One of your better post. I know exactly what you feel when you say "Am I just banging my head against a wall". When Covid was running rampant and the Charedi community lost 4 times as many as other communities, I was writing, screaming , arguing and trying to show as each new excuse came out. why it was a fallacy and it will only kill more of us. I was practically begging - please try to save others, and there are many that are vulnerable.
One day a better known highly ranked doctor in my neighborhood was watching me argue during a kiddish with practically the entire shul. Later, he grabbed my arm and explained to me, these people know exactly what the deal is, the risks , and the deaths, They just wont do anything to accommodate the practices of the medical community that is trying to combat the deaths. He asked - what don't you understand?? They are basically saying - we are not going to take precautions. FULL STOP
Here we are all facing the same result -- the Charedim are not going to serve!!! The 20 excuses they give are just smoke screens to get out of it. No matter, should you write 5 articles a day showing where they are wrong - it is just not happening.
So why continue to write??
It is for all the people - that feel the frustration, feel the pain of the others that serve, and feel the suffering of the families where the father wont come back .
So please keep up your good work, not for the charedim sake to take on some burden , as they are raised to hoodwink the rest of society, just like here in America. However, take comfort, that all the rational good people out there will feel a little better, knowing and watching that there is someone, an eloquent writer, that keeps up the arguments and writings which calls out these draft dodgers.
To us you are a comfort and our spokesperson, We are all looking to you.
May Hashem Bless and Reward you and your family for the good things you do by posting these articles.
This site is always better with you as a subscriber!
Since we MO seem to lionize חרדים, the lines blur. For example, if one views the son of one of the last presidents of Rabbi Goldberg’s shul, one could easily confuse him as a חרדי soldier.
There are, unfortunately, very few truly חרדי soldiers, and many, nebach, are treated as ‘lone soldiers’ because their family rejects them, as they cannot be ‘frum’ and wear an army uniform. Sad.
They generally send out their ‘problem’ kids; the same ones they allow to marry out of their fold (or ‘allowed’ to attend a secular university)
Now that I think about it, their drop off rate and the percentage of גיוס are eerily similar. The last גיוס was an embarrassing 10% of the total.
You have made this point before regarding American Chareidim. The thing you have to always remember is that Americans - Chareidim and Modern Orthodox - have no skin in the game (unless their child is a lone soldier). Their ENTIRE contribution is thoughts and prayers (and demonstrations and op-eds and occasional barbeque visits). It is no wonder that their concept of Achdus falls short of involvement. They aren't - and many will be pained to hear this - actually involved.
They may feel involved or consider themselves involved or wish to be involved. But until they get on that Nefesh B'Nefesh plane, they aren't.
I noticed this opinion piece on JPost, where the author argues that he sees more and more ultra-Orthodox serving in the army, and that any external pressure from the government or the courts will be counterproductive.
On the other hand, the author doesn't address Rabbi Slifkin's argument: In times such as these, where Israel is confronted with a 7-front attack from expressly genocidal enemies, the ultra-Orthodox community should automatically feel an obligation to contribute to the war effort. It shouldn't have to be the Knesset or the Israeli Supreme Court that says that Charedim have to go to the army.
Rabbi Slifkin, it's been a long time since we corresponded. Did you end up using my pictures for your book? Your post couldn't have come at a better time. I just completed a series of sci-fi art depicting Israelis and chareidim coexisting in achdus and harmony. Hopefully we can all take inspiration from these heartening images and work together to build a better future.
Sorry to nitpick, but I see that you referred to Nosei B’Ol Chaveiro, which I think should be Nosei B’Ol IM Chaveiro. The former sounds like you’re lazing around while others take your burden, whereas I believe the correct phrase means that we are working TOGETHER.
The shorthand here may be a symptom of how this has been hijacked…
Most people understand that it's impractical to ask chareidim to serve, at least at this point, so we will have to do with achdus without action. Or without the actions you are demanding. Achdus doesn't mean only if you do something to benefit me.
Why is one's group impracticability redder than another?
" so we will have to do with achdus without action."
Would that non-action achdus work in the other direction? Praying and fasting that cutbacks in the daycare subsidies will have no detrimental financial effect?
Impractical doesn't mean hard, it means practically unfeasible. In the same way it's impractical to demand tens of thousands of Jews in the US to make immediate aliyah so that they can serve. And it's impractical to suggest that all the Jews in EY make yeridah to other countries so that they won't have to serve. In the same way, it's impractical to demand chareidim to overturn their entire society to serve.
If they truly cared more, they would be making a greater effort to find ways to connect and contribute. I am Haredi and deeply value our way of life, but I believe there's a certain level of staticity that could be helped along if more people knew what others were going through and cared deeply. If they truly understood the hardships and challenges faced by their fellow Jews, they would want to reach out, get involved, and make a difference!
When we close ourselves off from the experiences of others, we lose out on an essential part of what it means to be part of the Jewish people. But if more Haredim were exposed to the stories and struggles of others, it would inspire a sense of empathy and a desire to support. A deeper connection to one another would not only strengthen our community but also reflect the compassionate values at the heart of the Torah.
" it's impractical to demand tens of thousands of Jews in the US to make immediate aliyah so that they can serve."
I assume you mean that it's the עלייה that impractical, not the demand thereof.
" In the same way..."
It's not the same. The impracticalities, to the extent they exist are not the same. They are different.
But none of this addresses my question. You said " it's impractical to ask chareidim to serve." And I asked you why are their difficulties in serving more "redder" than others? You answered something about עלייה and ירידה, which is not relevant.
It's totally relevant. Just think about it for more than five seconds. For the same reason why normal people understand that, aliyah and yeridah are impractical, they should also understand that chareidim serving en masse is impractical. Far more so. The only reason they don't understand that is because they think chareidi chinuch practice and ideology is something easily dispensed with or stepped around- on its own terms, even without reference to the army issue. As long as they maintain that illusion, they will doom themselves to endless frustration.
Yeah it was really impractical that God asked Abraham to leave his family, his home, his birthplace and just wander to a place where God points him….God is like so unreasonable sometimes…..
It is not impractical to ask chareidim to serve. It's impractical to expect all 18-24 boys to leave Yeshiva at once and join the IDF all at once, but that doesn't mean the transition can't start now.
Have you tried speaking to Rav Hirsh about that? Because the army has been talking to him about that.
"✅ שילה פריד: בכירי צה"ל צברו בשנה האחרונה שעות רבות אצל המנהיג החרדי הרב הירש. הרב מקשיב להם היטב, יורד לעומק העניין, קורא דו"חות ומסמכים, מבין את הצורך הצבאי בכוח אדם, אבל תמיד בסוף השיחה שואל "האם אתם רשאים להגיע לסיכום עם הישיבות, או שהמילה האחרונה בכלל של הדרג המשפטי?" שם זה נתקע ."
….so we don’t need more soldiers? Are all those Dati L’eumi stories ‘fake news’ and all those guys never died and are back to work with their families??
The yeshivas need to be torn down and moved to the borders so you can better protect us.
Tearing down yeshivas was hyperbole - seems that you’re incapable of knowing the difference. Nobody wants to tear down yeshivas. But I hope that the parasitical chareidi yeshivas systematically self-disintegrate when the government ceases the subsidy and sustenance of the chareidi freeloaders.
Israeli Dati and Chiloni society have had it with their entitled society.
I think you're confusing two things: bad midos + "krum," selfish thinking on the one hand and a lack of achdus on the other. You can have strong achdus between communities even when one has developed certain bad midos and self-congratulating beliefs, failing at lo saamod and nosei b'ol, etc, and the other has not. And that achdus can go both ways.
Sadly, much of the haredi community is lousy at achdus but that's no excuse for the rest of us. Achdus means feeling like close family, seeing the good in each other and supporting each other. It means true respect, constructive criticism and hoping things work out for them the right way in the path they chose. And it means accepting and welcoming when others reach out to you that way, misguided as they may be.
I'm sorry but you are just as lousy at this as many charedim.
Who's the one creating the lack of achdus when one son doesn't come visit the sick father? That son, or the others resenting his bad middos? They can love him but still be resentful and blame him for the disunity in the family. Even if he isn't coming because of his learning and it's efsher a'y acherim etc., as a son and brother he should feel like he wants to come!
My comment has nothing to do with who’s to blame. Of course the charedim are to blame. Just like you're to blame for me hitting you if you keep poking me and pulling my hair, or whatever. It doesn't mean I'm right to hit you. In your example, there does not have to be disunity in the family just because of that son. A good family maintains unity despite having a negative opinion of his behavior.
I heard a drasha a few days ago from a chareidi rav who wanted to bring out from the Avraham saving Lot story that it's important that we are very aware of the pain and suffering of our brothers and we need to do everything in our power to help them out. Ironically, Avraham went to war to help him, whereas this Rav stopped way short of suggesting we all join the army and said something like we should be improving our avodas Hashem on their behalf.
The problem is for people like this rav, joining the army (for chareidim) is simply not an option at this point (with no change in sight as well), so all we can really do are things that this blog would understandably say is not actual achdus.
That's where there's a big disconnect in terms of seeing these things as achdus or not. Like in your example with your father a"h, if everyone was on the same page that a sibling absolutely was unable to take a shift for whatever reason, then I imagine you'd agree that his/her tehillim etc would be a show of achdus.
It's the fundamental disagreement of the dati community that chareidim should be joining them in the army that leads to their feeling that anything short of that is not true achdus. That is very easy to understand.
But for those who accept the chareidi position, it's not difficult or a contradiction at all to view these actions as real achdus.
Certainly, keep up the good work, and don't be discouraged by the naysayers—there will always be critics, but your efforts matter. People need to hear about the lives and struggles of their fellow Jews. Just as Moshe "went out and saw their burdens" (וַיֵּצֵא מֹשֶׁה וַיַּרְא בְּסִבְלֹתָם), this is not only a moment of observing but of truly connecting, empathizing, and even stepping in to help. The act of recognizing others’ hardships and, when possible, offering tangible support, is a cornerstone of Jewish values.
Haredim, too, should be encouraged to feel and demonstrate a deeper connection to the lives and challenges of their brethren. In acknowledging and showing compassion for others, we fortify our collective bond, creating unity and strength within our communities. This empathy and action reflect the essence of who we are as a people, living the values that bind us and inspire future generations to do the same.
"I don’t want tens of thousands of charedi young men to be learning in yeshiva as a merit for my son - I want them to be helping him with the job of actively protecting the nation, so that he can spend more time being in yeshiva and being safe."
I like this post a lot. It comes off as feeling, hurting, and even loving. These types of posts, keep up!
One of your better post. I know exactly what you feel when you say "Am I just banging my head against a wall". When Covid was running rampant and the Charedi community lost 4 times as many as other communities, I was writing, screaming , arguing and trying to show as each new excuse came out. why it was a fallacy and it will only kill more of us. I was practically begging - please try to save others, and there are many that are vulnerable.
One day a better known highly ranked doctor in my neighborhood was watching me argue during a kiddish with practically the entire shul. Later, he grabbed my arm and explained to me, these people know exactly what the deal is, the risks , and the deaths, They just wont do anything to accommodate the practices of the medical community that is trying to combat the deaths. He asked - what don't you understand?? They are basically saying - we are not going to take precautions. FULL STOP
Here we are all facing the same result -- the Charedim are not going to serve!!! The 20 excuses they give are just smoke screens to get out of it. No matter, should you write 5 articles a day showing where they are wrong - it is just not happening.
So why continue to write??
It is for all the people - that feel the frustration, feel the pain of the others that serve, and feel the suffering of the families where the father wont come back .
So please keep up your good work, not for the charedim sake to take on some burden , as they are raised to hoodwink the rest of society, just like here in America. However, take comfort, that all the rational good people out there will feel a little better, knowing and watching that there is someone, an eloquent writer, that keeps up the arguments and writings which calls out these draft dodgers.
To us you are a comfort and our spokesperson, We are all looking to you.
May Hashem Bless and Reward you and your family for the good things you do by posting these articles.
Rabbi, Please keep pressing this topic even harder. Eventually things are going to have to change. Maybe profile haredim who are serving.
This site is always better with you as a subscriber!
Since we MO seem to lionize חרדים, the lines blur. For example, if one views the son of one of the last presidents of Rabbi Goldberg’s shul, one could easily confuse him as a חרדי soldier.
There are, unfortunately, very few truly חרדי soldiers, and many, nebach, are treated as ‘lone soldiers’ because their family rejects them, as they cannot be ‘frum’ and wear an army uniform. Sad.
They generally send out their ‘problem’ kids; the same ones they allow to marry out of their fold (or ‘allowed’ to attend a secular university)
Now that I think about it, their drop off rate and the percentage of גיוס are eerily similar. The last גיוס was an embarrassing 10% of the total.
All good points. However.
You have made this point before regarding American Chareidim. The thing you have to always remember is that Americans - Chareidim and Modern Orthodox - have no skin in the game (unless their child is a lone soldier). Their ENTIRE contribution is thoughts and prayers (and demonstrations and op-eds and occasional barbeque visits). It is no wonder that their concept of Achdus falls short of involvement. They aren't - and many will be pained to hear this - actually involved.
They may feel involved or consider themselves involved or wish to be involved. But until they get on that Nefesh B'Nefesh plane, they aren't.
I noticed this opinion piece on JPost, where the author argues that he sees more and more ultra-Orthodox serving in the army, and that any external pressure from the government or the courts will be counterproductive.
https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-827887?dicbo=v2-KB4L9NY
On the other hand, the author doesn't address Rabbi Slifkin's argument: In times such as these, where Israel is confronted with a 7-front attack from expressly genocidal enemies, the ultra-Orthodox community should automatically feel an obligation to contribute to the war effort. It shouldn't have to be the Knesset or the Israeli Supreme Court that says that Charedim have to go to the army.
Rabbi Slifkin, it's been a long time since we corresponded. Did you end up using my pictures for your book? Your post couldn't have come at a better time. I just completed a series of sci-fi art depicting Israelis and chareidim coexisting in achdus and harmony. Hopefully we can all take inspiration from these heartening images and work together to build a better future.
https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIG1.2O6qCCK4AEKX.jjb5HNI?pid=ImgGn
https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIG1.DkjLYClqgYkjx6NEIxpA?pid=ImgGn
https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIG2.hvMdrFdmTAAY3KOJWtEn?pid=ImgGn
https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIG4.J_TICUTuR_ZgdJZkH3gi?pid=ImgGn
https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIG2.issfmwLzZMMXqhiNpSgo?pid=ImgGn
Sorry to nitpick, but I see that you referred to Nosei B’Ol Chaveiro, which I think should be Nosei B’Ol IM Chaveiro. The former sounds like you’re lazing around while others take your burden, whereas I believe the correct phrase means that we are working TOGETHER.
The shorthand here may be a symptom of how this has been hijacked…
From America, I applaud you.
Most people understand that it's impractical to ask chareidim to serve, at least at this point, so we will have to do with achdus without action. Or without the actions you are demanding. Achdus doesn't mean only if you do something to benefit me.
It's impractical for anybody to serve.
Why is one's group impracticability redder than another?
" so we will have to do with achdus without action."
Would that non-action achdus work in the other direction? Praying and fasting that cutbacks in the daycare subsidies will have no detrimental financial effect?
Impractical doesn't mean hard, it means practically unfeasible. In the same way it's impractical to demand tens of thousands of Jews in the US to make immediate aliyah so that they can serve. And it's impractical to suggest that all the Jews in EY make yeridah to other countries so that they won't have to serve. In the same way, it's impractical to demand chareidim to overturn their entire society to serve.
If they truly cared more, they would be making a greater effort to find ways to connect and contribute. I am Haredi and deeply value our way of life, but I believe there's a certain level of staticity that could be helped along if more people knew what others were going through and cared deeply. If they truly understood the hardships and challenges faced by their fellow Jews, they would want to reach out, get involved, and make a difference!
When we close ourselves off from the experiences of others, we lose out on an essential part of what it means to be part of the Jewish people. But if more Haredim were exposed to the stories and struggles of others, it would inspire a sense of empathy and a desire to support. A deeper connection to one another would not only strengthen our community but also reflect the compassionate values at the heart of the Torah.
Agree 100%
" it's impractical to demand tens of thousands of Jews in the US to make immediate aliyah so that they can serve."
I assume you mean that it's the עלייה that impractical, not the demand thereof.
" In the same way..."
It's not the same. The impracticalities, to the extent they exist are not the same. They are different.
But none of this addresses my question. You said " it's impractical to ask chareidim to serve." And I asked you why are their difficulties in serving more "redder" than others? You answered something about עלייה and ירידה, which is not relevant.
It's totally relevant. Just think about it for more than five seconds. For the same reason why normal people understand that, aliyah and yeridah are impractical, they should also understand that chareidim serving en masse is impractical. Far more so. The only reason they don't understand that is because they think chareidi chinuch practice and ideology is something easily dispensed with or stepped around- on its own terms, even without reference to the army issue. As long as they maintain that illusion, they will doom themselves to endless frustration.
Yeah it was really impractical that God asked Abraham to leave his family, his home, his birthplace and just wander to a place where God points him….God is like so unreasonable sometimes…..
It is not impractical to ask chareidim to serve. It's impractical to expect all 18-24 boys to leave Yeshiva at once and join the IDF all at once, but that doesn't mean the transition can't start now.
Have you tried speaking to Rav Hirsh about that? Because the army has been talking to him about that.
"✅ שילה פריד: בכירי צה"ל צברו בשנה האחרונה שעות רבות אצל המנהיג החרדי הרב הירש. הרב מקשיב להם היטב, יורד לעומק העניין, קורא דו"חות ומסמכים, מבין את הצורך הצבאי בכוח אדם, אבל תמיד בסוף השיחה שואל "האם אתם רשאים להגיע לסיכום עם הישיבות, או שהמילה האחרונה בכלל של הדרג המשפטי?" שם זה נתקע ."
https://bshch.blogspot.com/2024/11/blog-post_123.html
….so we don’t need more soldiers? Are all those Dati L’eumi stories ‘fake news’ and all those guys never died and are back to work with their families??
The yeshivas need to be torn down and moved to the borders so you can better protect us.
And there you say the quiet part out loud. Regardless of the need for soldiers, the main thing for you guys is tearing down the yeshivos.
Actually, he kept the quiet part silent. It was rhetorical and implied by the phrase "so you can better protect us.".
And moving them to kfar Aza and Metullah , Golan height on the Syrian border. That way Toireh lernen can protect us!
@Azmaveth,
Tearing down yeshivas was hyperbole - seems that you’re incapable of knowing the difference. Nobody wants to tear down yeshivas. But I hope that the parasitical chareidi yeshivas systematically self-disintegrate when the government ceases the subsidy and sustenance of the chareidi freeloaders.
Israeli Dati and Chiloni society have had it with their entitled society.
'Serving' has a wide definition.
I think you're confusing two things: bad midos + "krum," selfish thinking on the one hand and a lack of achdus on the other. You can have strong achdus between communities even when one has developed certain bad midos and self-congratulating beliefs, failing at lo saamod and nosei b'ol, etc, and the other has not. And that achdus can go both ways.
Sadly, much of the haredi community is lousy at achdus but that's no excuse for the rest of us. Achdus means feeling like close family, seeing the good in each other and supporting each other. It means true respect, constructive criticism and hoping things work out for them the right way in the path they chose. And it means accepting and welcoming when others reach out to you that way, misguided as they may be.
I'm sorry but you are just as lousy at this as many charedim.
Who's the one creating the lack of achdus when one son doesn't come visit the sick father? That son, or the others resenting his bad middos? They can love him but still be resentful and blame him for the disunity in the family. Even if he isn't coming because of his learning and it's efsher a'y acherim etc., as a son and brother he should feel like he wants to come!
My comment has nothing to do with who’s to blame. Of course the charedim are to blame. Just like you're to blame for me hitting you if you keep poking me and pulling my hair, or whatever. It doesn't mean I'm right to hit you. In your example, there does not have to be disunity in the family just because of that son. A good family maintains unity despite having a negative opinion of his behavior.
(The son/brother analogy is very good Natan :)
Whatever anyone says, don't stop posting these. The truth is the truth, no matter who doesn't like it.
Look at the text of the "yom tefillah" being promulgated on various frum sites.
A day of Achdus
Where the most important issue is "betrayal of lomdei Torah around the world."
e.g., https://vinnews.com/2024/11/10/yom-tefillah-due-to-matzav-in-eretz-yisrael/#respond
The biggest issue is the fear that some people in the beis medrash will be drafted.
Someone MUST MUST MUST translate this amazing video into English subtitles
it is translated; you have to turn on the subtitles
I heard a drasha a few days ago from a chareidi rav who wanted to bring out from the Avraham saving Lot story that it's important that we are very aware of the pain and suffering of our brothers and we need to do everything in our power to help them out. Ironically, Avraham went to war to help him, whereas this Rav stopped way short of suggesting we all join the army and said something like we should be improving our avodas Hashem on their behalf.
The problem is for people like this rav, joining the army (for chareidim) is simply not an option at this point (with no change in sight as well), so all we can really do are things that this blog would understandably say is not actual achdus.
That's where there's a big disconnect in terms of seeing these things as achdus or not. Like in your example with your father a"h, if everyone was on the same page that a sibling absolutely was unable to take a shift for whatever reason, then I imagine you'd agree that his/her tehillim etc would be a show of achdus.
It's the fundamental disagreement of the dati community that chareidim should be joining them in the army that leads to their feeling that anything short of that is not true achdus. That is very easy to understand.
But for those who accept the chareidi position, it's not difficult or a contradiction at all to view these actions as real achdus.
Certainly, keep up the good work, and don't be discouraged by the naysayers—there will always be critics, but your efforts matter. People need to hear about the lives and struggles of their fellow Jews. Just as Moshe "went out and saw their burdens" (וַיֵּצֵא מֹשֶׁה וַיַּרְא בְּסִבְלֹתָם), this is not only a moment of observing but of truly connecting, empathizing, and even stepping in to help. The act of recognizing others’ hardships and, when possible, offering tangible support, is a cornerstone of Jewish values.
Haredim, too, should be encouraged to feel and demonstrate a deeper connection to the lives and challenges of their brethren. In acknowledging and showing compassion for others, we fortify our collective bond, creating unity and strength within our communities. This empathy and action reflect the essence of who we are as a people, living the values that bind us and inspire future generations to do the same.
"I don’t want tens of thousands of charedi young men to be learning in yeshiva as a merit for my son - I want them to be helping him with the job of actively protecting the nation, so that he can spend more time being in yeshiva and being safe."
BINGO!