We were invited to a 7 Brachot yesterday and a L'Chaim for a couple that just got engaged tomorrow (2 different families). Both were cancelled as both Chatanim were called up.
The Mishna in Sotah has never been more relevant:
במלחמת מצוה, הכל יוצאין, אפילו חתן מחדרו וכלה מחפתה
Please keep writing. Please. Today many boys/men in my neighborhood were called up again. In the past, our Torani community was willing to tolerate the Charedi lifestyle as a "live and let live" situation. But all that has changed. What I'm hearing from the mothers and fathers in my neighborhood is enormous anger and frustration, and they have started being very vocal about it- which is a sea change. Patience and tolerance are absolutely gone. And people are saying the quiet part out loud now, because they can't hold themselves back anymore.
So say the quiet part out loud here. Make it be known that any Charedi person who chooses not to serve, who chooses to not find a community or Rav that will help move them in a direction of joining Am Yisrael in this historical fight for its survival is committing a grave act of Chilul Hashem. And yes- there will one day soon likely be a time of reckoning before your fellow Jews, before your angry (but dedicated) neighbors, and before God.
Oh do tell what the reckoning will be? You going to kill us? Hurt us? Yell and scream? Frankly do as you please we seriously couldn't care less. You have given no thought that maybe we think and prioritize differently than you. You went straight to hate. I dont need you to tolerate me or like me or think about me at all. We will continue to serve Hashem the way we believe is right no matter if you hate it. So be it. You want us to be enemies that is totally your decision. I have no ill will to you. What you decide in response says more about you than anything else.
I do not see any hate- I only see disgust and disapointment that those who think themselves better but in fact are far worse on the common scale that those who endanger and sacrifice themselves for others are better people than those who don't.. (Sadly in case you ask - I am in the latter category)
I would also protest at the repeated venom against and personal abuse of R' N Slivkin by some people who seem to hold charedi views very different from his. This is completely uncalled for and is beyond the civilised discourse that ordinary people including many non-religious Jews, non-Jews and true Bnei Torah present.
Rabbi Slifkin has written horrific thigs about Chareidim for months upon months. If you camt see how many of his posts are well beyond disagreement and criticism i camt help you. The fact that there are posters here on both the pro and anti Chareidi sides who say horrible disgusting things is bad but irrelevant to the conversation
Who said that..... No one. However Chareidim believe that's not the lechatchila way of doing things. Disagree? Thats fine no issue we can disagree. Calls for hate and veiled threats of violence are far from the overton window
"Who said that..... No one. However Chareidim believe that's not the lechatchila way of doing things."
Lechatchila? And בדיעבד is fine? Where did you get the notion that Charedi policy is that there's a legitimate, if בדיעבד way that " being a תלמיד חכם and being a soldier is mutually" compatible? Which of the following slogans teaches you that:
Again that want the question i answered. However if you want to discuss the various hashkafos in a civil way no problem. You want to disagree strongly absolutely no issue. Hate and threats have no place
I don't see any threats in Chaya's comment - I see mention of a day of reckoning, but that's kind of like Rosh Hashana, right? I assume you don't have an issue with the idea of a day of reckoning?
I love the way you all throw around the words "Chillul Hashem". Do you know what the words even mean? How in the world is not serving in the IDF a "Chillul Hashem"? How is learning Torah as opposed to a state's war a desecration of His Holy name?
Because millions of Israeli Jews completely shut themselves off to Torah because they see charedim not serving. Their logic is, if those closest to Hashem can exhibit such horrible behavior, then Hashem, r"l, isn't worth it.
You may not *like* this or think it's true or logical, but it is what it is.
When a person does something that others don't like, it is not an automatic Chilul Hashem. Even if they really really don't like it. Even if they threaten to punish Hashem for the actions of that person.
Chillul Hashem is rarely a reason to do, or not to do, something. If it's the right thing to do, it's not a Chillul Hashem. If it's the wrong thing to do, the wrongness should prevent a person from doing it.
Seeing as staying in Yeshivos instead of fighting is the correct thing to do, the threats from those who don't understand it are meaningless.
There are times that performing a Mitzva can indeed result in a Chillul Hashem. The Givonim tricked Yehoshua into making a treaty with them. The treaty had no validity since it was conducted under false pretenses and the B'nay Yisroel also had a Mitzvah obligation to wage war on the 7 Nations. Nevertheless, due to the Chillul Hashem it would've caused to beak the treaty, the B'nay Yisroel honored it and did not fulfill their original Mitzvah. That's how the mefarshim explain the incident. All angles need to be considered.
(It's also interesting how a true Navi of Hashem was able to be tricked into making a mistake that deprived the Jews the ability to carry out Hashem's instructions, whereas today nobody would consider the possibility that a "Gadol B'Torah" could be deceived about anything).
This issue is going to become more unavoidable after the war ends, may that be soon. Because our returning soldiers are going to be our Greatest Generation. They have proven that they can make decisions under pressure, they know what it means to be part of a team. They know where their priorities are, and they know that life is short.
When will you have spoken enough about this issue? When something dramatic changes (from the bottom up or the top down) and the Chardei community realizes they need to physically contribute to the defenses of the State of Israel.
When the Charedim develop shake, responsibility, and common human decency. A termite with a few dozen neurons could teach them moral philosophy because it defends its kin when they are attacked
Not sick of if it, but wishing your writing wouldn't be as combative. Change will not happen this way. Try writing anonymous "kol korays" or anonymous leaflets. That would be far more effective.
Strongly disagree. It’s far easier to dismiss an anonymous leaflet as one lone crank. The Haredi world’s insularity is the greatest threat to Torah today. Hamas and Hezbollah threaten our bodies. The Haredi behavior threatens our souls. Even those who do fight are being wracked with resentment and anger.
I have great empathy for those protesting for a ceasefire. But I wish there were mass protests in the Haredi communities and in front of the yeshivot. Let these voices ring loud and true.
Nobody in the Israeli chareidi world knows who Slifkin is. He's pumping out his endless tirades largely for his audience of either totally secular or mostly secularized jews. All Anglos of course. Israeli chilonim/datiim don't know who he is either. There's the occasional American yeshivish guy who reads it. He's much less than an anonymous crank.
Lol, I'm sure the entire Ponovezh kollel is talking about you at lunch. They don't even know who you are on Otzar Hachachmah forum, which has the some of the most online chareidim and datiim, and there being plenty of threads about giyus.
The comments section reflects the people who are interested in you, which is about 90% secular/OTD/barely religious Anglo jews like yourself, and 10% American yeshivish. Yes, your ranting and raving will surely have a great impact in convincing a bunch of accountants in Lakewood.
We have spent decades codfling, compromising, letting things slide and catering to them. They have done nothing but demand more and suck the life out of the productive Jewish communities. At some point they have to change or Israel will be destroyed.
Chilul HaShem: (lit. “profaning the Name [of G-d]”); an act that brings discredit or reflects badly on the Torah, Torah scholars, the Jewish religion, or the Jewish people
Using the Torah as an excuse to not fulfill your obligations as a member of society, causing many people in society wanting to have nothing to do with Torah, sounds exactly like a chilul hashem.
"Chilul HaShem: (lit. “profaning the Name [of G-d]”); an act that brings discredit or reflects badly on the Torah, Torah scholars, the Jewish religion, or the Jewish people"
When did the Name of G-d change to Torah, Torah scholars, Jewish religion, and the Jewish people? In any case, the only act here is learning Torah. How does that reflect badly on the Torah and Torah scholars?
Imagine someone who learns Torah when his wife is desperately begging him for help with their ten children and he refuses to ever do so. Maybe that will help you understand.
Many people would prefer to relegate these events to their personal "News" folder or "Tehillim" folder. But it is, as you say, "existential." Perhaps it's easier for us Americans to "move on" with our lives while all this goes on, but it ought to affect us no less.
When you have a specific complaint, "My son’s hesder yeshiva emptied out. My nephews were called up..." we don't mind you being extremely and perhaps rightfully frustrated. We take issue when you're ranting and finding the issue where it isn't or twisting topics to turn them into this complaint somehow or that there are just too many for no reason. I'm with you on this one and I hope everyone well! And יזכו למצוות!
No more money to charedim. Also, if they don't contribute in a substantial way to the war effort (Torah study dont count) they will pay substantial fines and face jail time.
You're sewing discord, Natan, at a time when achdus is desperately needed. There's a time for everything, right? Focus on the essence! Remember how crazy the machlokes was in the country rt before Oct 7? BH, most of those demonstrators cooled down once that war began. Bc when we're fighting external enemies, it's not time for the internal warfare.
Honestly, what do you expect to gain. Rt now we need to when this mammash war for the safety of our nation, not the ideological one of who's doing more or less. Especially as we approach the time for praying for "Aguda Ehad".
Wow, one would think you are only against Achdus since October 7, and before that, you had no problems with Chareidim. As if all those posts trashing Chareidim before October 7 were not sowing any discord at all, and you were a champion of Achdus...
I haven't followed all his posts in the past. And I'm not interested in becoming his ideological adversary. It just seems to me AT THIS MOMENT, when we're facing an enemy with real possibilities of causing mass destruction, that achdus with whomever wants the IDF's success is a no-brainer. Perhaps someone wants to take the author's passion to an extreme, and start haranguing Jews who dont make aliya, dont financially support us, etc, etc, ad naseum. It's a time for everyone to do the best the believe they can do to help the nation, and not judge the other.
It just seems to me AT THIS MOMENT, when we're facing an enemy with real possibilities of causing mass destruction, that defending our land and our people is a no-brainer.
I didnt realize this is a writing competition. I see it simply as informal banter between thoughtful, and sometimes busy ppl. But I'd be pleased to hear which of my words jar you.
Com'on. Use your good noggin to think this out. Achdus is not a black & white equation. I remember in the beginning of my transition from secular background to halachic Judaism, feeling that there just can't be achdus with Reform and Conservative Jews who undermine the Halachic integrity of Judaism. But of course, anyone who works in kiruv knows that RELATIVE achdus begins by focusing on what we share, just being Jews who care about doing something Jewish! Yidden fighting as partisans in WWII - would that be a time for haranguing a yid who insisted on praying instead of fighting at some pt??
Doesnt mean much TO WHOM? On what plane of existence? Are you now the assessor of whether Ovdei H' on pshat, drush, remez or sode is more important? Maybe its time to keep in mind what we pray in Slikhos: שומר ישראך - שומר שארית ישראל - אל יאבד ישראל האומרים שמע ישראל. Each type of av' H' has its place. We can argue later whether we each made the right choices.
Let me ask you. Is there a reason the yid in question could not both pray and fight to save his people? I think all the Rabbi is saying is one can do both. Why does it have to be one or the other? And why do you automatically go to the default of this way or that way. THAT is the problem. Let me ask you. At this point is there any question this is a milchemet mitzvah? In which case even the Rambam would say go fight. So again I say you are correct let’s not harangue the guy. Pray and then guard/fight for your people. If you fear war, drive an ambulance, be in the supply chain, work in intelligence etc. if you fear your neshama I ask what good is your twenty year yeshiva education if you can’t fit Torah into your daily life and why would you listen to rabbeim who didn’t set you up for life to deal with daily life as a G-d fearing Jew outside of the utopian walls of your daled Amot? So understand I also think you shouldn’t harangue the guy about it. Let him finish l’dovid Hashem Ori and hand him his machine gun
Are you trying to goad me, Harold, into debating the superiority of religious Zionist vs Hareidi philosophy? All I'm willing to contribute to this argument is that since we have no Moshe Rabbeinu or any other Torah authority which the vast majority of Jews accept, when major war breaks out, it's not the time for backbiting and marginalizing any Jewish community. Its the time for everyone to listen to their conscience and do the best they can, according to their spiritual guides, to strengthen the collective Jewish resolve to SUCCEED. I'm not talking about Neturei Karta or some other group that actively campaigns against our nation's right to defend ourselves! Nor loafers on the beach. But an entire community committed, as they understand it, to fulfill the Torah.
I am not trying to goad you at all. I was just hoping you would answer my question which you evaded quite righteously. I am also not trying to split the klal. On the contrary. I live my life with ahavat chinam. Of all Jews. They are my family. But sometimes in a family you have mature siblings and sometimes you have spoiled ones. It is not I who doesn’t acknowledge talmedai chachamim from a different derech. It is not I who fails to acknowledge the sacrifice of every Rosh Hayeshiva who has been to war and fought in battle for Hashem’s land. It is not I who disparages the lives of my fellow Jews and teaches my students they are “others”. I am 100% in favor of Torah study. I have supported those who engage in it. However, once again you went to the same default bc you dodged my question. Why is it my way or nihilism? Can’t there be another option? I will also point out it is not I or the Rabbi would claim to be the last stand for Torah as some of these same people have done in the past and the present. No one is attacking the Torah. C”V. As a matter of fact, it is clear that the position espoused above is biblical. Moshe rabbenu endorsed it “ וַיֹּאמֶר מֹשֶׁה, לִבְנֵי-גָד וְלִבְנֵי רְאוּבֵן: הַאַחֵיכֶם, יָבֹאוּ לַמִּלְחָמָה, וְאַתֶּם, תֵּשְׁבוּ פֹה.” So this position is clear. As did yehoshua after him as well as dovid hamelech. Others need to make the case how letting your brother go to war while you enjoy your in-laws succah is indeed biblical. So again I ask you my brother, why can’t it be both? Torah and a life of Torah which you have courageously come to, should make us better people who understand and feel our brothers burdens are also our own. And lastly I say what I have been saying for decades. Our moshiach is not here not because of those who don’t know about him, but because of those who do. We all must do better. But it has to start with emet.
P.S. "Our moshiach is not here not because of those who don’t know about him, but because of those who do." That's one arrogant claim. You really know?? And if you do, perhaps apply it also to yourself.
This is my last response to this important, but soon to be wheel-spinning thread. You said that Torah "should make us better people who understand and feel our brothers burdens are also our own." That's one tricky "should." If you believe it - LIVE it. But don't pontificate, and certainly don't deride, those who are not on that level with you. I get it that you guys have been churning on this issue for so long that it's hard to turn off the kina when achdus is the call of the hour. But that's precisely what it is right now, in my humble opinion. Stop browbeating the brother you're convinced is much less mature than you when you're all in the middle of an earth quake. Shana Tova, brother.
The charedi approach is not about "being committed to following the Torah, as they understand it." It's about being committed to preserving a certain way of life and not thinking too hard about how this should be affected by a war, because they can get away with offloading the response to others. I can assure you that if Bnei Brak was on the border and there weren't any soldiers to defend it, charedi hashkafa would be very different.
Don't you know? Achdus is only with people who are like 'me'.
People who don't keep mitzvos, but are zionists, are like 'me'. People who keep mitzvos, but aren't zionists, are not like 'me'. Because the true 'me' is the zionist, keeping mitzvos is just a peripheral part of 'my' identity.
When Zionism was invented, many farsighted Gedolim, probably most, were against it. Even when packaged in religion, they realized that it is an overreaching sense of identity that would supersede the religion. Others did not see things like that. We see the truth of the misnagdim now, when people want achdus with mumrim, but not with non-zionists.
Exactly as I wrote. People like 'me'. I am in achdus with everyone who thinks like 'me'. Those not like 'me' need not apply. No dissent allowed. Floggings will continue until morale improves. If they don't help the way 'I' want them to, then no achdus.
The answer is, there are many kinds of Zionisms and they were invented at different times. Our Zionism was invented in 2023...
...AM
" probably most"
Most didn't weigh in on the matter.
"many farsighted Gedolim"
Who didn't foresaw 2023...
...CE
" they realized that it is an overreaching sense of identity that would supersede the religion."
In other words, they never foresaw the phenomenon of post-Zionism. Nor did they foresee Jews like Tony "De-escalation" Blinken and Bernie "Hail Stalin" Sanders.
One of the tricks of those who have weak arguments is to half-quote and hint to things, in order that they can't be pinned down to anything.
For example, don't write which Chazon Ish we are talking about, so someone might think that the CI held there is 'no such thing as Mumrim'. Of course, no such CI exists, to anyone with a modicum of reading comprehenshion.
You say "Zionism"was invented. "Zionism" is too broad a term to claim "it was invented", and certainly not at a particular "when" in time. So you don't what you're talking about. You can't even get definitions right.
You have not done a survey of Gedolim in the past and determine how many opposed, supported, ignored, were equivocal or were silent about "Zionism" (whatever that means.) You just wrote "probably most", which was not an estimation, but a guess. Or wishful thinking.
As far your claim of "farsightedness", you have neither shown the prediction or realization. It's all in the realm of speculation. And just to be complete, I'll include a quote from Rav Amital which can easily be cribbed and applied to your speculations:
"One of the things that interferes with our understanding of Rav Kook is that people are afraid to state openly that there were things Rav Kook did not foresee. This in no way detracts from his greatness. We have to know that his Ma’amar Ha-Dor isn’t about our generation. A person who says that it refers to this generation is talking nonsense. Rav Kook believed that within fifty years, the Mashiach would come, and anyone who reads his books cannot understand him in any other way. But we didn’t merit that – and still Rav Kook remains the greatest philosopher since, perhaps, the Rambam."
I'd be careful not to call all Zionist-first Jews "misnagdim." There's a flow between all these ideological camps. That's why we're hopefully having these discussions.
I meant misnagdim to Zionism. Those who opposed Zionism at first have been proven right again. Zionism has the ability to become the overarching identity of people, even when they do follow mitzvos. That is its danger to Judaism.
The identity of a שומר תורה ומצוות. Everything is secondary to that, including which shittah we follow, and how we look.
Yes, some people believe that we are mechallel Shabbos by lighting a candle after shki'ah, others think you are mechallel Shabbos by doing so 40 minutes after shki'ah. But neither side hates each other or calls them mechallellei shabbos. Because we are all subservient to the same Torah.
That's always going to be, to some degree. I get it that Natan's camp believes the Hareidim are far too populous today to apply to them a "live and let live" ethic. He has the right to make that argument vociferously. I'm just saying not now.
By "live and let live", you seem to mean a perpetual situation of autonomy, protected and financed by others. As economist Herb Stein says, "Things that cannot continue forever, won't."
Rabbi Slifkin, could you offer an insight about the origins as to where and how the Chareidi community, with all of their Torah learning, whether b'iyun or b'kiyus, has become so corrupted and perverse in their thinking? How could intellectually honest immersion in Torah learning and a Torah outlook of life produce such results?
It's actually quite straightforward. An approach of isolationism against the threats of modernity was an understandable approach. The problem was that it couldn't adapt to (A) being a very large and growing community, and (B) external military threats that required combating. And so instead it corrupted its ideology to stay where it was.
Rabbi Slifkin, please, we are talking about the negation of basic human decency and fairness!! Their approach has become outrageous. There must be something much more corrupt and sinister beneath the surface.
I think it's more than that. Chazon Ish (Emunah Ubitachon 3:2) calls natural morality a "stumbling block" which is liable to lead people astray from the correct rulings of halacha. I imagine this outlook has pretty deep roots in contemporary charedi hashkafa.
Sinister? Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. Or in this case, a combination of ignorance, intransigence, self-interest, terror of change and lack of courage or vision as to how that change might be navigated before the typhoon hits land.
Perhaps you are correct with your other descriptions, but stupid they are not.
I am unable to explain what has happened to them, but I disagree with the claim Rabbi Slifkin often makes that they really don't believe what they say. No, they believe it. They have somehow transitioned to a new, twisted hashkafa, and because their world has becone very cult-like, nobody can question it. It's very disturbing.
The original quote I was referencing uses the word "stupidity". That' why I qualified it. Intelligent people can rationalize their own stupid behavior in very clever ways.
There is a website that was created to respond to much of what Natan likes to discuss on his blog. Some of it is light-hearted, but some of it is written in a more serious vein. There is a series of essays written by a reserve officer in the IDF who has been serving continuously since the outbreak of the current war. He addresses many aspects of what Natan is complaining about. I think that you might find reading those essays very helpful in understanding a more balanced perspective.
You can Google the website under irrationalmodoxism, it would take only a very few moments of reviewing their posts to find the specific ones that address the issues that are of interest to you.
Shulman, you are probably familiar with that website, but you might want to review some of those articles if Natan chooses to allow you to guest post on his blog. Although you seem quite knowledgeable, the experience of this particular person might be helpful as well.
I'm not sure whether that page is supposed to be satire, or to be taken seriously.
If satire, it's not very funny in my opinion, but each to his own.
If it is supposed to be taken literarily, as far as I can tell, the entire page is just a collection of personal insults against Rav Natan Slifkin, followed by a collection of agadot from the Talmud (which we don't normally use to posken Halacha), and they all seem to be implying that at the moment one is learning Torah, that individual is protected from Malach HaMavet (and there is a midrash that says that the Malach Hamavet had to create a distraction in order to claim the life of David HaMelech).
I didn't see a single Halachic source which hints that during a war, someone learning in Torah in a different location would magically be able to protect the entire nation.
I seriously hope that Charedi Gedolim are able to come up with a more coherent argument.
You people are so funny. You loudly demand a halachic source for hareidim, yet you have no halachic source for your contention that everybody must join the army and you don't even believe that yourself. The best you have is the story of Bnei Gad and Reuven- not halachic. And then when somebody shows you a list of Aggados that demonstrate clearly that Chazal believe Torah protects the entire nation, you dismiss it without reading them. You said before "I would love to read a coherent argument supporting the charedi approach" but this is belied by your behavior.
The halacha that everyone must serve in a מלחמת מצוה is one thing is not predicated on concept of protection. See the Chazon Ish. As such, the concept of "Torah protect" has no application to the halacha of מלחמת מצוה.
I'd be pleasantly surprised if R' Slifkin took you up on this offer. A big part of this blog is to show how bad chareidim are (leaving the judgment aside if that is a worthy cause or not). Posting something that cogently explains their position kinda goes against the grain of what he's trying to do so I don't see it happening. Hopefully I am wrong.
We were invited to a 7 Brachot yesterday and a L'Chaim for a couple that just got engaged tomorrow (2 different families). Both were cancelled as both Chatanim were called up.
The Mishna in Sotah has never been more relevant:
במלחמת מצוה, הכל יוצאין, אפילו חתן מחדרו וכלה מחפתה
Please keep writing. Please. Today many boys/men in my neighborhood were called up again. In the past, our Torani community was willing to tolerate the Charedi lifestyle as a "live and let live" situation. But all that has changed. What I'm hearing from the mothers and fathers in my neighborhood is enormous anger and frustration, and they have started being very vocal about it- which is a sea change. Patience and tolerance are absolutely gone. And people are saying the quiet part out loud now, because they can't hold themselves back anymore.
So say the quiet part out loud here. Make it be known that any Charedi person who chooses not to serve, who chooses to not find a community or Rav that will help move them in a direction of joining Am Yisrael in this historical fight for its survival is committing a grave act of Chilul Hashem. And yes- there will one day soon likely be a time of reckoning before your fellow Jews, before your angry (but dedicated) neighbors, and before God.
Oh do tell what the reckoning will be? You going to kill us? Hurt us? Yell and scream? Frankly do as you please we seriously couldn't care less. You have given no thought that maybe we think and prioritize differently than you. You went straight to hate. I dont need you to tolerate me or like me or think about me at all. We will continue to serve Hashem the way we believe is right no matter if you hate it. So be it. You want us to be enemies that is totally your decision. I have no ill will to you. What you decide in response says more about you than anything else.
I do not see any hate- I only see disgust and disapointment that those who think themselves better but in fact are far worse on the common scale that those who endanger and sacrifice themselves for others are better people than those who don't.. (Sadly in case you ask - I am in the latter category)
I would also protest at the repeated venom against and personal abuse of R' N Slivkin by some people who seem to hold charedi views very different from his. This is completely uncalled for and is beyond the civilised discourse that ordinary people including many non-religious Jews, non-Jews and true Bnei Torah present.
Rabbi Slifkin has written horrific thigs about Chareidim for months upon months. If you camt see how many of his posts are well beyond disagreement and criticism i camt help you. The fact that there are posters here on both the pro and anti Chareidi sides who say horrible disgusting things is bad but irrelevant to the conversation
The reckoning will be that they will cut off yeshiva funding and send draft notices. Oh wait...they did that already. They used up all their cards. Some of the commenters realize this, and are threatening random acts of violence against chareidim https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/what-should-trapped-charedim-do/comment/67125918
Because being a תלמיד חכם and being a soldier is mutually exclusive?
Who said that..... No one. However Chareidim believe that's not the lechatchila way of doing things. Disagree? Thats fine no issue we can disagree. Calls for hate and veiled threats of violence are far from the overton window
"Who said that..... No one. However Chareidim believe that's not the lechatchila way of doing things."
Lechatchila? And בדיעבד is fine? Where did you get the notion that Charedi policy is that there's a legitimate, if בדיעבד way that " being a תלמיד חכם and being a soldier is mutually" compatible? Which of the following slogans teaches you that:
נמות ולא נתגייס
"לא נתגייס גם באיומי אקדח"
נלך לכלא ולא לצבא
"גזירת הגיוס - אושוויץ לספרדים"
קנטוניסטים!
"We'll make ירידה!"
None of the above indicates a בדיעבד.
Israel is not exactly in a "lechatchila" situation right now....
Again that want the question i answered. However if you want to discuss the various hashkafos in a civil way no problem. You want to disagree strongly absolutely no issue. Hate and threats have no place
I don't see any threats in Chaya's comment - I see mention of a day of reckoning, but that's kind of like Rosh Hashana, right? I assume you don't have an issue with the idea of a day of reckoning?
I love the way you all throw around the words "Chillul Hashem". Do you know what the words even mean? How in the world is not serving in the IDF a "Chillul Hashem"? How is learning Torah as opposed to a state's war a desecration of His Holy name?
Because millions of Israeli Jews completely shut themselves off to Torah because they see charedim not serving. Their logic is, if those closest to Hashem can exhibit such horrible behavior, then Hashem, r"l, isn't worth it.
You may not *like* this or think it's true or logical, but it is what it is.
When a person does something that others don't like, it is not an automatic Chilul Hashem. Even if they really really don't like it. Even if they threaten to punish Hashem for the actions of that person.
Chillul Hashem is rarely a reason to do, or not to do, something. If it's the right thing to do, it's not a Chillul Hashem. If it's the wrong thing to do, the wrongness should prevent a person from doing it.
Seeing as staying in Yeshivos instead of fighting is the correct thing to do, the threats from those who don't understand it are meaningless.
How about all of the draft-age charedim who AREN'T in Yeshiva, yet are also not serving?
This is absolutely a disgrace to the Name and one of the greatest shames of Jews since Biblical times.
There are times that performing a Mitzva can indeed result in a Chillul Hashem. The Givonim tricked Yehoshua into making a treaty with them. The treaty had no validity since it was conducted under false pretenses and the B'nay Yisroel also had a Mitzvah obligation to wage war on the 7 Nations. Nevertheless, due to the Chillul Hashem it would've caused to beak the treaty, the B'nay Yisroel honored it and did not fulfill their original Mitzvah. That's how the mefarshim explain the incident. All angles need to be considered.
(It's also interesting how a true Navi of Hashem was able to be tricked into making a mistake that deprived the Jews the ability to carry out Hashem's instructions, whereas today nobody would consider the possibility that a "Gadol B'Torah" could be deceived about anything).
" state's war"
It's not a "state's war". It's a war against Jews.
This issue is going to become more unavoidable after the war ends, may that be soon. Because our returning soldiers are going to be our Greatest Generation. They have proven that they can make decisions under pressure, they know what it means to be part of a team. They know where their priorities are, and they know that life is short.
When will you have spoken enough about this issue? When something dramatic changes (from the bottom up or the top down) and the Chardei community realizes they need to physically contribute to the defenses of the State of Israel.
You realize that no one is forcing you to read it. That's always an option.
I think you may have misread Hava's comment.
When the Charedim develop shake, responsibility, and common human decency. A termite with a few dozen neurons could teach them moral philosophy because it defends its kin when they are attacked
Wishing you are your family hatzlacha in battle.
Not sick of if it, but wishing your writing wouldn't be as combative. Change will not happen this way. Try writing anonymous "kol korays" or anonymous leaflets. That would be far more effective.
Strongly disagree. It’s far easier to dismiss an anonymous leaflet as one lone crank. The Haredi world’s insularity is the greatest threat to Torah today. Hamas and Hezbollah threaten our bodies. The Haredi behavior threatens our souls. Even those who do fight are being wracked with resentment and anger.
I have great empathy for those protesting for a ceasefire. But I wish there were mass protests in the Haredi communities and in front of the yeshivot. Let these voices ring loud and true.
Nobody in the Israeli chareidi world knows who Slifkin is. He's pumping out his endless tirades largely for his audience of either totally secular or mostly secularized jews. All Anglos of course. Israeli chilonim/datiim don't know who he is either. There's the occasional American yeshivish guy who reads it. He's much less than an anonymous crank.
Lol, if you only knew who reads my posts.
Lol, I'm sure the entire Ponovezh kollel is talking about you at lunch. They don't even know who you are on Otzar Hachachmah forum, which has the some of the most online chareidim and datiim, and there being plenty of threads about giyus.
Oh, I was talking about American charedim. Israeli charedim don't know about me, and I'm happy to keep it that way.
The comments section reflects the people who are interested in you, which is about 90% secular/OTD/barely religious Anglo jews like yourself, and 10% American yeshivish. Yes, your ranting and raving will surely have a great impact in convincing a bunch of accountants in Lakewood.
American former Chareidi here. Big Slifkin fan!👍
Considering what happened in Beit Shemesh the other day.
Oh wait? When did the Ponovezh kollel/yeshiva stop throwing chumashim and shtenders at each other? Yeah, that’s what Hashem wants
You seem to have a quite an obsession with someone who is "less than an anonymous crank."
We have spent decades codfling, compromising, letting things slide and catering to them. They have done nothing but demand more and suck the life out of the productive Jewish communities. At some point they have to change or Israel will be destroyed.
שהשם ישמור כל חיילי צה״ל ועם י
שראל.
Definition of chilul hashem:
Chilul HaShem: (lit. “profaning the Name [of G-d]”); an act that brings discredit or reflects badly on the Torah, Torah scholars, the Jewish religion, or the Jewish people
Using the Torah as an excuse to not fulfill your obligations as a member of society, causing many people in society wanting to have nothing to do with Torah, sounds exactly like a chilul hashem.
"Chilul HaShem: (lit. “profaning the Name [of G-d]”); an act that brings discredit or reflects badly on the Torah, Torah scholars, the Jewish religion, or the Jewish people"
When did the Name of G-d change to Torah, Torah scholars, Jewish religion, and the Jewish people? In any case, the only act here is learning Torah. How does that reflect badly on the Torah and Torah scholars?
Imagine someone who learns Torah when his wife is desperately begging him for help with their ten children and he refuses to ever do so. Maybe that will help you understand.
Keep on writing about this Charedi desecration of G-d. Best of luck to you and the soldiers in your family.
Yasher kochacha, Rav Natan.
Many people would prefer to relegate these events to their personal "News" folder or "Tehillim" folder. But it is, as you say, "existential." Perhaps it's easier for us Americans to "move on" with our lives while all this goes on, but it ought to affect us no less.
Don’t stop. Please
When you have a specific complaint, "My son’s hesder yeshiva emptied out. My nephews were called up..." we don't mind you being extremely and perhaps rightfully frustrated. We take issue when you're ranting and finding the issue where it isn't or twisting topics to turn them into this complaint somehow or that there are just too many for no reason. I'm with you on this one and I hope everyone well! And יזכו למצוות!
What you don't realize is that it never really stopped. I wish you could read the posts on the "Parents of IDF soldiers" Facebook group.
That's an important comment which does help me understand where you're coming from.
No more money to charedim. Also, if they don't contribute in a substantial way to the war effort (Torah study dont count) they will pay substantial fines and face jail time.
Not sick of it. This is life and death important. Do you have any ideas of ways we can make our voices heard on this issue?
You're sewing discord, Natan, at a time when achdus is desperately needed. There's a time for everything, right? Focus on the essence! Remember how crazy the machlokes was in the country rt before Oct 7? BH, most of those demonstrators cooled down once that war began. Bc when we're fighting external enemies, it's not time for the internal warfare.
Honestly, what do you expect to gain. Rt now we need to when this mammash war for the safety of our nation, not the ideological one of who's doing more or less. Especially as we approach the time for praying for "Aguda Ehad".
There's no achdus when an entire huge community is not involved in the war.
Wow, one would think you are only against Achdus since October 7, and before that, you had no problems with Chareidim. As if all those posts trashing Chareidim before October 7 were not sowing any discord at all, and you were a champion of Achdus...
LOL
No, I've been criticizong charedi problems for years. I was responding to Yaacovs claim that now is a time for achdus.
By the way, do you think that your comments win anyone over?
Does anyone here?
Is that a q for me?
I haven't followed all his posts in the past. And I'm not interested in becoming his ideological adversary. It just seems to me AT THIS MOMENT, when we're facing an enemy with real possibilities of causing mass destruction, that achdus with whomever wants the IDF's success is a no-brainer. Perhaps someone wants to take the author's passion to an extreme, and start haranguing Jews who dont make aliya, dont financially support us, etc, etc, ad naseum. It's a time for everyone to do the best the believe they can do to help the nation, and not judge the other.
It just seems to me AT THIS MOMENT, when we're facing an enemy with real possibilities of causing mass destruction, that defending our land and our people is a no-brainer.
There I fixed it for you
Sloppy writing makes sloppy thinking even more obvious, Yaakov.
I didnt realize this is a writing competition. I see it simply as informal banter between thoughtful, and sometimes busy ppl. But I'd be pleased to hear which of my words jar you.
Com'on. Use your good noggin to think this out. Achdus is not a black & white equation. I remember in the beginning of my transition from secular background to halachic Judaism, feeling that there just can't be achdus with Reform and Conservative Jews who undermine the Halachic integrity of Judaism. But of course, anyone who works in kiruv knows that RELATIVE achdus begins by focusing on what we share, just being Jews who care about doing something Jewish! Yidden fighting as partisans in WWII - would that be a time for haranguing a yid who insisted on praying instead of fighting at some pt??
It doesn't mean much to care about doing something Jewish if you don't care about Jews.
Doesnt mean much TO WHOM? On what plane of existence? Are you now the assessor of whether Ovdei H' on pshat, drush, remez or sode is more important? Maybe its time to keep in mind what we pray in Slikhos: שומר ישראך - שומר שארית ישראל - אל יאבד ישראל האומרים שמע ישראל. Each type of av' H' has its place. We can argue later whether we each made the right choices.
Let me ask you. Is there a reason the yid in question could not both pray and fight to save his people? I think all the Rabbi is saying is one can do both. Why does it have to be one or the other? And why do you automatically go to the default of this way or that way. THAT is the problem. Let me ask you. At this point is there any question this is a milchemet mitzvah? In which case even the Rambam would say go fight. So again I say you are correct let’s not harangue the guy. Pray and then guard/fight for your people. If you fear war, drive an ambulance, be in the supply chain, work in intelligence etc. if you fear your neshama I ask what good is your twenty year yeshiva education if you can’t fit Torah into your daily life and why would you listen to rabbeim who didn’t set you up for life to deal with daily life as a G-d fearing Jew outside of the utopian walls of your daled Amot? So understand I also think you shouldn’t harangue the guy about it. Let him finish l’dovid Hashem Ori and hand him his machine gun
Are you trying to goad me, Harold, into debating the superiority of religious Zionist vs Hareidi philosophy? All I'm willing to contribute to this argument is that since we have no Moshe Rabbeinu or any other Torah authority which the vast majority of Jews accept, when major war breaks out, it's not the time for backbiting and marginalizing any Jewish community. Its the time for everyone to listen to their conscience and do the best they can, according to their spiritual guides, to strengthen the collective Jewish resolve to SUCCEED. I'm not talking about Neturei Karta or some other group that actively campaigns against our nation's right to defend ourselves! Nor loafers on the beach. But an entire community committed, as they understand it, to fulfill the Torah.
I am not trying to goad you at all. I was just hoping you would answer my question which you evaded quite righteously. I am also not trying to split the klal. On the contrary. I live my life with ahavat chinam. Of all Jews. They are my family. But sometimes in a family you have mature siblings and sometimes you have spoiled ones. It is not I who doesn’t acknowledge talmedai chachamim from a different derech. It is not I who fails to acknowledge the sacrifice of every Rosh Hayeshiva who has been to war and fought in battle for Hashem’s land. It is not I who disparages the lives of my fellow Jews and teaches my students they are “others”. I am 100% in favor of Torah study. I have supported those who engage in it. However, once again you went to the same default bc you dodged my question. Why is it my way or nihilism? Can’t there be another option? I will also point out it is not I or the Rabbi would claim to be the last stand for Torah as some of these same people have done in the past and the present. No one is attacking the Torah. C”V. As a matter of fact, it is clear that the position espoused above is biblical. Moshe rabbenu endorsed it “ וַיֹּאמֶר מֹשֶׁה, לִבְנֵי-גָד וְלִבְנֵי רְאוּבֵן: הַאַחֵיכֶם, יָבֹאוּ לַמִּלְחָמָה, וְאַתֶּם, תֵּשְׁבוּ פֹה.” So this position is clear. As did yehoshua after him as well as dovid hamelech. Others need to make the case how letting your brother go to war while you enjoy your in-laws succah is indeed biblical. So again I ask you my brother, why can’t it be both? Torah and a life of Torah which you have courageously come to, should make us better people who understand and feel our brothers burdens are also our own. And lastly I say what I have been saying for decades. Our moshiach is not here not because of those who don’t know about him, but because of those who do. We all must do better. But it has to start with emet.
P.S. "Our moshiach is not here not because of those who don’t know about him, but because of those who do." That's one arrogant claim. You really know?? And if you do, perhaps apply it also to yourself.
This is my last response to this important, but soon to be wheel-spinning thread. You said that Torah "should make us better people who understand and feel our brothers burdens are also our own." That's one tricky "should." If you believe it - LIVE it. But don't pontificate, and certainly don't deride, those who are not on that level with you. I get it that you guys have been churning on this issue for so long that it's hard to turn off the kina when achdus is the call of the hour. But that's precisely what it is right now, in my humble opinion. Stop browbeating the brother you're convinced is much less mature than you when you're all in the middle of an earth quake. Shana Tova, brother.
The charedi approach is not about "being committed to following the Torah, as they understand it." It's about being committed to preserving a certain way of life and not thinking too hard about how this should be affected by a war, because they can get away with offloading the response to others. I can assure you that if Bnei Brak was on the border and there weren't any soldiers to defend it, charedi hashkafa would be very different.
Yes. Yes it would be a time to harangue him.
Don't you know? Achdus is only with people who are like 'me'.
People who don't keep mitzvos, but are zionists, are like 'me'. People who keep mitzvos, but aren't zionists, are not like 'me'. Because the true 'me' is the zionist, keeping mitzvos is just a peripheral part of 'my' identity.
When Zionism was invented, many farsighted Gedolim, probably most, were against it. Even when packaged in religion, they realized that it is an overreaching sense of identity that would supersede the religion. Others did not see things like that. We see the truth of the misnagdim now, when people want achdus with mumrim, but not with non-zionists.
Good grief. Achdus means that when Hamas and Hezbollah are trying to kill us, we all help. עזרת ישראל מיד צר.
Exactly as I wrote. People like 'me'. I am in achdus with everyone who thinks like 'me'. Those not like 'me' need not apply. No dissent allowed. Floggings will continue until morale improves. If they don't help the way 'I' want them to, then no achdus.
If you want Hamas to win, I do not want to be in achdus with you.
"When Zionism was invented"
What is Zionism and when was it invented?
The answer is, there are many kinds of Zionisms and they were invented at different times. Our Zionism was invented in 2023...
...AM
" probably most"
Most didn't weigh in on the matter.
"many farsighted Gedolim"
Who didn't foresaw 2023...
...CE
" they realized that it is an overreaching sense of identity that would supersede the religion."
In other words, they never foresaw the phenomenon of post-Zionism. Nor did they foresee Jews like Tony "De-escalation" Blinken and Bernie "Hail Stalin" Sanders.
"mumrim"
No such thing. See the Chazon Ish.
One of the tricks of those who have weak arguments is to half-quote and hint to things, in order that they can't be pinned down to anything.
For example, don't write which Chazon Ish we are talking about, so someone might think that the CI held there is 'no such thing as Mumrim'. Of course, no such CI exists, to anyone with a modicum of reading comprehenshion.
If they are weak, tell us why.
You say "Zionism"was invented. "Zionism" is too broad a term to claim "it was invented", and certainly not at a particular "when" in time. So you don't what you're talking about. You can't even get definitions right.
You have not done a survey of Gedolim in the past and determine how many opposed, supported, ignored, were equivocal or were silent about "Zionism" (whatever that means.) You just wrote "probably most", which was not an estimation, but a guess. Or wishful thinking.
As far your claim of "farsightedness", you have neither shown the prediction or realization. It's all in the realm of speculation. And just to be complete, I'll include a quote from Rav Amital which can easily be cribbed and applied to your speculations:
"One of the things that interferes with our understanding of Rav Kook is that people are afraid to state openly that there were things Rav Kook did not foresee. This in no way detracts from his greatness. We have to know that his Ma’amar Ha-Dor isn’t about our generation. A person who says that it refers to this generation is talking nonsense. Rav Kook believed that within fifty years, the Mashiach would come, and anyone who reads his books cannot understand him in any other way. But we didn’t merit that – and still Rav Kook remains the greatest philosopher since, perhaps, the Rambam."
The Chazon Ish is here:
https://he.m.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%97%D7%96%D7%95%D7%9F_%D7%90%D7%99%D7%A9/%D7%99%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%94_%D7%93%D7%A2%D7%94/%D7%91
As I said, no such Chazon Ish
I'd be careful not to call all Zionist-first Jews "misnagdim." There's a flow between all these ideological camps. That's why we're hopefully having these discussions.
I have no idea what 'zionist-first Jews' are.
I meant misnagdim to Zionism. Those who opposed Zionism at first have been proven right again. Zionism has the ability to become the overarching identity of people, even when they do follow mitzvos. That is its danger to Judaism.
" Zionism has the ability to become the overarching identity of people, even when they do follow mitzvos."
What overarching identity do you prefer? I mean, when you follow מצות. Extra credit for considering מצות like ישוב הארץ and מלחמת מצוה.
The identity of a שומר תורה ומצוות. Everything is secondary to that, including which shittah we follow, and how we look.
Yes, some people believe that we are mechallel Shabbos by lighting a candle after shki'ah, others think you are mechallel Shabbos by doing so 40 minutes after shki'ah. But neither side hates each other or calls them mechallellei shabbos. Because we are all subservient to the same Torah.
Army service should be no different.
gocha. It comes out the same.
Problem is, only some of us are fighting the external enemies
That's always going to be, to some degree. I get it that Natan's camp believes the Hareidim are far too populous today to apply to them a "live and let live" ethic. He has the right to make that argument vociferously. I'm just saying not now.
By "live and let live", you seem to mean a perpetual situation of autonomy, protected and financed by others. As economist Herb Stein says, "Things that cannot continue forever, won't."
Rabbi Slifkin, could you offer an insight about the origins as to where and how the Chareidi community, with all of their Torah learning, whether b'iyun or b'kiyus, has become so corrupted and perverse in their thinking? How could intellectually honest immersion in Torah learning and a Torah outlook of life produce such results?
It's actually quite straightforward. An approach of isolationism against the threats of modernity was an understandable approach. The problem was that it couldn't adapt to (A) being a very large and growing community, and (B) external military threats that required combating. And so instead it corrupted its ideology to stay where it was.
Even more simply: No one wants to die. Give charedim an out, they take it, and they ain't letting go.
Rabbi Slifkin, please, we are talking about the negation of basic human decency and fairness!! Their approach has become outrageous. There must be something much more corrupt and sinister beneath the surface.
Honestly, I think it's just the appalling consequences of what happens when an ideology is based upon isolationism and refusal to change.
and because we as a nation enable it
why should anyone expect the status quo to change if they're able to keep it going?
I think it's more than that. Chazon Ish (Emunah Ubitachon 3:2) calls natural morality a "stumbling block" which is liable to lead people astray from the correct rulings of halacha. I imagine this outlook has pretty deep roots in contemporary charedi hashkafa.
what the heck? did you read his essay over there? or are you purposely taking him out of context?
Sinister? Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. Or in this case, a combination of ignorance, intransigence, self-interest, terror of change and lack of courage or vision as to how that change might be navigated before the typhoon hits land.
Perhaps you are correct with your other descriptions, but stupid they are not.
I am unable to explain what has happened to them, but I disagree with the claim Rabbi Slifkin often makes that they really don't believe what they say. No, they believe it. They have somehow transitioned to a new, twisted hashkafa, and because their world has becone very cult-like, nobody can question it. It's very disturbing.
The original quote I was referencing uses the word "stupidity". That' why I qualified it. Intelligent people can rationalize their own stupid behavior in very clever ways.
Colonel of truth:
There is a website that was created to respond to much of what Natan likes to discuss on his blog. Some of it is light-hearted, but some of it is written in a more serious vein. There is a series of essays written by a reserve officer in the IDF who has been serving continuously since the outbreak of the current war. He addresses many aspects of what Natan is complaining about. I think that you might find reading those essays very helpful in understanding a more balanced perspective.
You can Google the website under irrationalmodoxism, it would take only a very few moments of reviewing their posts to find the specific ones that address the issues that are of interest to you.
Shulman, you are probably familiar with that website, but you might want to review some of those articles if Natan chooses to allow you to guest post on his blog. Although you seem quite knowledgeable, the experience of this particular person might be helpful as well.
Didn't the chazon ish strongly dispute the existence of מוסר טבעי which is not rooted in Torah?
Is this comment addressed to me?
Ye, sorry if it want clear.
that's not a great description imo
I'd love to write a guest post on this so that at least people can understand the other side even if they strongly disagree...
I would love to read a coherent argument supporting the charedi approach. Rav natan, please tahr shulman up on his offer
I'm not sure whether that page is supposed to be satire, or to be taken seriously.
If satire, it's not very funny in my opinion, but each to his own.
If it is supposed to be taken literarily, as far as I can tell, the entire page is just a collection of personal insults against Rav Natan Slifkin, followed by a collection of agadot from the Talmud (which we don't normally use to posken Halacha), and they all seem to be implying that at the moment one is learning Torah, that individual is protected from Malach HaMavet (and there is a midrash that says that the Malach Hamavet had to create a distraction in order to claim the life of David HaMelech).
I didn't see a single Halachic source which hints that during a war, someone learning in Torah in a different location would magically be able to protect the entire nation.
I seriously hope that Charedi Gedolim are able to come up with a more coherent argument.
You people are so funny. You loudly demand a halachic source for hareidim, yet you have no halachic source for your contention that everybody must join the army and you don't even believe that yourself. The best you have is the story of Bnei Gad and Reuven- not halachic. And then when somebody shows you a list of Aggados that demonstrate clearly that Chazal believe Torah protects the entire nation, you dismiss it without reading them. You said before "I would love to read a coherent argument supporting the charedi approach" but this is belied by your behavior.
The halacha that everyone must serve in a מלחמת מצוה is one thing is not predicated on concept of protection. See the Chazon Ish. As such, the concept of "Torah protect" has no application to the halacha of מלחמת מצוה.
I'd be pleasantly surprised if R' Slifkin took you up on this offer. A big part of this blog is to show how bad chareidim are (leaving the judgment aside if that is a worthy cause or not). Posting something that cogently explains their position kinda goes against the grain of what he's trying to do so I don't see it happening. Hopefully I am wrong.