A lot of these have been written this year. Here is a compilation of them (contact itshakliman at gee mail dot com for a copy after the link expires).
Rabbi Slifkin, thank you for going to this lecture and for giving voice to those of us who share your perspective. You truly did a huge service for עם ישראל.
"and repeating that nobody should ever take spiritual risk"
I think the parsha of Eishes Yefas Toar seems to contradict that point. Not only does the Torah acknowledge the spiritual risk of a soldier engaging with a non-Jewish women, it even creates allowances knowing that the issur would be too difficult for the soldiers. The Torah does not give this an excuse to not serve, it's a given that everyone needs to serve despite the risks, and the Torah even works with the soldiers on dealing with those risks.
ויספו השטרים לדבר אל העם וגו׳״, רבי עקיבא אומר: ״הירא ורך הלבב״ — כמשמעו, שאינו יכול לעמוד בקשרי המלחמה ולראות חרב שלופה. רבי יוסי הגלילי אומר: ״הירא ורך הלבב״ — זהו המתיירא מן העבירות שבידו, לפיכך תלתה לו התורה את כל אלו, שיחזור בגללן.
MISHNA: The mishna continues its discussion of the speech given before battle. “And the officers shall speak further to the people, and they shall say: What man is there that is fearful and fainthearted? Let him go and return unto his house” (Deuteronomy 20:8). Rabbi Akiva says: “That is fearful and fainthearted” is to be understood as it indicates, that the man is unable to stand in the battle ranks and to see a drawn sword because it will terrify him. Rabbi Yosei HaGelili says: “That is fearful and fainthearted”; this is one who is afraid because of the sins that he has; he, too, returns. Therefore, the Torah provided him with all these additional reasons for exemption from the army so he can ascribe his leaving to one of them. In this way, the sinner may leave the ranks without having to publicly acknowledge that he is a sinner.
I appreciate your "shtikel Torah" but what does this have to do with the spiritual risk being discussed? Isn't this talking about someone who is scared that the sins he already did will act against him and he'll be punished for them? The spiritual risk being discussed here is that the soldier will be enticed to lose his way in religion. Seems to me to be totally different
I am proud to say that I know that hesder student too! How? Because he was the medic for the Shlav Bet unit I just did basic training with. If he weren't interrupted by the Rav so much, he might have informed the Rav that the Shlav Bet unit had numerous accommodations for chareidi soldiers (explicit allowance to change words of hatikva, zero interactions with women, mehadrin food (including Badatz double wrapped for those who wouldn't eat Landau, Machpud, etc).
In fact, though it is not yet public, the army has assigned a team to build an entire base that will be religious/charedi from start to finish, no women on base, all mehadrin food, a mikveh, and more.
Yasher Koach to T.R. and R. Slifkin for showing up and asking the hard questions respectfully.
Fascinatingly, here is a (characteristically thoughtful) piece by R. Yehoshua Pfeffer (Note: It was published on Oct. 6th!) where he quotes R. Neugroschel's philosophy on how to speak on this subject to secular audiences.
I think that the Rabbi missed a great opportunity. The Hesder student was asking very legitimate questions. The Rabbi could have used the opportunity to rouse the congretion to some genuine hakarat hatov - to share with the sorrow and pain of the non-Haredi population.
Unfortunately, the Haredi community is in reality allergic to "hakarat hatov" to the non-Haredi. To express any such gratitude would be to admit a vulnerabilty in depending on others to defend them. The Haredi way of life demands that they believe in the unadulterated idealism of their lifestyle choices. I think that is what the Rabbi was hinting at when he claimed that the Haredi lifestyle is by definition ethical and quoted (or misquoted) some sources. A more honest approach is to scoff at the suggestion of gratitude towards the non-Haredi (as some Haredi Rabbis have famously done). This Rabbi wants to give lip service to hakarat haTov (because it sounds nice), but won't actually encourage any of his followers to SHOW hakarat haTov by actually DOING something.
"This Rabbi wants to give lip service to hakarat haTov (because it sounds nice), but won't actually encourage any of his followers to SHOW hakarat haTov by actually DOING something." You nailed it.
There's a story from the Olympic Games in Ancient Greece- an old man came into the stadium and there were no seats. A young Spartan got up and offered him his seat. Some young Athenians sitting nearby saw this and applauded the Spartan. The old man turned to them and said, "Athenians *know* what the right thing to do is. Spartans *do* it!"
His sources were good, and he was right that your question was irrelevant. He was talking about the people actually risking their lives in war, not the other burdens of war. The response "זה לא ציבור!!!!!!!" is irrelevant.
How on earth is it irrelevant? Dati leumi society is one in which the entire community is willing collectively to make the sacrifices required, including risking lives. The charedi community is the exact opposite - the entire community refuses this. I can assure you that if the entire city of Haifa said that their entire population will only serve in the army in non-combat and non-demanding roles, there would be enormous resentment and legal action.
That's true that the Dati leumi is making a sacrifice by sending some of their youth to risk their lives, but risk to life itself is something that can only be undertaken by an individual. I'm not sure you're right about the theoretical Haifa example, it depends if they had a good reason to take on non-combat roles. For example, if they were more suited for intelligence roles. FWIW I don't think the serious Dati learners should be serving.
"risk to life itself is something that can only be undertaken by an individual."
Assuming that you are correct- and of course you are not, that's what "draft" means- just leaves you in worse shape, as you are essentially saying that dati leumi people are far more willing to be moser nefesh than charedi ones. What does that say about the charedi world and values?
"I'm not sure you're right about the theoretical Haifa example, it depends if they had a good reason to take on non-combat roles. For example, if they were more suited for intelligence roles."
An entire city is not going to be suited to one thing more than another. Nor is an entire community, merely by dint of their choice of headgear. The example is nearly perfect.
"FWIW I don't think the serious Dati learners should be serving."
How inconvenient for you that they choose to do so, then. I guess Hashem will add one more person to the Yosef-Hillel-Rebbe story: "I couldn't serve because I was such a serious learner!" "Well, here is a dati leumi soldier who was a serious learner."
That's what the Chassidim HaRishonim who refused to fight on Shabbat said about the Maccabim. Look it up.
"You just decided that."
Human nature decided that. Here's a shocker for you: Not every person who wears a black hat is an intellectual genius. "Lake Woebegone, where all the children are above-average" is a *joke*. If they ever had to take actual tests, a lot of charedim would be in for a shock.
"And he should be in the Bais Medrash, not the army. He, and those who misguided him, will be brought to din for that decision."
Exactly, Israel desperately needs soldiers with attacks on two fronts and Iran. My daughter serving in a combat unit was supposed to finish in September but now must immediately do miluim for the next four months. I am very scared that if this Haredi nonsense and chillul HaShem continues, the whole of Israel, yes including the Haredim, will share the fate of Kibbutz Beri.
If the ultra-Orthodox rule that there is an obligation to go to war because Jews are attacked for killing and rape, and if in their opinion this involves anti-Orthodox frameworks in the IDF, why did not one of all the ultra-Orthodox leaders turn to the IDF with the demand, open up IDF frameworks with a thousand demands...? No one turned. Conclusion: Their argument, that they want to enlist but that the IDF is not prepared for the ultra-Orthodox, is 100% false.
There is an idea that opening negotiations is a loser's game. Once the government gets them to participate, then they'll suck them in and renege on their earlier promises. Look at what they did to the Dati Leumi studying for a year or two prior to the army. They decided to cut their studies short because of the emergency.
This is simply a lie; The IDF never promised the HESDER guys that in time of war, they would not be drafted. The opposite is true; all HAHEDSDER guys were drafted so that, in time of war, they could conduct a mitzvah war.
Some history from a few weeks ago! The one who informed the Knesset that they should vote on a law for HeSeder boys who will continue to serve, is the ultra-orthodox minister Porush! why? Because a week later the same minister introduced a law that completely exempts any ultra-Orthodox from serving in the IDF. So, Your "loser's game who suck them in and remege on their early promises" are the Haredim in the government and Knesset, their Rabonim and Admorim who rule their votes in the Knesset!!!
You are 100% right. The IDF promised the Hesder students X months of study. Now the HAMAS and Hizbollah are coming to murder them and the IDF will keep its promise: keep studying. Whoever will kill you, it is their fault! Not we who kept our promise! Don't take arms to protect you!
There isn't much point in squabbling with me about it. If the yeshiva bochurim would come to me for guidance (let's fantasize here a bit), then I would encourage them to share the burden and allow the Dati Leumi students to complete their alloted time in the Beit Midrash.
On the other hand I'm not afraid to point out that the Haredi community is not wrong to not trust the government.
I believe we're overlooking the fact that the Charedi way of life is not only causing significant issues in Israel but is also creating tremendous challenges in the diaspora. A considerable amount of resources are being funneled to 'Yissachar,' leaving 'Zevulun' struggling to sustain itself, which in many instances is leading to its collapse. Frum (and ironically many of them charedi) Jewish schools and institutions worldwide are finding it difficult to pay teachers, security guards, and other essential staff because so much of our communal maaserot are being directed to yeshivas in Israel. Unfortunately, the local communities are so naive that they actually buy into this. The local rabbanim wouldn't dare challenge the 'gedolim,' and the wealthy are showered with brachot and rabbinic attention, believing they are saving Torah in our times. I don't entirely blame those who support these rabbis, as they genuinely believe this is the Torah way and feel obligated to follow their rabbis. Moreover, even if you prove to them that they are mistaken, they would argue that we simply don't understand the greatness of the gedolim and therefore must be wrong. Furthermore, they believe that even if the gedolim were mistaken, we would still have to follow them, as that's the Torah way. In many respects, the Charedi world is like Reform Judaism from the opposite direction. Both are, in essence, tinokot shenishbu who are causing irreversible damage and destruction. At least all this makes it easier to connect with Tisha B'av
As a Kollel yungerman, I don't agree that a considerable amount of resources are being funneled to 'Yissachar,'. Rather a considerable amount of resources are being funneled
to propping up institutions that hardly benefit anyone under the illusion that it being funneled to 'Yissachar,'.
I am not referring to money distributed in Israel. I know nothing about that. I also am not claiming that anyone is actually stealing the money, but rather that money is distributed in a way that does not benefit yungeleit or Torah, but merely benefits the institutions
Besides, as I've pointed out many times on this blog, the ones who causes today's crisis are those who did not grow demographically and the ones who are solving at are those who are growing demographically.
Should I post a list of threads where I discussed it.
Headlines which is much more honest about these types of issues addressed this issue last week. Rabbi Pfeffer who is a broad minded haredi Rav has a fascinating take on the issue. You can listen here. https://overcast.fm/+AAtT_kDsMmY/29:21
Basically he said that it’s not a halachic issue but it’s a cultural one and the charedi world is very afraid of what could happen in the army and the charedi world is very conservative. It’s a very worthwhile listen IMHO.
This does not appear to reflect well on either Ra Neugroschel or his arguments, and I hope this discussion continues.
It's not clear to me why Rav Neugroschel came to talk about these iasues, especially now, 10 months into a particularly painful war, and to this particular audience, or at least as Neugroschel perceived it.
It’s not a gray area. What a bunch of dodgers. My nephew is as frum and halachic as any of you and has been called up twice and just got out of Gaza. He has 4 kids including a baby. Quit whining and start acting like you care about the future of your country. You are failing every test you are getting. Dismal failures.
Because I have been working through this "sugya" for quite a while trying to determine what I feel is the most correct approach. I see merit in some arguments on both sides and I was hoping to hear a well thought out and well presented analysis of the chareidi side (which I assumed was the side he would be representing)
I personally did not find it as comprehensive as I was hoping for. As Natan pointed out, it was pretty thin on sources and explanation.
That being said, I've come to realize in general how futile "sources" are when dealing with a sensitive, gray halachic/hashkafic issue (I hope we can agree that it is a gray area due to all the variables involved). For every source someone can bring there are opposing sources and differing interpretations and applications.
In that light, the thing that did make a strong impression on me was his impressive list of firsthand experiences with big people from multiple sectors, including chareidi gedolim, DL gedolim, high-ups in the army, people in the knesset.
So in the sense of "מעשה רב" it did feel like his words carried a lot of weight when he says something like the top DL rabbanim agree that yeshiva boys should not be in the army.
Obviously this needs to be discussed more in detail and I would love it if there was a respectable correspondence between him and someone from the opposite side really going through the issues and getting to the bottom of where exactly the disagreement(s) exist.
Finally, I got the impression from him that he is a caring individual and is not just looking to explain away something he doesn't believe to be true. He appears genuine in his approach and truly believes in it.
I was half expecting someone to make this comment.
It probably didn't occur to you that I'm referring to the fact that I have a son going into 6th grade and we will very soon have to pretty much definitively decide which track he will go on. Do you feel it's inappropriate to fully think it through before making this decision?
At this point after 10 months of war and opponents of Israel on all sides, the very fact that Charedim are continuing in acting like they have a halachic reason to not serve when others have been called up twice is just a gross and selfish act. It is not sustainable and honestly it makes this segment of society appear to be ridiculous and selfish.
All the condescending attitude towards anyone who is not ultra-Orthodox; Any reliance on legends for the ruling of Halacha - and the Halacha is that there are no rulings based on legends!; Any reliance on halachic rulings given 100 years ago and one should not judge except what his eyes see now!; Relying on pashkevils without any halachic basis; The prohibition of some of their "rabbis" to reveal any emotion and commandment of visiting the sick and comforting the bereaved of soldiers, means one simple thing: they do not feel themselves part of the people of Israel. So, in their opinion, they are sinners? In their opinion, not at all! Because they claim that we are not Israel in the flesh and in the spirit. We are EREV RAV, AMALEK, MINIM, we are indeed Israel in the flesh, but they are Israel in the spirit and flesh. Note the striking similarity with HAMINIM's claim to this day. Open any Christian book and you will find
R. Neugerschol hit the nail on the head. Our security depends upon our observance of the mitzvot the first and foremost being that we treat eachother properly and not on the number of soldiers in the IDF.
I remember in one of his drashot on the subject he said that If being in the army causes a single person to stop keeping mitzvot - then this causes more harm than downing an enemy plane (or killing x number of terrorists these days) can bring good.
And did he have a source for this extreme claim? In any case, he obviously doesn't really believe it. By the way, if you have a link to a recording of him saying this, it would be helpful.
Unrelated, sorry - You should post this moving kinaah, Natan (you can even leave in the last stanza...):
https://matzav.com/rav-rimon-pens-new-tisha-bav-kinnah-lammenting-events-of-the-simchas-torah-massacre/
שִׂמְחַת תּוֹרָה – שְׁמִינִי עֲצֶרֶת,
נֶהְפַּךְ מְחוֹלֵנוּ לְתוּגָה קוֹדֶרֶת;
בְּיוֹם זֶה נִפְרְצוּ הַגְּדֵרוֹת,
יִשּׁוּבֵי הָעוֹטֵף, אֳפָקִים וּשְׂדֵרוֹת.
Simchas Torah – Shemini Atzeret,
Our dancing was turned into despondent grief;
On this day the fences were breached,
[In] the towns of the [Gaza] envelope, Ofakim and Sderot.
אֵיכָה אַרְצֵנוּ הָיְתָה לְמִרְמָס,
וַתִּמָּלֵא הָאָרֶץ חַמַאס,
מֵרְצוּעַת עַזָּה מְקוֹר הָרֶשַׁע,
מִשֹּׁרֶשׁ חַמַאס יָצָא צֶפַע.
How was our land humiliated,
The land was filled with Hamas,
From the Gaza Strip, the source of the evil,
From the root of Hamas came poison.
אֵיכָה בִּמְקוֹם שֶׁבַע הַקָּפוֹת,
נָסוּ עַל נַפְשָׁם מֵאֵימַת חֲטִיפוֹת,
אוֹיֵב אַכְזָר מַצִּית שְׂרֵפוֹת,
רוֹצֵחַ, מַשְׁפִּיל, בְּלִי לְהַרְפּוֹת.
How in place of seven hakafos,
They fled for their lives for fear of kidnapping,
A cruel enemy ignited fires,
Murdered, degraded, without letting up.
אֵיכָה בִּמְקוֹם תְּפִלַּת הַגֶּשֶׁם,
יָרַד דּוֹדִי לַעֲרוּגוֹת הַבֹּשֶׂם,
שׁוֹשַׁנִּים נִטְבָּחִים, חִלּוּל הַשֵׁם,
לִמְרַצְּחִים אַל תִּתֵּן יָד וָשֵׁם.
How in place of the Prayer for Rain,
My beloved went down to the scented flower beds,
Roses were murdered, a desecration of G-d’s name,
Do not give a memorial and remembrance to the murderers.
אֵיכָה בִּשְׁנַת שִׁבְעִים וָשֵׁשׁ,
תִּמְרוֹת עָשָׁן דָּם וָאֵשׁ,
יְהוּדִי בְּמַחְבּוֹא נֶחֱרַד וְלוֹחֵשׁ,
תַּחַת עֹנֶג שַׁבַּת קֹדֶשׁ.
How, in the 76th year,
There were pillars of smoke, blood and fire,
A Jew in hiding, whispering in fear,
Instead of the joy of the holy Shabbas.
אֵיכָה בְּנֵי צִיּוֹן הַיְקָרִים,
נָפְלוּ בִּידֵי אַנָּסִים אֲרוּרִים,
מְרוּטֵי לֶחִי נְתוּנִים לְמַכִּים,
אַחִים חֲטוּפִים בִּידֵי חֲמָסִים.
How did the precious children of Zion,
Fall into the hands of accursed rapists,
The plucked of cheek were given over to the attackers,
Our brothers were taken captive by the violent ones.
בַּיּוֹם בּוֹ שִׁמְךָ הִתְחַלֵּל,
לוֹחֲמִים נֶאֶבְקוּ אֶת שִׁמְךָ לְגַדֵּל,
הַבֵּט וּרְאֵה – מִי כְּעַמְּךָ יִשְׂרָאֵל,
חַזְּקֵנוּ וְאַמְּצֵנוּ, וּבָא לְצִיּוֹן גּוֹאֵל.
On the day Your name was defiled,
Soldiers fought to advance Your great name,
Look and see – who is like Your people Israel?
Strengthen us and give us courage, and may the redeemer come to Zion.
כְּבַרְזֶל לַחֲמוּ אַמִּיצוֹת וְאַמִּיצִים אֲהוּבִים,
עֲדִינֵי נֶפֶשׁ מִיַּד צַר מְגִנִּים,
בִּגְבוּרָתָם רָאִינוּ תְּשׁוּעַת עוֹלָמִים,
נִזְקְפָה קוֹמָתֵנוּ דּוֹר גְּאוּלִים.
They fought like iron, the beloved brave ones,
The gentle souls, guarding from the oppressor,
Due to their courage, we have witnessed salvation of worlds,
Our stature was straightened, in a generation of redemption.
בַּיּוֹם בּוֹ נִטְמְאָה נַחֲלָתֵנוּ,
הֻתְּרָה לְפִרְסוּם גְּבוּרַת עַמֵּנוּ,
נַפְשָׁם בְּכַפָּם מוֹסְרִים גִּבּוֹרֵינוּ,
אָבִינוּ מַלְכֵּנוּ נְקֹם נִקְמַת אַחֵינוּ!
On the day our inheritance was defiled,
The bravery of our people was released for publication,
Our courageous ones give up their souls in their palms,
Our Father, Our King, avenge the vengeance of our brothers.
עַל שִׁמְךָ הַגָּדוֹל נִקְרָא שְׁמֵנוּ,
זוֹכֵר וּמַזְכִּיר בְּרִית אֲבוֹתֵינוּ,
מִצָּפוֹן וּמִדָּרוֹם עוֹמְדִים לְכַלּוֹתֵנוּ,
וּבְרִיתְךָ עוֹמֶדֶת לָנוּ בְּאַרְצֵנוּ.
By Your Great Name we are called,
The One Who remembers and mentions the covenant of our forefathers,
From north and south they rise up to destroy us,
But Your covenant remains steadfast for us in our land.
עָרִיצֵי פָּרַס יָזְמוּ עֲלִילוֹת,
מַטָּחִים שָׁלְחוּ לְנוֹשְׂאֵי תְּפִלּוֹת,
סְפוּנִים יָשְׁבוּ וְעֵינֵיהֶם מְיַחֲלוֹת,
אֶת נִסֶּיךָ רָאוּ – נוֹרָא תְּהִלּוֹת.
The dictators of Persia initiated plots,
They sent barrages against those who raised a prayer,
They sat in shelters, their eyes hoping,
They saw Your miracles, the Awesome One of praise.
כַּנְפֵי רוּחַ, כַּנְפֵי נְשָׁרִים,
רָאוֹ רָאִינוּ בְּרַעֲיוֹת חַיָּלִים,
הוֹרִים וִילָדִים אֶת יַקִּירֵיהֶם מְקַבְּרִים,
חַזְּקֵם וְאַמְּצֵם עֲדַת אַבִּירִים
The wings of spirit, the wings of eagles,
We have seen soldiers’ wives,
Parents and children bury their loved ones,
Strengthen and fortify them, the congregation of heroes.
גַּלֵּי שִׂנְאָה שׁוֹטְפִים עוֹלָמֶךָ,
שׁוֹצְפִים צוֹרְרִים עַל מַקְדִּישֵׁי שְׁמֶךָ,
רוֹדְפִים אֶת שְׁלוּחֶיךָ נוֹשְׂאֵי דְּגָלֶיךָ,
בְּאַהֲבָה יְהִי נָא עָלֵינוּ דִּלּוּגֶיךָ.
Waves of hate engulf Your world,
Oppressors swarm over those who sanctify Your name,
They chase Your messengers, those who carry Your flag,
May You skip over us with love.
הָשֵׁב חֲטוּפִים, קְרָא דְּרוֹר לַשְּׁבוּיִים,
נְטַע עֲקוּרִים בְּאַהֲבַת נְצָחִים,
שַׁקֵּם פְּצוּעִים רוֹמֵם נִדְכָּאִים,
נַהֵל עֲדָתְךָ בְּחֶסֶד וּבְרַחֲמִים.
Return the hostages, call for freedom for those in captivity,
Plant those who have been uprooted with everlasting love,
Rehabilitate the wounded, raise up the depressed,
Lead Your congregation with kindness and mercy.
מוֹדִים אֲנַחְנוּ לָךְ עַל מְדִינָתֵנוּ,
עַל גְּאֻלָּתֵנוּ וְעַל פְּדוּת נַפְשֵׁנוּ,
מְאֻחָדִים תּוֹלִיכֵנוּ קוֹמְמִיּוּת בְּאַרְצֵנוּ,
הָחֵשׁ בֶּן דָּוִד מְשִׁיחַ צִדְקֵנוּ.
We give thanks to You for our State,
And for our redemption and the salvation of our soul,
United lead us upright in our land,
Hasten the son of David, our righteous Mashiach.
Thanks for sharing this
A lot of these have been written this year. Here is a compilation of them (contact itshakliman at gee mail dot com for a copy after the link expires).
https://www.sendbig.com/view-files/?Id=d704f992-04f1-d5da-4e0b-cca40639c88c
Thanks! Although none of them spoke to me quite as strongly as this one...
Rabbi Slifkin, thank you for going to this lecture and for giving voice to those of us who share your perspective. You truly did a huge service for עם ישראל.
"and repeating that nobody should ever take spiritual risk"
I think the parsha of Eishes Yefas Toar seems to contradict that point. Not only does the Torah acknowledge the spiritual risk of a soldier engaging with a non-Jewish women, it even creates allowances knowing that the issur would be too difficult for the soldiers. The Torah does not give this an excuse to not serve, it's a given that everyone needs to serve despite the risks, and the Torah even works with the soldiers on dealing with those risks.
Another proof:
ויספו השטרים לדבר אל העם וגו׳״, רבי עקיבא אומר: ״הירא ורך הלבב״ — כמשמעו, שאינו יכול לעמוד בקשרי המלחמה ולראות חרב שלופה. רבי יוסי הגלילי אומר: ״הירא ורך הלבב״ — זהו המתיירא מן העבירות שבידו, לפיכך תלתה לו התורה את כל אלו, שיחזור בגללן.
MISHNA: The mishna continues its discussion of the speech given before battle. “And the officers shall speak further to the people, and they shall say: What man is there that is fearful and fainthearted? Let him go and return unto his house” (Deuteronomy 20:8). Rabbi Akiva says: “That is fearful and fainthearted” is to be understood as it indicates, that the man is unable to stand in the battle ranks and to see a drawn sword because it will terrify him. Rabbi Yosei HaGelili says: “That is fearful and fainthearted”; this is one who is afraid because of the sins that he has; he, too, returns. Therefore, the Torah provided him with all these additional reasons for exemption from the army so he can ascribe his leaving to one of them. In this way, the sinner may leave the ranks without having to publicly acknowledge that he is a sinner.
https://www.sefaria.org.il/Sotah.44a.11?lang=bi&p2=Mishneh_Torah%2C_Kings_and_Wars.7.15&lang2=bi
The rambam doesn't pasken according to R' yosi hagelili. So even sinners, who are afraid of the impact of their sins, must serve
And that's in a מלחמת רשות.
I appreciate your "shtikel Torah" but what does this have to do with the spiritual risk being discussed? Isn't this talking about someone who is scared that the sins he already did will act against him and he'll be punished for them? The spiritual risk being discussed here is that the soldier will be enticed to lose his way in religion. Seems to me to be totally different
Ouch
I am proud to say that I know that hesder student too! How? Because he was the medic for the Shlav Bet unit I just did basic training with. If he weren't interrupted by the Rav so much, he might have informed the Rav that the Shlav Bet unit had numerous accommodations for chareidi soldiers (explicit allowance to change words of hatikva, zero interactions with women, mehadrin food (including Badatz double wrapped for those who wouldn't eat Landau, Machpud, etc).
In fact, though it is not yet public, the army has assigned a team to build an entire base that will be religious/charedi from start to finish, no women on base, all mehadrin food, a mikveh, and more.
Yasher Koach to T.R. and R. Slifkin for showing up and asking the hard questions respectfully.
Fascinatingly, here is a (characteristically thoughtful) piece by R. Yehoshua Pfeffer (Note: It was published on Oct. 6th!) where he quotes R. Neugroschel's philosophy on how to speak on this subject to secular audiences.
https://iyun.org.il/en/sedersheni/making-sense-common-again/
Rabbi Aaron Lichtenstein also wrote about the virtues of common sense vs. yeshivish sophistry.
Rabbi Pfeffer is always worth reading.
I think that the Rabbi missed a great opportunity. The Hesder student was asking very legitimate questions. The Rabbi could have used the opportunity to rouse the congretion to some genuine hakarat hatov - to share with the sorrow and pain of the non-Haredi population.
Unfortunately, the Haredi community is in reality allergic to "hakarat hatov" to the non-Haredi. To express any such gratitude would be to admit a vulnerabilty in depending on others to defend them. The Haredi way of life demands that they believe in the unadulterated idealism of their lifestyle choices. I think that is what the Rabbi was hinting at when he claimed that the Haredi lifestyle is by definition ethical and quoted (or misquoted) some sources. A more honest approach is to scoff at the suggestion of gratitude towards the non-Haredi (as some Haredi Rabbis have famously done). This Rabbi wants to give lip service to hakarat haTov (because it sounds nice), but won't actually encourage any of his followers to SHOW hakarat haTov by actually DOING something.
"This Rabbi wants to give lip service to hakarat haTov (because it sounds nice), but won't actually encourage any of his followers to SHOW hakarat haTov by actually DOING something." You nailed it.
There's a story from the Olympic Games in Ancient Greece- an old man came into the stadium and there were no seats. A young Spartan got up and offered him his seat. Some young Athenians sitting nearby saw this and applauded the Spartan. The old man turned to them and said, "Athenians *know* what the right thing to do is. Spartans *do* it!"
Wow, I was very impressed by Rabbi Neugroschel. He answered the hesder student and you very well. Thank you Rabbi Slifkin!
His sources were good, and he was right that your question was irrelevant. He was talking about the people actually risking their lives in war, not the other burdens of war. The response "זה לא ציבור!!!!!!!" is irrelevant.
How on earth is it irrelevant? Dati leumi society is one in which the entire community is willing collectively to make the sacrifices required, including risking lives. The charedi community is the exact opposite - the entire community refuses this. I can assure you that if the entire city of Haifa said that their entire population will only serve in the army in non-combat and non-demanding roles, there would be enormous resentment and legal action.
That's true that the Dati leumi is making a sacrifice by sending some of their youth to risk their lives, but risk to life itself is something that can only be undertaken by an individual. I'm not sure you're right about the theoretical Haifa example, it depends if they had a good reason to take on non-combat roles. For example, if they were more suited for intelligence roles. FWIW I don't think the serious Dati learners should be serving.
"risk to life itself is something that can only be undertaken by an individual."
Assuming that you are correct- and of course you are not, that's what "draft" means- just leaves you in worse shape, as you are essentially saying that dati leumi people are far more willing to be moser nefesh than charedi ones. What does that say about the charedi world and values?
"I'm not sure you're right about the theoretical Haifa example, it depends if they had a good reason to take on non-combat roles. For example, if they were more suited for intelligence roles."
An entire city is not going to be suited to one thing more than another. Nor is an entire community, merely by dint of their choice of headgear. The example is nearly perfect.
"FWIW I don't think the serious Dati learners should be serving."
How inconvenient for you that they choose to do so, then. I guess Hashem will add one more person to the Yosef-Hillel-Rebbe story: "I couldn't serve because I was such a serious learner!" "Well, here is a dati leumi soldier who was a serious learner."
"What does that say about the charedi world and values?"
It says that they value Torah more.
"An entire city is not going to be suited to one thing more than another."
You just decided that.
"Well, here is a dati leumi soldier who was a serious learner."
And he should be in the Bais Medrash, not the army. He, and those who misguided him, will be brought to din for that decision.
I’m sorry. Brought to din for risking his life to protect klal yisroel, including those in Yeshivos? Are you serious?
"It says that they value Torah more."
That's what the Chassidim HaRishonim who refused to fight on Shabbat said about the Maccabim. Look it up.
"You just decided that."
Human nature decided that. Here's a shocker for you: Not every person who wears a black hat is an intellectual genius. "Lake Woebegone, where all the children are above-average" is a *joke*. If they ever had to take actual tests, a lot of charedim would be in for a shock.
"And he should be in the Bais Medrash, not the army. He, and those who misguided him, will be brought to din for that decision."
Hamas would be very happy to hear your view.
Fluffy holds up the high standards of the beit midrash by staying online all day instead.
"Trollin', trollin', trollin'/Keep those put-downs rollin'..."
"His sources were good,"
Please provide examples.
Rabbi Slifkin cited examples, and did not have compelling responses.
Exactly, Israel desperately needs soldiers with attacks on two fronts and Iran. My daughter serving in a combat unit was supposed to finish in September but now must immediately do miluim for the next four months. I am very scared that if this Haredi nonsense and chillul HaShem continues, the whole of Israel, yes including the Haredim, will share the fate of Kibbutz Beri.
If the ultra-Orthodox rule that there is an obligation to go to war because Jews are attacked for killing and rape, and if in their opinion this involves anti-Orthodox frameworks in the IDF, why did not one of all the ultra-Orthodox leaders turn to the IDF with the demand, open up IDF frameworks with a thousand demands...? No one turned. Conclusion: Their argument, that they want to enlist but that the IDF is not prepared for the ultra-Orthodox, is 100% false.
There is an idea that opening negotiations is a loser's game. Once the government gets them to participate, then they'll suck them in and renege on their earlier promises. Look at what they did to the Dati Leumi studying for a year or two prior to the army. They decided to cut their studies short because of the emergency.
This is simply a lie; The IDF never promised the HESDER guys that in time of war, they would not be drafted. The opposite is true; all HAHEDSDER guys were drafted so that, in time of war, they could conduct a mitzvah war.
Some history from a few weeks ago! The one who informed the Knesset that they should vote on a law for HeSeder boys who will continue to serve, is the ultra-orthodox minister Porush! why? Because a week later the same minister introduced a law that completely exempts any ultra-Orthodox from serving in the IDF. So, Your "loser's game who suck them in and remege on their early promises" are the Haredim in the government and Knesset, their Rabonim and Admorim who rule their votes in the Knesset!!!
You are 100% right. The IDF promised the Hesder students X months of study. Now the HAMAS and Hizbollah are coming to murder them and the IDF will keep its promise: keep studying. Whoever will kill you, it is their fault! Not we who kept our promise! Don't take arms to protect you!
There isn't much point in squabbling with me about it. If the yeshiva bochurim would come to me for guidance (let's fantasize here a bit), then I would encourage them to share the burden and allow the Dati Leumi students to complete their alloted time in the Beit Midrash.
On the other hand I'm not afraid to point out that the Haredi community is not wrong to not trust the government.
Then let them not join the government and refuse its subsidies….hypocrites.
I believe we're overlooking the fact that the Charedi way of life is not only causing significant issues in Israel but is also creating tremendous challenges in the diaspora. A considerable amount of resources are being funneled to 'Yissachar,' leaving 'Zevulun' struggling to sustain itself, which in many instances is leading to its collapse. Frum (and ironically many of them charedi) Jewish schools and institutions worldwide are finding it difficult to pay teachers, security guards, and other essential staff because so much of our communal maaserot are being directed to yeshivas in Israel. Unfortunately, the local communities are so naive that they actually buy into this. The local rabbanim wouldn't dare challenge the 'gedolim,' and the wealthy are showered with brachot and rabbinic attention, believing they are saving Torah in our times. I don't entirely blame those who support these rabbis, as they genuinely believe this is the Torah way and feel obligated to follow their rabbis. Moreover, even if you prove to them that they are mistaken, they would argue that we simply don't understand the greatness of the gedolim and therefore must be wrong. Furthermore, they believe that even if the gedolim were mistaken, we would still have to follow them, as that's the Torah way. In many respects, the Charedi world is like Reform Judaism from the opposite direction. Both are, in essence, tinokot shenishbu who are causing irreversible damage and destruction. At least all this makes it easier to connect with Tisha B'av
As a Kollel yungerman, I don't agree that a considerable amount of resources are being funneled to 'Yissachar,'. Rather a considerable amount of resources are being funneled
to propping up institutions that hardly benefit anyone under the illusion that it being funneled to 'Yissachar,'.
To clarify.
I am not referring to money distributed in Israel. I know nothing about that. I also am not claiming that anyone is actually stealing the money, but rather that money is distributed in a way that does not benefit yungeleit or Torah, but merely benefits the institutions
They are stealing. Time and lives from those who serve.
Huh?!
The heads of American institutions.
Besides, as I've pointed out many times on this blog, the ones who causes today's crisis are those who did not grow demographically and the ones who are solving at are those who are growing demographically.
Should I post a list of threads where I discussed it.
You can also look here https://nonzionism.substack.com/p/why-is-israel-fertile
https://nonzionism.substack.com/p/the-basic-problem-with-zionism
They have solved nothing. They have increased hate, and chillul HaShem. Nothing else.
Haha!
Sounds like a perfect description of this blog!
Unfortunately very telling that he refused to address your question - that would, of course, be acknowledging their double standard
Headlines which is much more honest about these types of issues addressed this issue last week. Rabbi Pfeffer who is a broad minded haredi Rav has a fascinating take on the issue. You can listen here. https://overcast.fm/+AAtT_kDsMmY/29:21
Basically he said that it’s not a halachic issue but it’s a cultural one and the charedi world is very afraid of what could happen in the army and the charedi world is very conservative. It’s a very worthwhile listen IMHO.
This does not appear to reflect well on either Ra Neugroschel or his arguments, and I hope this discussion continues.
It's not clear to me why Rav Neugroschel came to talk about these iasues, especially now, 10 months into a particularly painful war, and to this particular audience, or at least as Neugroschel perceived it.
They came for chizuk. They're feeling guilty and want someone to make them feel better.
That's quite the assumption.
I was there, I didn't come because I was feeling guilty and wanted someone to make me feel better.
I see a lot of assumptions and projections going on here, it's insulting and ignorant.
It’s not a gray area. What a bunch of dodgers. My nephew is as frum and halachic as any of you and has been called up twice and just got out of Gaza. He has 4 kids including a baby. Quit whining and start acting like you care about the future of your country. You are failing every test you are getting. Dismal failures.
Yes, you are…you are insulting our intelligence and you are being deliberately obtuse and ignorant of the actual facts..
Why did you attend?
Because I have been working through this "sugya" for quite a while trying to determine what I feel is the most correct approach. I see merit in some arguments on both sides and I was hoping to hear a well thought out and well presented analysis of the chareidi side (which I assumed was the side he would be representing)
Great.
Did the Rabbi indeed present the Haredi side? What were his best arguments?
I personally did not find it as comprehensive as I was hoping for. As Natan pointed out, it was pretty thin on sources and explanation.
That being said, I've come to realize in general how futile "sources" are when dealing with a sensitive, gray halachic/hashkafic issue (I hope we can agree that it is a gray area due to all the variables involved). For every source someone can bring there are opposing sources and differing interpretations and applications.
In that light, the thing that did make a strong impression on me was his impressive list of firsthand experiences with big people from multiple sectors, including chareidi gedolim, DL gedolim, high-ups in the army, people in the knesset.
So in the sense of "מעשה רב" it did feel like his words carried a lot of weight when he says something like the top DL rabbanim agree that yeshiva boys should not be in the army.
Obviously this needs to be discussed more in detail and I would love it if there was a respectable correspondence between him and someone from the opposite side really going through the issues and getting to the bottom of where exactly the disagreement(s) exist.
Finally, I got the impression from him that he is a caring individual and is not just looking to explain away something he doesn't believe to be true. He appears genuine in his approach and truly believes in it.
It's so nice that you have the (self-given) freedom to "work through this sugya."
I was half expecting someone to make this comment.
It probably didn't occur to you that I'm referring to the fact that I have a son going into 6th grade and we will very soon have to pretty much definitively decide which track he will go on. Do you feel it's inappropriate to fully think it through before making this decision?
There is no merit whatsoever to avoid service and let other risk alone.
As Ring Lardner says, "Shut up," he explained.
At this point after 10 months of war and opponents of Israel on all sides, the very fact that Charedim are continuing in acting like they have a halachic reason to not serve when others have been called up twice is just a gross and selfish act. It is not sustainable and honestly it makes this segment of society appear to be ridiculous and selfish.
All the condescending attitude towards anyone who is not ultra-Orthodox; Any reliance on legends for the ruling of Halacha - and the Halacha is that there are no rulings based on legends!; Any reliance on halachic rulings given 100 years ago and one should not judge except what his eyes see now!; Relying on pashkevils without any halachic basis; The prohibition of some of their "rabbis" to reveal any emotion and commandment of visiting the sick and comforting the bereaved of soldiers, means one simple thing: they do not feel themselves part of the people of Israel. So, in their opinion, they are sinners? In their opinion, not at all! Because they claim that we are not Israel in the flesh and in the spirit. We are EREV RAV, AMALEK, MINIM, we are indeed Israel in the flesh, but they are Israel in the spirit and flesh. Note the striking similarity with HAMINIM's claim to this day. Open any Christian book and you will find
R. Neugerschol hit the nail on the head. Our security depends upon our observance of the mitzvot the first and foremost being that we treat eachother properly and not on the number of soldiers in the IDF.
Yes, we must treat each properly. Not selfishly demand that others sacrifice everything for us and we sacrifice nothing for them.
I remember in one of his drashot on the subject he said that If being in the army causes a single person to stop keeping mitzvot - then this causes more harm than downing an enemy plane (or killing x number of terrorists these days) can bring good.
And was he discounting the mitzvah of saving lives?
The Torah's mitzvah of Yefas Toar shows that the Torah recognizes that army service can potentially be spiritually harmful.
And did he have a source for this extreme claim? In any case, he obviously doesn't really believe it. By the way, if you have a link to a recording of him saying this, it would be helpful.
R Dov Landau Flashback: https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/tzaddik-or-mazzik
I would have asked this speaker about this!