He and his will still gorge on State funding like a pig with both trotters in the trough. And they will demand more from honest hardworking Israelis because of the loss of some of the other funding
You write at thee end of your blog post that the Chareidim should not accept money from the rejected Zionist State. For that same reason, the rejected Zionist State should not give them any money!
I'm surprised at the mischaracterization of the Agudah's position vis-a-vis Zionism. While there were those within the organization who did "not believe that statehood has value" and did "not believe in uniting with other types of Jews to work together," that was not the position of most of its members. The rejection of the WZO was due to its anti-religious agenda and spirit. It was the decision of the Congress to expand the WZO's agenda from simply land-building activities to include "cultural activities" (read: secularizing ones) that triggered a crisis within the Mizrachi. The minority who voted for the Mizrachi to leave the WZO and lost quit the party. These were Hirschian neo-Orthodox types reared on austritt. It was this vacuum that lead to the created of Agudas Yisroel. Remember that the Agudah had its own settlements that contributed to the building of the new yishuv.
While the contemporary members of the WZO are by and large not wanton sinners as their predecessors were, the organization is stilled guided by a charter that ignores the religious character of the Jewish People. Hence many chareidim view membership in it as acceptance of this philosophy.
This is, of course, categorically different than participation in the State, which is not an organization but a political entity which cannot be ignored any more than any other host country. All of this Agudah philosophy is so well known that I'm surprised someone knowledgable could get it wrong.
Your history is...not correct. The Agudah was founded in opposition to Zionism, period. (As you yourself concede when bringing up the Hirschians, who of course weren't the whole party either. Well, really the Agudah was founded because the Mizrachi was winning seats in the Polish parliament, but that's another story.) It was the *Agudah* who broke away from the Eida Charedit so they could...get money from the Zionists.
By the way, if Israeli is really "just another host country," why can't charedim bring themselves to say a tefillah for it and its military, just as they used to say one for the Czar?
I suppose it's possible to believe that Israeli is really "just another host country", or perhaps "Israel is just another for form of exile". (I'm not dealing with the goon squad's assessment that it's "the worst exile".) In which case, one can go ahead and wave flags and pray for its welfare.
But really? Can one honestly believe that? To apply no significance to the miracle that has happened here? Sure, some concession can be made to Rambam's dismissal of messianic speculation as neither leading to "fear of love", but that doesn't negate a non-messianic significance to the State and the developing civilization here. To justify the position that "it's really just another host country" either takes wilful blindness or a savantesque (?) sophistry that would also kasher שרצים.
So the kind of mundane patriotism and civic responsibility you're calling become very difficult without working out an ideology that explains our era. So it's no explained. And thus, there's little civic responsibility you talk about- not on the official organized level. You end up with the crass mercenary pragmaticism that is core ideology of UTJ.
The tefillah for the welfare of the government is in every siddur and was said by most countries is Europe . . . you see, Chareidim in Israel have it so well, many *actually think* they are in a bad galus, kind of like a spoiled teenager who throws a tantrum about how horrible his life is when his parents don't let him borrow the car. (But I notice they're not moving back to Russia, Poland or Lithuania.)
Rabbi Wein has a story in one of his books about the time a chassidish kid in Monsey complained to him about how bad the golus is because the supermarket would only give him cash back for nine of his ten bottles.
Prayers for the government, whichever government, are advised in Pirkei Avot. If I'm not wrong, the Czar was an example in extremis. If I'm not wrong, Nachum was saying "if you can pray for any host country you find yourself in, even the Czar, why can't you do it in the State of Israel?"
When I got to this point in the post, "It’s refreshing to see someone actually sticking to their values, even at personal cost", I thought to myself: "But I wonder if he and his yeshivah/kollel/community take money from the State? 🤔"
Seriously. It makes no sense that you live in a country but insist you are not part of that country, but yet you use the roads, the utilities, and of course government assistance. It's unethical at the least.
When you put it like that, they sound like Sovereign Citizens, Americans who insist that they can drive without licenses or license plates because they are "people who live on the land" who have magically decided that they're not subject to US law.
All those things are aspects of ישוב הארץ. With the possible exception of living of the dole.
I will note that you are not alone in your view. Way out on the fringes there's Moshe Ber Beck who in his ironically titled קומי צאי מתוך ההפיכה agrees with you that it's impossible to live here without benefiting from the Zionist infrastructure. (It's also impossible to avoid paying taxes to the same.) Consequently, it's a cardinal sin to live in ארץ ישראל.
I’m not so sure. I think what Rav Landau is actually doing is he is treating the state of Israel in the same way that he would treat any other sovereign state. When moshiach comes then he will think of Israel as a nation holy to you know who.
I don't care which state they're living in; they are obligated to participate in all the ways everyone else participates. End of story. Sorry, just my opinion. And if I were Israeli I would be extremely upset about it.
“There is a very big question. How can they make a demonstration [against the Israeli government] in front of the non-Jews when they themselves are part of the government and taking money from the government? Why should the non-Jew understand? The Charedi is benefiting from government budgets, is part of the government and has MKs in the government, why should he be any different then a chiloni? This is exactly what the government is asking from the Charedim, to share the burden. The non-Jew can understand that those God fearing Jews who don't participate and have nothing to do with the government and get no government money have a right to not be drafted as well and therefore a demonstration is worthwhile.”
I understand that. If you live in a country you benefit from the government. But they don’t participate in the government or elections and they don’t ask for any specific money like the other charedim do. Because of that they have a much more legitimate position.
One thing that irks is that there is, of course, *already* a perfectly acceptable religious slate, one actually headed by the gadol hador. And if the claim is made that voting for a Zionist party is unacceptable, I remind you that you can't vote in the Zionist elections without signing a statement that you are a...Zionist.
So I asked a prominent non-charedi supporter of Eretz HaKodesh about this and got a response that began with...money. (Specifically underwriting a year in Israel for Americans.) Which we can discuss on various grounds, but at least that's honest, I guess.
Of course, what should have happened was that in 1948 the Israeli government should have declared that the WZO had fulfilled its purpose and that its place and that of the Jewish Agency would be fully taken by the Israeli government, with any outstanding roles (and that of the JNF and other related organizations) being folded into it. They can still do that, but of course Jewish organizations never die. They could turn the World Zionist Congress into some regular world meeting of the Jewish people with no real power except I suppose perhaps for deciding where money actually coming from overseas gets spent.
A few Congresses ago the head of the Conservative delegation, who was the Chancellor of JTS, said he was going, but that really the whole thing should be shut down. Give that man a medal.
R Dov gave a different reason why not to join, because to vote you need to pay, and some of that money goes to Keren Hayesod and Reform institutions (אורגנים הבינלאומים). The reason why the OU votes for Mizrachi is because then the funds are diverted to better uses.
He and his will still gorge on State funding like a pig with both trotters in the trough. And they will demand more from honest hardworking Israelis because of the loss of some of the other funding
You write at thee end of your blog post that the Chareidim should not accept money from the rejected Zionist State. For that same reason, the rejected Zionist State should not give them any money!
I'm surprised at the mischaracterization of the Agudah's position vis-a-vis Zionism. While there were those within the organization who did "not believe that statehood has value" and did "not believe in uniting with other types of Jews to work together," that was not the position of most of its members. The rejection of the WZO was due to its anti-religious agenda and spirit. It was the decision of the Congress to expand the WZO's agenda from simply land-building activities to include "cultural activities" (read: secularizing ones) that triggered a crisis within the Mizrachi. The minority who voted for the Mizrachi to leave the WZO and lost quit the party. These were Hirschian neo-Orthodox types reared on austritt. It was this vacuum that lead to the created of Agudas Yisroel. Remember that the Agudah had its own settlements that contributed to the building of the new yishuv.
While the contemporary members of the WZO are by and large not wanton sinners as their predecessors were, the organization is stilled guided by a charter that ignores the religious character of the Jewish People. Hence many chareidim view membership in it as acceptance of this philosophy.
This is, of course, categorically different than participation in the State, which is not an organization but a political entity which cannot be ignored any more than any other host country. All of this Agudah philosophy is so well known that I'm surprised someone knowledgable could get it wrong.
Your history is...not correct. The Agudah was founded in opposition to Zionism, period. (As you yourself concede when bringing up the Hirschians, who of course weren't the whole party either. Well, really the Agudah was founded because the Mizrachi was winning seats in the Polish parliament, but that's another story.) It was the *Agudah* who broke away from the Eida Charedit so they could...get money from the Zionists.
By the way, if Israeli is really "just another host country," why can't charedim bring themselves to say a tefillah for it and its military, just as they used to say one for the Czar?
They’d rather say a blessing for Trump than צה״ל…..it’s just plain disgusting……
I'll say a bracha for both, thank you very much.
"why can't charedim bring themselves"
I suppose it's possible to believe that Israeli is really "just another host country", or perhaps "Israel is just another for form of exile". (I'm not dealing with the goon squad's assessment that it's "the worst exile".) In which case, one can go ahead and wave flags and pray for its welfare.
But really? Can one honestly believe that? To apply no significance to the miracle that has happened here? Sure, some concession can be made to Rambam's dismissal of messianic speculation as neither leading to "fear of love", but that doesn't negate a non-messianic significance to the State and the developing civilization here. To justify the position that "it's really just another host country" either takes wilful blindness or a savantesque (?) sophistry that would also kasher שרצים.
So the kind of mundane patriotism and civic responsibility you're calling become very difficult without working out an ideology that explains our era. So it's no explained. And thus, there's little civic responsibility you talk about- not on the official organized level. You end up with the crass mercenary pragmaticism that is core ideology of UTJ.
You really don't know why the chareidim said a tefillah for the Czar? Put it this way. It wasn't out of love and affection.
The tefillah for the welfare of the government is in every siddur and was said by most countries is Europe . . . you see, Chareidim in Israel have it so well, many *actually think* they are in a bad galus, kind of like a spoiled teenager who throws a tantrum about how horrible his life is when his parents don't let him borrow the car. (But I notice they're not moving back to Russia, Poland or Lithuania.)
Rabbi Wein has a story in one of his books about the time a chassidish kid in Monsey complained to him about how bad the golus is because the supermarket would only give him cash back for nine of his ten bottles.
Prayers for the government, whichever government, are advised in Pirkei Avot. If I'm not wrong, the Czar was an example in extremis. If I'm not wrong, Nachum was saying "if you can pray for any host country you find yourself in, even the Czar, why can't you do it in the State of Israel?"
The Czar never forced them to.
You know anything about life under the Czar for Jews?
I thought it was a הלכה. And history shows that the alternative was worse.
No such halochoh anywhere in shulchan oruch.
Not all הלכות in the ש"ע, and not everyone rules like the ש"ע. It's sufficient to say that it's a widely accepted מנהג and some rule that it's a חיוב.
As such your comment about the Czar is irrelevant, inappropriate and petulant.
It's not widely accepted at all. You just made that up. Who rules it's a chiuv?
Its a mishna in avos, I know its not halacha but pretty close. And it was said at the time when the Romans were in charge.
Mishnayos are not halochos.
And a pasuk in the Navi.
When I got to this point in the post, "It’s refreshing to see someone actually sticking to their values, even at personal cost", I thought to myself: "But I wonder if he and his yeshivah/kollel/community take money from the State? 🤔"
Then I read the next sentence.
Seriously. It makes no sense that you live in a country but insist you are not part of that country, but yet you use the roads, the utilities, and of course government assistance. It's unethical at the least.
When you put it like that, they sound like Sovereign Citizens, Americans who insist that they can drive without licenses or license plates because they are "people who live on the land" who have magically decided that they're not subject to US law.
All those things are aspects of ישוב הארץ. With the possible exception of living of the dole.
I will note that you are not alone in your view. Way out on the fringes there's Moshe Ber Beck who in his ironically titled קומי צאי מתוך ההפיכה agrees with you that it's impossible to live here without benefiting from the Zionist infrastructure. (It's also impossible to avoid paying taxes to the same.) Consequently, it's a cardinal sin to live in ארץ ישראל.
WE have push this halacha and get all charedim to accept it.
IF we can get even half of them to leave Israel, it will be he greatest thing for our land!
I’m not so sure. I think what Rav Landau is actually doing is he is treating the state of Israel in the same way that he would treat any other sovereign state. When moshiach comes then he will think of Israel as a nation holy to you know who.
I don't care which state they're living in; they are obligated to participate in all the ways everyone else participates. End of story. Sorry, just my opinion. And if I were Israeli I would be extremely upset about it.
I agree with you completely.
And the army.
The only ones who have real integrity about this issue are Satmar. https://jewishworker.blogspot.com/2013/12/at-least-satmar-rebbe-is-honest-about.html
The Satmar Rebbe said the following in 2013
“There is a very big question. How can they make a demonstration [against the Israeli government] in front of the non-Jews when they themselves are part of the government and taking money from the government? Why should the non-Jew understand? The Charedi is benefiting from government budgets, is part of the government and has MKs in the government, why should he be any different then a chiloni? This is exactly what the government is asking from the Charedim, to share the burden. The non-Jew can understand that those God fearing Jews who don't participate and have nothing to do with the government and get no government money have a right to not be drafted as well and therefore a demonstration is worthwhile.”
Satmar in Israel take money from the government. Even if they don't take direct payments (and most do), they benefit in a million other ways.
I understand that. If you live in a country you benefit from the government. But they don’t participate in the government or elections and they don’t ask for any specific money like the other charedim do. Because of that they have a much more legitimate position.
Don't conflate consistency with honesty.
One thing that irks is that there is, of course, *already* a perfectly acceptable religious slate, one actually headed by the gadol hador. And if the claim is made that voting for a Zionist party is unacceptable, I remind you that you can't vote in the Zionist elections without signing a statement that you are a...Zionist.
So I asked a prominent non-charedi supporter of Eretz HaKodesh about this and got a response that began with...money. (Specifically underwriting a year in Israel for Americans.) Which we can discuss on various grounds, but at least that's honest, I guess.
Of course, what should have happened was that in 1948 the Israeli government should have declared that the WZO had fulfilled its purpose and that its place and that of the Jewish Agency would be fully taken by the Israeli government, with any outstanding roles (and that of the JNF and other related organizations) being folded into it. They can still do that, but of course Jewish organizations never die. They could turn the World Zionist Congress into some regular world meeting of the Jewish people with no real power except I suppose perhaps for deciding where money actually coming from overseas gets spent.
A few Congresses ago the head of the Conservative delegation, who was the Chancellor of JTS, said he was going, but that really the whole thing should be shut down. Give that man a medal.
"One thing that irks is that there is, of course, *already* a perfectly acceptable religious slate, one actually headed by the gadol hador."
Out of pure curiosity, which one are you talking about? There are several religious slates.
Maybe you see that not all chareidim think the same way
R Dov gave a different reason why not to join, because to vote you need to pay, and some of that money goes to Keren Hayesod and Reform institutions (אורגנים הבינלאומים). The reason why the OU votes for Mizrachi is because then the funds are diverted to better uses.