissed because they were not serving in combat roles.
What can be inferred from this?
Your tortured inference: The army doesn't need more soldiers in combat roles.
A natural inference: Had they been serving in combat roles, they would not have been dismissed. It would also follow that these reservists are unfit for combat. Otherwise the מפקדים would have requested to move these reservists into combat rather keep them as jobnicks, coolies and desk jockies.
Now you can kvetch and do the pilpul. But the very fact that you'd have to go through such lengths is sufficient to refute your extreme insistence than anyone who disagrees with you is suffering from hallucinations. A more sober claim would be to suggest that the person is missing out on some subtleties. You didn't have to claim that the concept is a "figment of imagination". You could have said miscalculation.
A three front war in Gaza, Lebanon and the איו''ש would stretch the IDF capabilities and manpower beyond breaking limit. No-one, whatever community identify with would be safe.
So keep lying to yourself, but this is the kind of complacent attitude that led to the Yom Hakipourim and the Oct 7th catastrophes.
The joyous celebration in the Jewish community is so inappropriate when viewed in the context of the gruesome and videos showing up in my feed. People who are careful to pixilate photos and videos of injured Israelis are sharing unedited footage of Hezbollah terrorists. Even Hezbollah terrorists are created in the image of G-d. How can it be appropriate to celebrate in such an insensitive way?
Hard to understand your logic.. The Israelis were victims, Hezbollah are terrorist. It is like arguing, since we are careful when showing concentration camp atrocities, we also should not show Nazis soldiers laying next to their burnt out tank .
Or just be happy. That's allowed. The "innocents" have screaming mobs around the world to worry about them.
On V-E Day Churchill said "We may allow ourselves a brief period of rejoicing". (Brief, because Japan still had to be defeated.) Some Jews won't even allow themselves that, out of some sick masochism and misplaced "morality."
How interesting that they are the same ones screaming for a "ceasefire." It's kind of telling.
An old Dennis the Menace cartoon: He and his friend Joey are watching TV. His mother is not happy. "But it's *educational* TV, Mom!...It teaches you not to mess with roadrunners."
And I just learned that roadrunners can fly. Well then.
You wrote: Interestingly, though, I saw a video of charedi draft-dodgers happily watching the missiles being shot down instead of learning Torah.
I am not sure what you are driving at here. Do you think that chareidim believe that the protection Torah learning affords is like a force field, in effect only at the moments that they are studying Torah? That Israel is protected less between 1:30-3:00 in the afternoon, and in the middle of the night, because fewer people are learning then?
Do you also think that since eating vegetables makes one healthier, a person in the process of eating a salad is healthier than a person who ate a salad an hour beforehand?
They believe that there is value in being dedicated full time to Torah study, and that such Torah study is protective. That obviously does not mean studying Torah literally every second of the day. But taking out months at a time for army service does not meet that criteria. To continue the metaphor, a dietician would not recommend eating vegetables for 9 months, then not eating them for 6 months, then eating them again for 6 months.
Bottom line.. if Torah's protection is analogous to that of the army then there should always be people on duty learning be it night and be it Bein Hazmanim.
If rather it is a preferred lifestyle like eating vegetables , then it is reasonable to ask how much and when, and unreasonable to demand that such a lifestyle exempt people from civil responsibility.
I do not understand what you are trying to say. Do you mean that "full-time" does not mean literally every second? Congratulations, Captian Obvious. News flash: A "stay-at-home mom" is allowed to leave her house, too.
A clever attack, but I wonder what was achieved. Wouldn't you want to save something completely unexpected like this for some crucial moment? Now the trick is known. Seems kind of foolish to me.
Why can't we just celebrate this ingenious attack andnminor victory without always focusing on the chareidim?
Because he believes that the issue of Charedim not serving is of great importance. If this focus doesn't resonate with you, don't follow the blog
There's a time and place, man
@ Jerry,
What a better place than here where many folks who are wedded to Chareidism are offered rational argumentations by a notable Torah scholar and PhD to disabuse them of their unrestrained conviction that certain protected Yidden are exempt from taking up arms to defend their land from a savage foe?
And no better time than the present.
The time and place the author of this blog chooses, for instance. I would agree if a similar blog was written immediately after October 7th, but yesterday was a small victory.
I agree with him generally, but this is overdoing it
Thou shalt not hold a grudge
It's so sad:(
Actually, I think it's infinitely more sad that hundreds of thousands of charedim are refusing to alleviate the burden of the millions of people in Israeli families that are suffering from the war. But I guess that's just me.
I agree that's a problem and you're clearly obsessed over this problem, but when *everything* is this problem you lose your effectiveness
Chareidim seem to occupy a large portion of your mind. This begs the pressing question - do you grant them kollel rent subsidies? :-)
Every taxpaying Israeli- and every Israeli pays taxes- funds them up the wazoo.
He would take cash if they had it, instead he's forced to take their s'char
Its sad that we continue to miss the boat. Most Charedim would love to serve in the army, if it was a completely charedi army. (See vayakhel.com for details.)
As soon as the charedim are the majority, the IDF will become a charedi army and the charedim will serve en masse. Until that happens, the charedim will not serve, unless a separate charedi-run army is established.
Again, see vayakhel.com for the real reason charedim won't serve in the IDF. Anything else is bluff.
And the reasons expressed at vayakhel.com are actually very rational.
As others have pointed out before, promoting your website here is irritating for everyone. And linking to it three times?!
The worst part of the story is he advocates for a paramilitary organisation run by Charedim. I have been in the middle of their demonstrations in front of recruitment centres and even got a hit (that wasn't directed at me, but still hurts). It would be insane to give these people weapons, seeing their regard for the rest of Israelis.
But you still want them to serve? So you do want to give them weapons or you don't want to give them weapons?
I'm not promoting a website. I'm promoting the video because it describes in great detail why the charedim will never serve in the IDF. Anyone who claims that charedim don't serve because of Torah is barking up the wrong tree and will never find a solution to the problem.
But if we all watch this video and understand the true reason the charedim will never serve in the IDF, we as a society can come together and find a real solution to the problem.
Personally I think the solution is to create 2 separate armies. One for the chilonim and one for the charedim. The charedi army should have charedi generals and only charedim can enter the army bases. This will ensure that the charedi soldiers have a 100% charedi environment like they have now in their yeshivos.
This will solve the problem, and the charedim will join the charedi army en masse.
Anyone telling you otherwise is not being honest with you.
But if you think I'm promoting a website, no problem. There's nothing on the website except the video. Just watch the video and you will be enlightened to the true cause of the current crisis, and then we can all figure out a good solution together.
I challenge you to honestly find real solutions to a very real problem, instead of just bashing everyone.
"Personally I think the solution is to create 2 separate armies."
Separate. But equal?
Suppose there's a very dangerous mission, which army will be sent?
Do you think it's possible to have two separate armies without the slightest inequity between the two not becoming a major issue?
And do you think the Charedi world is unified enough to support one and only one army? In the comments here, we've seen one critic bash R' Asher Weiss. The Brisker RY condemned the Yated as being unfit for Torah True™ homes. One separate won't be enough, and one separate army would be one separate army too much.
Do you have a better solution? I don't see any other way the charedim would agree to serve.
Yes, separate but equal. Just like the educational system today is separate but equal.
You just want charedim to serve in the army, correct? You don't really want them to become chiloni, correct? But that will only work if they remain in a charedi environment. So yes, separate but equal.
I don't think the charedi world is unified at all. So there would be separate divisions for chasidim and mitnagdim, and each yeshiva would have its own company, brigade, platoon, etc.
If there would be a dangerous mission, the cabinet or the defense minister would decide which army is sent, just like now, when the Ramatkal decides which division goes to Gaza and which division goes to Lebanon.
Is this really that complicated? I know I don't know what I'm talking about, so I'm asking the experts: what do you think? Is this feasible?
If not, not. But then there's no way the charedim will serve until they become the majority and change the IDF to become a charedi army, which might not actually be that far off.
This need for separate divisions per hashkafa proves how backwards the galut mentality is. You'd never bee able to run a state. You only know how to live as a קהילה. Time to wake up from this dangerous attitude.
So that's one army.
You haven't really thought this through, have you?
"Do you have a better solution?"
In other words, you acknowledge that your solution has flaws.
Two armies? Are you deranged?
Also, "chilonim and charedim"? Do you have any idea that 50% of the Jews in this country are neither? Are you ignorant *and* mad?
Why am I deranged? That's the only solution I see to charedim serving in an army. Either that or the charedim taking over the IDF entirely.
Otherwise they will never serve in the IDF.
Do we want to just bash them forever? Or do we want them to serve? I am proposing an actual proposal. I don't believe they will serve any other way, even if you take away their subsidies and put them in jail. (If you want to know why the charedim will never serve in the IDF, see www.vayakhel.com .)
Enough with the stupid link already. We get it.
Charedim have no interest in running an army, not that they could. And they would not "love" to serve. (Few people do absent some very strong patriotism. As Monty Python once put it, "People get *killed* out there! Proper killed!")
You obviously haven't spend much time in Williamsburg.
Charedim love to participate in programs in which they're in charge, and can then drop out whenever they want.
I was once in an Eichler's, I think in Borough Park, and they had a set of toy emergency vehicles, except the police car was Shomrim and the ambulance was Hatzolah and the car repair bus or tow truck or whatever was Yedidim. The fire truck was FDNY, though, because who can make and run their own fire department? (There are actually a number of volunteer fire units in New York City, but at the edges.)
Kiryas yoel in Monroe has their own fire department called מצילי אש
And we have to wait idly by until you become the majority? What if chareidim take too long to adjust? We need to fund your institutions until you decide to wake up? And how will chilonim be treated in this army? What about the ones that don't want chareidi values in the army? You seem to have no plan. You're just wasting time pontificating while we citizens of Israel move the nation forwards just like a classic American Jew boasting of Israel's ingenuity from his reform temple on long Island.
You ask how chilonim will be treated in this army?
I have no idea, but I assume the same way charedim would be treated in the current chiloni army, if they would actually serve.
Probably forced to adjust to a new way of life.
I think the best solution is that there should be 2 armies. One for chilonim and one for charedim. Most charedim would serve in a charedi army. But charedim will never serve in the IDF.
Two armies? Are you deranged?
Also, "chilonim and charedim"? Do you have any idea that 50% of the Jews in this country are neither? Are you ignorant *and* mad?
So that's a problem. You'd give then the same hardship they gave you? You're just as bad as them them. You can't compromise. Why are you so certain that the army can't be pressured into accommodating the chareidim? You actually think there are higher odds of Israel allowing to separate armies? Under who's command?
Ha, you agree that the chilonim give the charedim a hard time now? So why would you be upset that the charedim don't want to serve?
Regarding compromise, watch the video at www.vayakhel.com to understand why its not practical to compromise.
Because the chareidim are not willing to put in the effort to prepare themselves or compromise. Same with chilonim. Not much difference. Your video links to peleg so I'm good.
First-person experience of how charedim are treated in the current chiloni army - https://chaimgoldberg.substack.com/p/shlav-bet-a-charedi-friendly-army and https://chaimgoldberg.substack.com/p/shlav-bet-part-ii
Worthwhile reading. But you should summarize the contents- here's ChatGPT's summary:
A recent enlistee in the Israel Defense Forces, part of the Shlav Bet program for haredim and religious immigrants, shares his experience during basic training. He reflects on how the IDF has adapted to meet religious needs, offering gender separation, time for prayer, and kosher food, addressing concerns within the haredi community. His anecdotes reveal how commanders emphasize religious observance, showing that modern IDF units can accommodate religious soldiers without compromising their faith, marking a shift in how the army engages with religious recruits.
At least the classic "boasting American Jew" is financially supporting Israel.
Right but some may support organizations which promote a dangerous two state agenda. Furthermore many chareidim do visit Israel or Learn here for a few years bringing in capital which boosts the economy.
I will unfortunately, very unfortunately, have to leave and stop supporting this blog. Definitely something broke in Slifkins brain. He became like those he mocks, advancing illogical thinking to support his own bias. The Charedi take on this wonderful event is entirely not contradictory. Meeting mortal goals is always dependent on God. When man fails it was because God had a reason for that failure. When he succeeds, the same. While we don't know with certainty, it certainly fits in to basic Jewish theology that that success or failure can be reward or punishment and/or demonstration of approval/disapproval of our behavior. Charedim are consistent in that belief, despite gaslight attempt of Slifkin to paint it otherwise. And if Slifkin denies that God is the ultimate Source of success and failure then he has truly left authentic Torah doctrine.
However, the far greater problem is that EVERYTHING now comes back to the same topic. It's definitely a sign of severe OCD or PTSD. It's not a mentally healthy place to be. It also demonstrates his own lack of trust in Hashem. If he believes the only waybto success is if the Charedim join the military then he's a fool. Even if he's entirely correct that it is critical AND that Charedim are terrible for not joining Hashem has more than enough ways to bring victory - like allowing a well planned, super smart plan of blowing up beepers go off without a hitch. That certainly is never a guarantee. So, kol hakovod to those in the military for thinking and planning such a great plan. Thank you Hashem for allowing someone or group to even conceive of such and idea AND to allow it to come to fruition.
And with that I make my exit from these boards. I was hoping for unique and exotic Torah thinking but ended up listening to a broken record using typical irrational arguments to push a highly bias opinion ad nauseum. Get well soon. I wish you all the best.
צאתכם לשלום
Good by and enjoy your free time - While you are at it take all the other ir-rational people with you. Especially seek out those that have nothing to contribute and just check in to demean, or do a bit of name calling, or cursing.
We thank you for that - as it will make this site a bit better.
"Kochi v’otzem yadi!”
It's a slogan. The other day I commented that certain expressions are appropriated beyond their true meaning. On the left it's כבוד הבריות and תיקון עולם.
As I've noted in the past, this is the expression that R. Jonathan Rosenblum trotted out after the Gaza expulsion to besmirch armed settlers. (Never mind that those Jews acknowledge Who provided them the power to protect themselves.) Because it's better to walk around unarmed and confidently claim "it's my learning that protects us!" - which is just "Kochi v’otzem yadi!” in another context.
Very well put.
The barely-suppressed gleefulness with which some charedim greeted the events of the past year (i.e., "We told you so!") is really, really gross.
Do you really feel that such sentiment is representative of most chareidim? I'm curious what you would be basing that on. I don't think I know anyone personally who has expressed such a vile attitude.
Representative? I don't know. Have people made it? Sure.
Not quite those words but a fanatical rosh kollel around these parts told his cultees 'the secular state caused this mess, they need to sort it out - why should the chareidim care one iota or help them clear up the mess they caused".
What is the sentiments (or my accurately sentiments) that you can testify too? What has been the attitude towards the army, government and wider Jewish society.
Note that Nachum responded to citation of RJR's nasty hit piece in the JO after the Gaza expulsion. It was must certainly "We told you so!" piece- even though UTJ played its little role in that tragedy.
Fun start, deranged ending
Great job manufacturing a post out of thin air against your charedi quasi-brethren. Good heavens...
"But it also revealed a mistaken belief that the IDF has enough soldiers to successfully defend Israel from all its enemies."
It did no such thing. This is entirely a figment of your imagination. The IDF has enough soldiers. Full stop. Heck, they've had to deal with some reservists who were collecting a check while double dipping a side job: https://www.calcalist.co.il/local_news/article/hk68ux6z0
What the ensuing months of warfare *have* shown is that relying on reservists to fight a drawn out war isn't sustainable economically. That isn't the product of charedim not enlisting. It's the product of building an entire military doctrine on winning wars within a few weeks. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/ask-your-local-charedi-rabbi/comment/54151133
I suppose it's no surprise that you would repeatedly slander charedim, given your belief that their unchecked growth poses a greater threat to Israel than Hamas does, https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/hamas-haredim-and-hayalim but it doesn't make it right.
"God has sent a clear message that this is not the case - that every community in Israel must do its part to defend everyone else. "
Uh, oh. Okay. Thanks for telling us.
There's nothing like an theocratic 'rationalist' with hallucinatory revelations about the meaning of it all to really drive the Lord's message home. By the way, has He weighed in on to say Israeli arabs have to serve too? Or are they a security risk? If the latter, what's the divine message there? https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/joy-amidst-pain/comment/67824066
You really shouldn't link to articles of whose import you have not a clue.
You shouldn't say insulting things and then get annoyed when I respond in kind. Especially when all you have to offer is empty handwaving away of inconvenient facts.
https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-dati-community-is-furious/comment/66650280
I am an Israeli employment lawyer. I know what that article is talking about far, far more than you do. (Which is not at all.)
If you want me to explain it, you'll have to pay my standard rates, and I don't come cheap. :-) (Obviously most of it doesn't come down to me, but that's fair.)
"If you want me to explain it, you'll have to pay my standard rates,"
LOL. You'd first need to say something worthwhile to get me to bite. That's how American advertising works. You can't offer idiotic hottakes and then expect me to pay for more. It would be like paying for a yearly subscription to get kupat ha'ir flyers delivered to my lawn.
Yeah, yeah. You think you know everything when you know nothing. You're behind help. Why not scroll through old posts and find something I said in one of them that sooths your ignorance.
"You're behind help."
The word is *beyond.*
"sooths your ignorance."
The word is *soothes*
None of those links suggest that the "belief that the IDF has enough soldiers to successfully defend Israel from all its enemies" is a " a figment of... imagination"
" Israeli arabs have to serve too?"
A crackpot notion. You don't believe in it. So why bring it up.
"None of those links suggest that the "belief that the IDF has enough soldiers to successfully defend Israel from all its enemies" is a " a figment of... imagination""
Aside from mangling the quote, you're ignoring the calcalist article. And Dr Slifkin made a claim about what Oct 7th showed. To borrow one of your pet phrases, 'try not to lose the plot.'
"A crackpot notion. You don't believe in it. So why bring it up."
Because it's relevant to the blog host's obsession with drafting charedim. I've explained that many times in the past. Not going to rehash. See links above. Or don't.
"you're ignoring the calcalist article."
That article does not say that there's enough soldiers. Please cite the sentence that states that. Or maybe, you tortured the inference out of the text.
"Because it's relevant..."
The nutty concept of drafting Arabs is not relevant. It's stupid and you don't believe it either.
"Please cite the sentence that states that."
You can start with this one:
ל"כלכליסט" הגיע מידע על מקרים שבהם מפקדים ביקשו לשחרר חיילים ששירותם הוארך, וזאת מפני שבפועל הם כבר לא משרתים כלוחמים ובחלק מהמקרים משמשים כעובדי רס"ר או עובדי מפקדה עודפים. "בסדיר שיישב בחדר, אבל מה יש לי לעשות איתו במילואים?", כתב אחד מהם.
"The nutty concept of drafting Arabs is not relevant. It's stupid and you don't believe it either."
You're going to have to try to find the plot which you lost. I can't do it for you.
Shaul, evidently you are not familiar with the many, many reservists who have been fighting for many, many months without a break. In fact I'm guessing you don't even live in Israel.
"Shaul, evidently you are not familiar with the many, many reservists who have been fighting for many, many months without a break."
Of course I am. I've explained the reason why that is multiple times. You just don't want to hear it because it would interfere with your hysterical claims about how charedim are the biggest danger the state faces etc etc etc ad nauseam.
"In fact I'm guessing you don't even live in Israel."
You don't need to guess. https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-dati-community-is-furious/comment/66695290
That citation does not state that there's enough soldiers. In fact, if you're going to torture out an inference, why not using more humane methods?
He says these reservists were dismissed because they were not serving in combat roles.
What can be inferred from this?
Your tortured inference: The army doesn't need more soldiers in combat roles.
A natural inference: Had they been serving in combat roles, they would not have been dismissed. It would also follow that these reservists are unfit for combat. Otherwise the מפקדים would have requested to move these reservists into combat rather keep them as jobnicks, coolies and desk jockies.
Now you can kvetch and do the pilpul. But the very fact that you'd have to go through such lengths is sufficient to refute your extreme insistence than anyone who disagrees with you is suffering from hallucinations. A more sober claim would be to suggest that the person is missing out on some subtleties. You didn't have to claim that the concept is a "figment of imagination". You could have said miscalculation.
"Now you can kvetch and do the pilpul."
Ironic that this sentence is embedded in much kvetching and pilpul.
A three front war in Gaza, Lebanon and the איו''ש would stretch the IDF capabilities and manpower beyond breaking limit. No-one, whatever community identify with would be safe.
So keep lying to yourself, but this is the kind of complacent attitude that led to the Yom Hakipourim and the Oct 7th catastrophes.
You're just making stuff up. And not responding to anything I actually said.
The joyous celebration in the Jewish community is so inappropriate when viewed in the context of the gruesome and videos showing up in my feed. People who are careful to pixilate photos and videos of injured Israelis are sharing unedited footage of Hezbollah terrorists. Even Hezbollah terrorists are created in the image of G-d. How can it be appropriate to celebrate in such an insensitive way?
Hard to understand your logic.. The Israelis were victims, Hezbollah are terrorist. It is like arguing, since we are careful when showing concentration camp atrocities, we also should not show Nazis soldiers laying next to their burnt out tank .
Think at what you are comparing!
Just like we recite אז ישיר.
And read Megillat Esther
The only way to look at his is with grim satisfaction. And regret that some innocents were also affected.
Or just be happy. That's allowed. The "innocents" have screaming mobs around the world to worry about them.
On V-E Day Churchill said "We may allow ourselves a brief period of rejoicing". (Brief, because Japan still had to be defeated.) Some Jews won't even allow themselves that, out of some sick masochism and misplaced "morality."
How interesting that they are the same ones screaming for a "ceasefire." It's kind of telling.
One of my greatest shocks as an adult was when I learned that real life coyotes can run much faster than real life roadrunners.
An old Dennis the Menace cartoon: He and his friend Joey are watching TV. His mother is not happy. "But it's *educational* TV, Mom!...It teaches you not to mess with roadrunners."
And I just learned that roadrunners can fly. Well then.
It's not a mystery at all. This guy explained how to do it over 10 years ago!
https://av.tib.eu/media/40546
Now they're saying it was more likely tampering in the supply chain. Either way no big "mystery".
Great. Shall we keep it a mystery for awhile anyway
HizBallOff
"I wonder if our charedi quasi-brethren will be pointing to this as a divine miracle?" - Yep
https://www.israelhayom.co.il/judaism/article/16463526
Thanks for the link!
Those of you with second unfiltered smartphones - You have been warned.
You wrote: Interestingly, though, I saw a video of charedi draft-dodgers happily watching the missiles being shot down instead of learning Torah.
I am not sure what you are driving at here. Do you think that chareidim believe that the protection Torah learning affords is like a force field, in effect only at the moments that they are studying Torah? That Israel is protected less between 1:30-3:00 in the afternoon, and in the middle of the night, because fewer people are learning then?
Do you also think that since eating vegetables makes one healthier, a person in the process of eating a salad is healthier than a person who ate a salad an hour beforehand?
Soldiers certainly protect more when they are on duty than when they are asleep.
The Chareidi argument to the extent that I understand it suggests an equivalence between learning and fighting.
If learning was like eating vegetables, then there is no justification for not combining both learning and fighting
They believe that there is value in being dedicated full time to Torah study, and that such Torah study is protective. That obviously does not mean studying Torah literally every second of the day. But taking out months at a time for army service does not meet that criteria. To continue the metaphor, a dietician would not recommend eating vegetables for 9 months, then not eating them for 6 months, then eating them again for 6 months.
Bottom line.. if Torah's protection is analogous to that of the army then there should always be people on duty learning be it night and be it Bein Hazmanim.
If rather it is a preferred lifestyle like eating vegetables , then it is reasonable to ask how much and when, and unreasonable to demand that such a lifestyle exempt people from civil responsibility.
Bottom line: It is not analogous to the army in the sense that you are expressing. As for your second point, okay.
So "full time" is not, in fact, full time.
I do not understand what you are trying to say. Do you mean that "full-time" does not mean literally every second? Congratulations, Captian Obvious. News flash: A "stay-at-home mom" is allowed to leave her house, too.
You know who's on full-time? A soldier.
Calvinball
Can you clarify?
“God has sent a clear message that this is not the case - that every community in Israel must do its part to defend everyone else.”
Maybe Hashem has also sent a clear message that when we focus on attacking each other we will be vulnerable to existentially threatening attack.
>> God has sent a clear message
>> that this is not the case.
That's interesting. One might have considered an assertion so worded to be inconsistent with Rationalist Judaism.
A clever attack, but I wonder what was achieved. Wouldn't you want to save something completely unexpected like this for some crucial moment? Now the trick is known. Seems kind of foolish to me.
What makes you think attack isn’t imminent?
Yes, I read that this was in anticipation of a planned IDF attack.