If American citizens want to change Israel government policy then they should make Aliyah. Until then, with all due respect, they should remain silent.
To be fair, they're not trying to change government policy. Government policy has always been, and always will be, to exempt Charedim from army service. They are trying to change Bagatz policy, which has always been anti-charedi. Remember that Bagatz is not elected by the majority of the people. The majority of the people voted for the current government, who's policy is to exempt charedim from the IDF.
No problem to get 100,000 charedi people out to this demonstration - here's why!
The Charedi community does not have much opportunity to go to an event. They don't go to baseball games, plays , circuses, concerts, etc. Comes along an event they can go to - then it is 'Kol Yotzi Tzvah" all will go out.
Notice in Israel every funeral, even for some average guy ,draws a large crowd, Most don't even know who the nifter is, They look at the big advertisements (that is what I call them) plastered all over the streets, looking at the last name, think....think....they remember vaguely they came across that name, and it is out to pay their respects.
The difference in Israel it is out of boredom, sitting around all day - While in America it is something to do . Notice, every few weeks these days, there are Torah honors, Siyems, Starting to learn a new misechta, Finishing Mishna Birurah, etc. that full large arenas. This is good for the Charedi society, as they can have some fun, listen to good singers, dance in the aisles etc. all the while they feel they are doing something worthwhile. Recently the woman said - what about us, and now we got Torah for woman events. The rich guy that is sponsoring (paying for all this) - is loving it, taking in all the waxing, all the praise and attention. For him it is money well spent.
Years ago they had these events every few years, but that was too long, not it is every 3 months on average. Now that this event is a demonstration, who care why, there is NO- PROBLEM filling it up. Should they bring in a popular singer the better it will be!
We should be happy for them - they are enjoying themselves.!
A simpler explanation is that fundamentalist religion has the power to mobilize large groups of people. Consider the even larger crowds seen at Muslim funerals
Simpler answer is that this rally was about the egos of the Rabbonim who organized it and would get the chance to flex their muscles and appear before a huge crowd, while the would-be participants (other than teenagers) didn't really want to go but were being strong-armed into it.
The United States has always allowed religious exemptions to the military draft. But the numbers have always been tiny. In World War II, 25,000 accepted non-combatant military service, mostly as medics; they saved a lot of lives. Another 12,000 did alternative service, in hospitals, conservation camps, and sometimes as wildfire firefighters. A Mennonite minister once told me that Mennonite churches became big advocates for the mentally ill because so many Mennonites had done their alternative service in mental hospitals and saw up close the horrific conditions in them. 6,000 conscientious objectors had their applications rejected and were sent to prison; most were Jehovah's Witnesses. Ironically, Jehovah's Witnesses were among the groups specifically targeted by Hitler. That's 43,000 out of about 16 million in the US military by the end of the war -- about 1/4 of 1%.
"but are instead declaring themselves to be in a state of war against Israel and are actively working to delegitimize it."
They're doing no such thing. It's remarkable how unhinged you are about this. Even if you think charedim are a bunch of draft dodging parasites, you ought to be able to draw the blatantly obvious distinction between siding with the enemy versus being opposed on religious grounds to something which the state of Israel is doing to its *own* citizens.
Holding a hate on Israel rally in the diaspora is siding with the enemy. I don't are whether it is Rashida Tlaib who organizes it or some a charedi "gedol".
That was not when hamas flags were flying in NY. I'm sorry but there is a reason why no-one other that affiliated with satmar is on this. Yes, extreme right Lakewood too. No one else on Aguda endorsed it, and when Rav Shmuel was running things this would never happen, save maybe REBW.
It was much more precarious but it did not have the same associations. for example, you can say "bring them home" and be pro-Israel, but if you say "ceasefire now", with all good intentions, it makes you sound like the opposition. It's just the way it is.
I personally have nothing against making such a protest if we carried Israeli flags, which would clarify what we are protesting (They're good at that in Israel). But this is Satmar we are talking about so that's not happening.
They oppose the existence of Israel. They suck it dry like leeches and give nothing back. They demonstrate in cooperation with its Jew-hating enemies. They deny it's legitimacy. They are enemies of Israel and all Jews except their own cultists
'with the encouragement of charedi “Gedolim” in Israel who have fabricated the existence of a “war against Torah”'
While I wouldn't call it a "war against Torah", the attorney general's approach has been pretty militant. I wouldn't disagree with Charedim who feel that a war is being waged against them. This blog has certainly been waging such a war. (I say that as someone who doesn't agree with the Charedi approach.)
I notice that you often use the verb "draft" in this sense, as something that the potential soldiers do or don't do. I always thought that the army does the drafting, and the people get drafted. Is this a difference between American and British English, perhaps?
No, it’s an Israeli thing, which eventually infects olim, based on the similarity between the words in Hebrew. They use “draft” for both “draft” and “enlist.” It’s similar to the way they use the word “or” for both “or” and “either.”
If American citizens want to change Israel government policy then they should make Aliyah. Until then, with all due respect, they should remain silent.
I agree 100%
To be fair, they're not trying to change government policy. Government policy has always been, and always will be, to exempt Charedim from army service. They are trying to change Bagatz policy, which has always been anti-charedi. Remember that Bagatz is not elected by the majority of the people. The majority of the people voted for the current government, who's policy is to exempt charedim from the IDF.
No, it had not "always been." And no law exempting them has been passed.
No problem to get 100,000 charedi people out to this demonstration - here's why!
The Charedi community does not have much opportunity to go to an event. They don't go to baseball games, plays , circuses, concerts, etc. Comes along an event they can go to - then it is 'Kol Yotzi Tzvah" all will go out.
Notice in Israel every funeral, even for some average guy ,draws a large crowd, Most don't even know who the nifter is, They look at the big advertisements (that is what I call them) plastered all over the streets, looking at the last name, think....think....they remember vaguely they came across that name, and it is out to pay their respects.
The difference in Israel it is out of boredom, sitting around all day - While in America it is something to do . Notice, every few weeks these days, there are Torah honors, Siyems, Starting to learn a new misechta, Finishing Mishna Birurah, etc. that full large arenas. This is good for the Charedi society, as they can have some fun, listen to good singers, dance in the aisles etc. all the while they feel they are doing something worthwhile. Recently the woman said - what about us, and now we got Torah for woman events. The rich guy that is sponsoring (paying for all this) - is loving it, taking in all the waxing, all the praise and attention. For him it is money well spent.
Years ago they had these events every few years, but that was too long, not it is every 3 months on average. Now that this event is a demonstration, who care why, there is NO- PROBLEM filling it up. Should they bring in a popular singer the better it will be!
We should be happy for them - they are enjoying themselves.!
A simpler explanation is that fundamentalist religion has the power to mobilize large groups of people. Consider the even larger crowds seen at Muslim funerals
Simpler answer is that this rally was about the egos of the Rabbonim who organized it and would get the chance to flex their muscles and appear before a huge crowd, while the would-be participants (other than teenagers) didn't really want to go but were being strong-armed into it.
Sure, I guess they can pause Torah study to scream to the world.
The United States has always allowed religious exemptions to the military draft. But the numbers have always been tiny. In World War II, 25,000 accepted non-combatant military service, mostly as medics; they saved a lot of lives. Another 12,000 did alternative service, in hospitals, conservation camps, and sometimes as wildfire firefighters. A Mennonite minister once told me that Mennonite churches became big advocates for the mentally ill because so many Mennonites had done their alternative service in mental hospitals and saw up close the horrific conditions in them. 6,000 conscientious objectors had their applications rejected and were sent to prison; most were Jehovah's Witnesses. Ironically, Jehovah's Witnesses were among the groups specifically targeted by Hitler. That's 43,000 out of about 16 million in the US military by the end of the war -- about 1/4 of 1%.
Charedim are not conscientious objectors.
They could claim it, I guess, but that would really not look good, and would probably be rejected.
Their world is truly upside down.
This will be a far larger hate-on-Israel rally than the Hamas supporters and the secular far left has ever managed to have.
As Walt Kelly famously wrote, "We have met the enemy and he is us."
Nobody wants their cheese moved
Thank G-d Israelis never heard of the Rabbis you listed. Just moving forwards, step after step.
At least I didn’t see any Sephardi signatories on that “kol korei.”
Chaim Berlin Rosh Yeshiva
"but are instead declaring themselves to be in a state of war against Israel and are actively working to delegitimize it."
They're doing no such thing. It's remarkable how unhinged you are about this. Even if you think charedim are a bunch of draft dodging parasites, you ought to be able to draw the blatantly obvious distinction between siding with the enemy versus being opposed on religious grounds to something which the state of Israel is doing to its *own* citizens.
They are not opposed to the State of Israel having a draft. They WANT Israel to have a draft. They just want a special exemption for themselves.
That's a non-sequitur. (Probably false, to boot.)
Holding a hate on Israel rally in the diaspora is siding with the enemy. I don't are whether it is Rashida Tlaib who organizes it or some a charedi "gedol".
Whatever. R Aharon Kotler disagreed with you. https://www.jta.org/archive/new-york-orthodox-jews-protest-persecution-of-religion-in-israel I don't see why people in Lakewood should especially care whether you approve of a given rally or not.
That was not when hamas flags were flying in NY. I'm sorry but there is a reason why no-one other that affiliated with satmar is on this. Yes, extreme right Lakewood too. No one else on Aguda endorsed it, and when Rav Shmuel was running things this would never happen, save maybe REBW.
"That was not when hamas flags were flying in NY."
The flip side of that is the fifties were right after the holocaust and the existence of the state was much more precarious than it is now.
It was much more precarious but it did not have the same associations. for example, you can say "bring them home" and be pro-Israel, but if you say "ceasefire now", with all good intentions, it makes you sound like the opposition. It's just the way it is.
I personally have nothing against making such a protest if we carried Israeli flags, which would clarify what we are protesting (They're good at that in Israel). But this is Satmar we are talking about so that's not happening.
They oppose the existence of Israel. They suck it dry like leeches and give nothing back. They demonstrate in cooperation with its Jew-hating enemies. They deny it's legitimacy. They are enemies of Israel and all Jews except their own cultists
'with the encouragement of charedi “Gedolim” in Israel who have fabricated the existence of a “war against Torah”'
While I wouldn't call it a "war against Torah", the attorney general's approach has been pretty militant. I wouldn't disagree with Charedim who feel that a war is being waged against them. This blog has certainly been waging such a war. (I say that as someone who doesn't agree with the Charedi approach.)
If you're NOT charedi, and you avoid drafting, you go to prison.
I notice that you often use the verb "draft" in this sense, as something that the potential soldiers do or don't do. I always thought that the army does the drafting, and the people get drafted. Is this a difference between American and British English, perhaps?
No, it’s an Israeli thing, which eventually infects olim, based on the similarity between the words in Hebrew. They use “draft” for both “draft” and “enlist.” It’s similar to the way they use the word “or” for both “or” and “either.”
Isn't there a difference in Hebrew as well (לגייס/להתגייס)?
Yes. As I said, they are similar, not identical.
What other choice is there? Decades of trying to compromise on the issue and general society going out of their way have resulted in minimal progress
Here's a link to a great article about this, in form of a letter to Klal Yisroel: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vbyESjZqrH__6QcwJezVVToBGJwOQTBC/view?usp=drivesdk
Not sure I can 'love' this post... oy vey