284 Comments

I hate to see this blog becoming such a shit-show (pardon my language. I don't really have a better word to use). I understand that there are some Haredim who think that they are promoting God' work by commenting here, and maybe they feel like they are fighting a war with Rabbi Slifkin and his followers, but they don't see how sad they end up looking. I am not Haredi, but I truly understand them. I would've hoped coming here to see better representation. It ends up looking like we are only seeing the teenagers and young adults who actually have nothing better to do with their time.

There are people, who we are supposed to be looking at like brothers, who are dying protecting our other brothers. We should use this as a call for unity, Rabbi Slifkin included. Not be angry at a group we don't understand, or that we disagree with.

Meanwhile, my hope is that the two sides can join together and understand that we are not changing each other because each side has an entire worldview that it is entrenched in, and we can work together to appreciate each other's contributions.

That would include the Haredim appreciating the input of the army and its sacrifices, and appreciate that these sacrifices are coming solely through the other side. And for Rabbi Slifkin and his side to appreciate that there is a strong Mesorah for the way the Haredim are leading their lives, like it or not. Their side is also authentic Judaism, and we truly couldn't have survived as the nation of Torah without their single-minded focus, problems notwithstanding.

Once we do come together, perhaps we can be a model to the world of how two opposing sides of a political game, or of a war, can come to peace.

שלום לכל ישראל אמן

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" there is a strong Mesorah for the way the Haredim are leading their lives." Um, no there isn't, There is no mesorah for an entire community demanding to be supported by others for learning. There is no mesorah for an entire community to raise their children not to work for a living. There is no mesorah for an entire community to live in a Jewish sovereign state and declare themselves exempt from helping in a war.

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We can get into this if you wish. Firstly, I said problems notwithstanding. But the idea briefly is that the point of their culture is that there needs to be a single-minded focus on Torah in our nation. That is what the Yeshivah system is about. It was not meant to be that everyone should stay in this fortress of Torah forever, rather take the skills and use them even when going to work later on in life. Like the Rambam describes that even those who go to work spend a lot of their time learning. In today's environment it is very hard to live like that, but the Yeshivah system provides the ability to do so. What should happen next is that only the cream of the crop stay, which is not what happens practically, but that doesn't mean that the system is wrong, only that it needs reform from within.

It seems that you, who see problems, see nothing good of what they do. Your attitude is not correct. I would make the same case the other way, that your approach also has many problems - lack of proper appreciation for Torah being one of them - but what you need to do is reform, not change your whole system.

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author

Ok, so you're admitting that the approach is not based on mesorah, but rather a reaction to the challenges of modern society. Good.

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Not at all. You are reading me wrong Sir. The implementation may be reactionary but the ideology is not. Appreciating the Torah like they do is not new. And it may be true that the only way to keep up the ideology is through their method of implementation.

You are taking it too far as to think you can undermine their whole system. Instead we should take their message, an perhaps even their implementation and appreciate, while they take ours and appreciate and through that we will have the Issachar and the Zebulon working together instead of at opposition. And each side will then cool off to the other and the problems we all have with each other will disappear.

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The word 'approach' is key here. It's not the action, rather the approach. The approach of 'Torah above all' is the Mesorah. The practical ramifications depend on the circumstances.

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author

The mesorah is that Jews stopped learning Torah to fulfill their responsibilities.

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Nice snarky comeback.

Important matters are decided through the snark. No logic, knowledge, understanding, humility, hard work, or actual responsibility needed.

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How can you say its a reaction to modern society , they have had this approach for over 50 years.Now its just a significant more substantial chunk of society

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Dec 25, 2023·edited Dec 25, 2023

No. It all kicked off in the early eighties, actually. Before then, the vast majority of chareidim worked, fought, participated etc.

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The Chazon Ish started it long before then , there just weren't as many full time learners . as I said above.

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There is definitely no Mesorah for a secularist Jewish state in the land of Israel. Unless you count the warnings in the Torah about the destruction of such a society. Better be thankful for the chareidim and other religious people for giving you secularists the merit to survive!

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"There is definitely no Mesorah for..."

And that's the dilemma isn't it? There's no mesorah for any kind of Jewish state anywhere. I mean specifically, the kind of continuous traditions that inform other contemporary halachic questions. Basically, you have the phenomenon of the State and army that has appeared after centuries of halachic silence on issues of governance and security. You won't find a שו"ת on these issues, and you won't find a סימן in the שו"ע or טור. You may find some rare sources, perhaps something in a מדרש or cryptic אגדה, but not a clear uncontested unambiguous source that's going to make a posek's job easy.

That being said, you still haven't addressed RNS's point that "There is no mesorah for an entire community demanding to be supported by others for learning. There is no mesorah for an entire community to raise their children not to work for a living. There is no mesorah for an entire community to live in a Jewish sovereign state and declare themselves exempt from helping in a war. "

" secularist Jewish state in the land of Israel"

This is not true. The State may not be 100% halachic (but this may improve if UTJ is ousted), but it's not 100% secular either. And besides for a minority of parties, and part of the supreme court, it's not secularist either.

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I am not the biggest fan of UTJ, but can you tell me how the state would become more halachic without them?

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I was addressing his last point, which makes no sense, since there is no mesorah for a secularist "sovereign" Jewish state in the first place. His first two points show his typical amaratzus, sorry.

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" there is no mesorah for a secularist "sovereign" Jewish state"

The State is not secularist.

"I was addressing his last point"

What was his last point? Oh yes, that "There is no mesorah for an entire community to live in a Jewish sovereign state and declare themselves exempt from helping in a war. "

But you distorted his words and replaced "Jewish sovereign state" with " secularist Jewish state." Now, I'll infer from your words, that you believe Israel to be a "secularist Jewish state". That is a statement of fact, of actual circumstance. Now, you say there is no mesorah for such a circumstance. But the circumstance exists according to you. What does it mean for there to be a lack of a mesorah for a reality that can and does exist?

Then you write "is first two points show his typical amaratzus" His first two points were:

"There is no mesorah for an entire community demanding to be supported by others for learning. There is no mesorah for an entire community to raise their children not to work for a living."

You claim these two points are ignorant. But you haven't actually proven that claim by citing sources within the מסורה.

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"The State is not secularist."

The state is secularist.

"What does it mean for there to be a lack of a mesorah for a reality that can and does exist?"

Ask Slifkin, he was the one who started talking about the lack of mesorah for a reality that can and does exist.

"You claim these two points are ignorant. But you haven't actually proven that claim by citing sources within the מסורה."

They are ignorant because they show the person who says them has no clue what a mesorah is or what it means. It's like saying there is no mesorah for being a CPA, since CPAs didn't exist in the times of Chazal, and thinking you made a good point. Slifkin is that big of an am haaretz.

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What are you talking about? There's even a Mesorah for an *avoda zara worshipping* state in Israel. Menashe and Achav had a din melech, after all. Compared to some of the kings of Yehuda and Yisrael, compared to Herod and some of the Chashmonaim, Ben Gurion was practically a lamed-vav tzadik.

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Wait, are you serious, buddy? Wicked *Menashe* is your mesorah for secular Zionism?! 😂😂😂 Are you trying to push the Neturei Karta shitta now? You couldn't have made my point better! While we're at it, Nebuchadnezzar had the status of a king also, so he is a mesorah for Hamas. And there were a lot of kings who promoted Christianity, so there's a mesorah for that also. I guess merry Christmas to you again!

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Your indulgence in emojis and interrobangs are getting in the way of rational discussion. You brought up the point of a sinful gov't, and you implied there would be halachic consequences of living under a sinful government. Did the הלכות of מלחמת מצוה cease to apply during the reign of מנשה and אחאב? Does the regime of such kings suddenly allow the Torah faithful community demand support for their learning, and refrain from teaching their children a trade? And do such policies get cancelled once a good king takes power?

"And there were a lot of kings who promoted Christianity, so there's a mesorah for that also. "

Where does it say in the מסורה that living under such a king compels a community not to teach their children a trade?

Please try to follow your own train of thought. If you are changing the topic, let us know.

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I wasn't talking about the halachic consequences of living under a sinful government, which is its own discussion. I said that there is no mesorah for a secularist government, and the clueless guy who responded to me unbelievably thought that wicked Menashe represents some sort of mesorah.

Reading comprehension, dude.

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Let me introduce you to a novel concept: "Kal v'chomer." One day when you're old enough to say the whole siddur in the morning and not just the first pasuk in kriat shma, you'll come across it.

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Oh yes, let's just whip out random Talmud expressions that are completely irrelevant. I'll continue. Gezeirah shavah. Shnei kesuvim habaaim k'echad. Nat bar nat. Davar sheyesh lo matirim.

And you somehow think that this is a support for your unbelievable statement that Menashe represents some sort of mesorah. Your utter cluelessness about Judaism along with your bone-headed confidence is a very good representation of secular Zionism, I must say!

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Thanks for proving just how bitter you are. No one can demonstrate how obsessed and consumed you are about Charedim better than you yourself.

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author

If you think I'm bitter, you should speak to people whose kids are in combat.

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Yeah, I've spoken to several such people who are shtark religious and somehow they are not bitter at all. Only the secularists like yourself are bitter because of their inferiority complex. And they should feel inferior, deep down they know they are not practicing Jews and have no right to the Land in the first place.

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author

Inferiority complex. Right. No other conceivable reason why they are bitter.

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Very little resentment from those that serve! And as someone pointed out to me the other day, the rabble rousing comes primarily from Lapid and Lieberman, 2 idiots who never actually served. I added to his list a third idiot who also hasn't done anything other than hate-mongering. Guess who. Unless of course you count daughters taking polls as serving, that is.

[Oh and btw, Ime still wondering why we haven't seen almost a single name of the well over 100 fallen in Gaza, from Tel Aviv. I guess they must all be learning in Kollel!]

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Yes, why is it that almost all the resentment is coming from barely religious secularists/kofrim like yourself? And not from the chardalim that I know? Like the ones who actually have emunah in Hashem, believe tefilah works, believe Torah protects, yet send their sons to the army? Simplest explanation, man.

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Really? They have blogs where they obsess about Charedim 24/7/365? Cool! Please provide link, I'd like to check it out!

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They have actual jobs and responsibilities.

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Dec 24, 2023·edited Dec 25, 2023

They shouldn't be so bitter either. They should learn to appreciate the Torah more. (And the Haredim should also appreciate their own Torah more. And definitely those who need work in this area, should appreciate the soldiers even more.)

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Whole the Chareidim don't fight others die. It's all about Torah in r is

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No,it's about פיקוח נפש!

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I'm happy to see that so many people can relate to this. I posted 15 minutes ago and have received a bunch of likes.

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There are far less Charedim denigrating the soldiers on this blog than the other way around. Your both-sidism is troubling.

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I don't disagree with you. I don't know why you think I am both-siding here. I am clear that I lean towards the Haredi ideology even though I am not in their box. But you must agree that there is room for improvement on the Haredi side. You can always point fingers (as I am doing) but if we all trying to be better people and do the mission God wants us to do in this world, we can work together and become better, Haredim included.

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The first nasty comment that instigated all those responses was actually written by a notorious anti-Charedi troll. He, like Slifkin, is a post-Charedi with an axe to grind against Charedim. He was trying to make a point ad absurdum as to what he understood the Charedi position to be. He didn't seem to realize that his "joke" was extremely inappropriate and was apparently caught off guard at having upset so many people.

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Dec 24, 2023·edited Dec 24, 2023

I was just expressing my dismay for how boring and disappointing this comment section has become, when we have the opportunity to come together and grow. We can always find the one who started the fight and point fingers. What we should do instead is not be so sure of ourselves, even the Haredim who think they have it all worked out, and use each other's skills and takes to create a better nation. Even if Haredim are right that their way is the ultimate way, not everyone is supposed to be a Levi and a Issachar. And the Issachar has to greatly respect the Zebulon. We should all respect each other and grow together instead of this fight which only digs everyone's heels deeper and creates a further divide.

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I wholeheartedly agree. I think the Charedi system in Israel is far, far from ideal, to put it lightly. And I agree that things will need to change and they will need to take constructive criticism seriously as they become the majority in Israel. However, it is only those who hold Torah and Mitzvos in absolutely zero esteem who don't even have any appreciation for their value system and what they are trying to accomplish. That being said, Mr. Slifkin should hardly be surprised that his incessant nasty attacking of Charedim elicits some strong response. Don't dish it out if you can't take it!

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I agree with you. That's why we should all be learning from each other. And that can't happen if the criticisms are coming from a place of hate.

No one is to be surprised here. But we should learn to work together, even on this blog where you feel you are being slighted by him. Remember, even if it looks like he is the instigator by writing this blog, the blog itself is also reactionary to the hate he's received by a one sided viewpoint.

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Yo, shemesh. I like your vibe. Your username suggests that we write a rap about us havin brotherly love.

Yo, us jews have been in exile for 2000 years

Sometimes it's with laughter and sometimes with tears

Despite all the attackin, we have each other's backin

If I go smoke some weed, I'll be able to rhyme "frackin"

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Dec 25, 2023·edited Dec 25, 2023

LOL Yo is my nickname, Yosef is my real name.

I like your message. That we fight but we love each other. We fight like brothers fight. As long as we remember that at the end of the quarrel before we go to sleep.

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I was really getting bored of RJ lately. I was thinking of unsubscribing. There is very little content, and very little intellectual discussions, and lately many comments by non-believers completely.

Thanks for this dialogue, It gives me hope!

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Dec 24, 2023·edited Dec 24, 2023

I have a theory that everyone reading this blog secretly enjoys the hate and the gossip. It would be no fun with people like me who are asking for civil discussions. The Haredim lve that they can trash on Slifkin and Rabbi Slifkin loves that he can trash Haredim. It's much harder to look inward. But that's my outsider's soapbox mode talking, don't mind my ranting.

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I like that observation! I think that's very possible. But I don't want to see any crocodile tears then. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Just curious, how do you identify?

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I don't love the question because it makes it sound like politics.

But if I must put myself in a box, I grew up not religious, and I love Judaism, and I am very into the Haredi ideology, but I think people like Rabbi Slifkin have some very fair critiques (is it critics?) that anyone should be able to see. I think there is a confusion between ideology and culture, where people tend to judge an ideology based on the culture it breeds, which comes along with all of the downsides as well. Often this blinds others from seeing the beauty of the ideology and makes them even despise it, when really they are just turned off by the bad actors.

In my simple understanding, culture is like a personality. Some people have more firey personalities which has is big advantages, but also has it's big disadvantages. Some people are more calm and that too has its advantages and disadvantages. When an ideology is expressed by a culture, even if the ideology is pure, the culture has its advantages and disadvantages. (Am I being clear? My English is not perfect.)

Haredim have a beutiful ideology. When I was studying religion, I was taken by Islam as well, and what I loved was the beautiful spiritual freedom, not bound by the western values that destroy the basic beauty of religion. In a sense, Haredim are the least affected (or infected) by western values and can have clarity of how to deal with them better than those that are steeped in the cultures of equality and everything is so obviously natural, when it's so clearly not. But unfortunately, a lot of Haredim will forget about the fact that we still live in this world and can even be dangerous about it, which turns those practical people mad. Meanwhile, the Haredim are correct that God is running the world and will take care of us. The scary things in the world are bigger than us and all of the Hishtadlut won't help if China or Russia or Iran or Pakistan or worldwide antisemitism explode. At the same time we need to do our best. The only way to do that is we each take our own values which we get from out teachers, Haredim with theirs, and Rabbi Slifkin with his, and work together to be the best Jewish people we can be.

האל ישמור

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Is it better to say הקל ישמור?

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In the hood we say השם ישמור.

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Here are all the comments in a rap, courtesy of ChatGPT

Yo, we scrolling through comments, a virtual stage,

Where folks drop opinions like they're all the rage,

Shemesh stepped in, said the blog's a bit wild,

Haredim and Slifkin, it's a comment section trial.

In the cybernetic dance, we're searching for peace,

But the keyboard warriors, they never cease,

A rap about comments, where opinions ignite,

Let's turn the hate into a vibe that's right.

Natan Slifkin chimed in, dropped a line,

Said there's a war, and the comments are a sign,

Yo Shemesh came back, said let's find common ground,

Build bridges, not walls, let the love resound.

BANana joined the party, throwing shade,

Talked about trolls and the mess they made,

Yo Shemesh shared a theory, we love the strife,

Maybe we secretly crave this virtual life.

Test rolled in, dropped a bombshell,

Said a bris can't compete when soldiers rebel,

Slifkin defended, said it strengthens the fight,

A clash of perspectives, a keyboard night.

So here we are, in the realm of text,

Where words collide and egos flex,

But maybe, just maybe, we can unite,

In the comment section, find some light.

Yo, let's break it down, take a look around,

Comments flying, arguments profound.

ChanaRachel's saying, "Yeshiva students, be devout,

Sleep on the floor, learn, and don't go out."

Shim jumps in, says, "Hold up, that's extreme,

Soldiers need rest, not just a dream.

They can't fight their best, on the ground they sleep,

Gotta find a balance, promises to keep."

Stanley Gluck, throwing shade with no remorse,

Calling out comments, using strong force.

Slinging words like "dumb," creating discord,

In the comment section, opinions are stored.

David Ilan enters with a Torah twist,

"Drink water by measure, eat bread, and persist.

Sit in the dust, learn Torah profound,

But where's the dust in the comments found?"

ChanaRachel returns, with a point well taken,

Says, "They should be learning, not time-forsaken.

Home visits rotating, families not forsaken,

Keep distractions low, keep the focus unshaken."

Stanley Gluck, back with the heat,

"Chana, that's dumb," he repeats.

Personal attacks, insults to share,

In this heated debate, no one seems to care.

David Ohsie intervenes, "Language, let's be clear,

If you've got an argument, make it appear."

Stanley dismisses, "Chana deserves no return,

Her point is 'dumb,' her arguments burn."

Chana's back, explaining her view,

Soldiers on the ground, it's nothing new.

Pikud Haoref, sleeping in a school,

For the greater cause, breaking the rule.

David Ohsie joins, "Let's not insult,

In this discourse, let's bring the result."

Chana stands firm, defends her claim,

In this comment rap, it's all in the game.

Ysteineinstein and Shulman join the chat,

Discussing points, and that is that.

Test with sarcasm, unclear thinking,

Chana seeks clarity, minds still sinking.

Test claims no requirement for the father's presence,

In war, a son's brit is not of essence.

David Ohsie challenges, points misunderstood,

Arguments shifting, not for the greater good.

Arguments fly, tempers rising,

In this comment thread, no compromising.

Nachum steps in, emotions laid bare,

Real-life stories, the weight they bear.

Shim persists, "Rabbi, you spread disdain,

Telling folks their efforts are in vain.

Open to differences, but the slander must cease,

Harmony, not hatred, let the discussion find peace."

Nachum responds, "Exhibit A, this strife,

Mirror reflects, it's a mirrored life."

Retort comes quick, "No, that was a mirror,

In this comment zone, emotions unclear."

Shim stands firm, "Your condescension won't sway,

Let's discuss, not insult, find a better way."

Stanley Gluck adds to the mix,

"If Slifkin would chill, no need for these tricks."

The rap unfolds, the comments persist,

A digital battleground, words do enlist.

In this online arena, where opinions clash,

Let's find common ground, let the tension pass.

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my word banana, you are a pretty talented guy. Are you related to a big public speaker from usa if i may ask.

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Aw, shucks. But it was ChatGPT who gets the credit. Maybe he's related to the speaker you have in mind. But I did write the short little rap to yo shemesh above.

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Dec 24, 2023·edited Dec 24, 2023

There is no requirement for a father to attend his son's bris unless he is the mohel.

How could he (and friend) leave the important mitzva of protecting klal yisroel for such a thing? It's all very sweet and nice but while others are risking their lives, he could have managed without. Think about how many people had to pause and facilitate this. I bet you he wouldn't have abandoned a multi million business deal for that. But leave companions on the front line? Plenty of soldiers miss their wive's giving birth and children growing up. That is accepted practice for soldiers all over the world and throughout history. Nothing to be proud of here. Had he left to get married, what would you think?

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author

You are off your head.

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Natan is right for a first

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Dec 24, 2023·edited Dec 24, 2023

You had better turn on paid comments only before you are spammed endlessly by our friends over at IM who are just getting out of bed. L'shitoscho (how do you say that in proper English?) . This anecdote is nothing to be proud of.

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author

Actually, such comments do a much better job of showing the intellectual and moral problems with charedi society than I ever could.

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Great! So please leave them on for all posts.

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Here's an idea. Why not duplicate each post. One for subscribers only to post, the other a free for all. That way the leitzonim can letz away without disturbing everyone else.

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I agree. But nonetheless it disturbs the reading experience here.

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Feelings are mutual buddy.

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Yes, as in politics, it's always the idiots who are always the most obsessive in the comments section

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Notice that he brought up money immediately. I'm willing to bet that he and his ilk all live in places that:

a) are *other* than the place where God told the Jewish people to live;

b) are not too big on the Bigger Things

c) thinks of money a lot; and

d) where (they think) they don't have to worry about millions of bloodthirsty cousins trying to kill them.

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Is he? This is nice in sentiment, but is it more important than learning?

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chill bro.

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If Natan would chill about his anti-charedim I could chill about this. I see a paradox and I'm calling it out.

Again, nothing against the guy in the story.

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author

Why should I chill out. There's a war going on, millions of Jews are concerned about their loved ones, and there's one Jewish community which is not involved with this.

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Yeah, you're right. Don't chill out. Binge-hate about Charedim. That'll help.

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But what are you gaining.Its not as if you are improving the situation. Just look at the comments.

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you do you but (a) not a good look, (b) just chill

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Don’t say the quiet parts out loud?

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I'd chill and wait to comment when he was bashing chareidim but that became impossible now.

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Dec 24, 2023·edited Dec 24, 2023

Look, I have modox family. When a distant cousin got engaged, he and she strolled around the kibbutz hand in hand (before marriage). But he refused to leave Israel to visit very close family abroad, because 'we don't leave Israel for such things, its not permitted'.

The modox have completely mixed up knowledge and priorities. Protecting klal yisroel is more important than a bris. Especially considering the number of people that were distracted facilitating this.

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author

Let me explain. For a soldier to miss a few days of combat to attend his firstborn's birth and bris STRENGTHENS the army (see the JPost article to better understand it). But for 150,000 people to avoid army service entirely WEAKENS the army.

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What evidence do you have that attending a firstborns bris strengthens the army? It's just that you believe in things that are consistent with your ideology and disbelieve things that are not. Don't pretend it's anything more than that.

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Bagel twisting logic together with your pretzel twisting.!

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There's lots of data showing that

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Are soldiers allowed to leave the front line to get married? I think not. What's the difference?

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Most soldiers are not needed at every second to the point where they can never take a break? Do you live in Israel?

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Well in that case what's all the fuss about?

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Hugh? Leave your office in the tristate area and mentally put yourself in this soldiers shoes

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England

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You are not in the army,get it?!

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Short answer- Usually, but it depends

Longer answer- the army really tries, and it is usually a little easier because the timing is known in advance.

Our friends future son-in-law is in miluim outside Gaza, has been home very little since the start of the war, and will get out for a week for his wedding next week. His friends will work harder when he is out...and -unfortunately- will not be able to attend the wedding

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I don't usually use language like this, but you are a disgusting human being.

If being at ones son's brit is not so important, then I would hope that every Hareidi Yeshiva student with a new baby continues learning during their son's brit, and refrains from visiting their wife in the hospital during/after the birth, so as not to diminish Tora learning, which -according to their shita- is the only thing protecting us.

If they believe that their learning is what protects, I don't understand how they can justify coming home nightly, during the war, rather than an 18 hr home visit (known in the army as an "after") every few weeks.

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No one thinks he should've missed the bris. Test was just pointing the inconsistencies in Natan's logic, if I'm not mistaken.

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author

Let me explain. For a soldier to miss a few days of combat to attend his firstborn's birth and bris STRENGTHENS the army (see the JPost article to better understand it). But for 150,000 people to avoid army service entirely WEAKENS the army.

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The inconsistency is in learners coming home every night and doing *anything* other than learning eating and sleeping if they believe that their learning is what protects

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There are slackers in every faculty of society (yes even the IDF) this point is irrelevant.

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Not at all irrelevant.

The *expectation* of the Yeshiva students (or at least a portion of them, including those married and with kids) should be that they sleep on the floor, eat at their shtenders, learn 16 hours a day and come home for a night every 2 weeks.

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I'm not really clear on the logic behind this claim. Just like with any other soldier, you would want them to have the best resources available at any point to be able to do their job in the best possible conditions, making then sleep on the floor etc will only hamper them from being able to do their job properly. While they should definitely be pushing themselves, that needs to be done sustainably. Just because those on the front line cant do that and practically cant perform at their physical peak doesn't mean the rest who can shouldn't.

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That's really dumb. If this represents the intelligence level of the anti-chareidi side, you guys are totally doomed. A free Darwin award for you.

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True. The chareidim should be making even more of an effort in their learning; that's the message to give over. Not to keep bash their cause like Natan does.

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that was a better comment, yehoshua.

#teshuva

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Exactly

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He does not represent chareidim. He is a troll.

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Dec 24, 2023·edited Dec 24, 2023

I don't think much of chareidi behaviour and lack of sensitivity. Whilst they continue to learn, I believe they should show sensitivity, hold very small weddings, men should avoid rebbes's tiches, gatherings and that sort of thing. But expecting sensitivity from chareidim is like expecting a bull to behave in a china shop. After all, if one has been cultishly brainwashed from the age of 5 that the world only survives because of chareidim, what should we expect?

But that wasn't what my comment was about. It was to trigger some thinking. Difficult I know.

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What sort of thinking, exactly?

Please spell it out for me (and others who may also not understand).

War is bad. War is dangerous and not a game. Thank G-d Israel has a Jewish army, with Jewish values, and when possible tries to maintain these even in the midst of war.

It is actually fairly easy (relatively speaking) for the army to transport soldiers in and out of Gaza. In Lebanon2, one of the most dangerous aspects was getting soldiers in and out of Lebanon (you may remember boobytrapped roads and helicopter accidents), and short breaks home were much less feasible

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Just for the record, do you believe that Torah Learning is important, and that it protects at all, or not?

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Here is what I believe:

I believe that G-d created us and put us in the world to do his will

I believe that the Torah is the guide to what He wants

I believe that doing Mitzvot has good consequences for *ourselves* in this world and the world to come, and also causes some sort of general good in the world but in ways that we can't measure or quantitate or understand

I believe that we should do mitzvot because it's God's will, and not for a particular reward

I do *not* believe that Hashem is a bank or a candy machine, and thus, we cannot know the exact outcome of our good deeds, and accordingly zechuyot cannot be traded like bitcoins (and besides who would set the exchange rate?)

If I miss maariv even for the best of reasons I need to make it up, and somebody else can't do it for me.

Of course people can choose in life where they want to place their emphasis to perform the role that they believe G-d intended for them to the best of their abilities.. But there are certain basic obligations that are incumbent on everyone and those cannot be done by a proxy.

I believe that one of those obligations in Israel is for at least healthy men to protect our country.

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Well guess what, we believe the same beliefs, except for that last belief and an additional belief that I believe, but believe you have omitted in your list of beliefs. It is the belief that other than primary beliefs that are incumbent upon all believers, non primary beliefs such as your last belief are up for debate. And I believe that people are entitled to have differences of belief within a specific set of boundaries. I also believe, wholeheartedly, that what goes on in this blog, both by NS and by many of his commentators is at the very least bordering on Kefira, and that's aside for the fact that it shows him and his followers up for what they truly are - spiteful and self hating narcissists. I would also love to believe that people such as yourself aren't part of that vile group, and were it not for some seemingly mental prejudices that cloud your judgment we would find between us a lot more common ground than is currently discernible.

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Dec 25, 2023·edited Dec 25, 2023

Charly-

As I indicated above in the comments we found out yesterday that our friend's son HY'D was killed in Gaza. Just got home from the funeral.

I would be happy to discuss what I believe, but it would be inappropriate right now on several levels. I will leave it to others to provide the religious-zionist perspective, though I assume each person who responds would have slight differences in nuance.

I will note that the thousands at the funeral responded

יהא שמיה רבה מברך לעלם ולעלמי עלמיא

with kavana that one rarely hears elsewhere

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המקום ינחם אתכם

With all due respect, do you not thank that many of your comments here especially the ones that referred to Gedoila Torah and those that study Torah have been highly inappropriate to put it mildly.

I don't look down on your Hashkafic system, and i certainly wouldn't start raging against it in ways that come uncomfortably close to those about whom Chazal say Ain Lohem chalek Leoilom Haba.

I understand you seem to have not got a good impression about Charadim from some relatives of yours, however, whatever slifkin writes, most if not all Charadim appreciate immensely the sacrifices made by those going to fight. Although it is damn difficult to express it in this blog for reasons that should be obvious.

Why we don't serve in the army, i believe is also pretty much understood unless by those with an axe to grind, or those that dont actually serve themselves - think lapid lieberman slifkin.

Also, like it or not, some of the foremost Gedoila Torah of the previous generation and of ours, back more or less the Charadi stance - with slight variations. What give you the right - despite your feelings - to think you know better because your Rabonim think different.

One last point, Whatever protection the Torah does provide, rendered mute with regard to those that constantly belittle and make Litzonos of it.

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This is incorrect in pretty much every way.

1) Of course there is a requirement for the father to attend the Bris of his son. In fact he is supposed to do the Bris himself and many do so after the Mohel has set it up and or course to make a Berachah on the Mitzvah. Even if he is appointing a Mohel as a Shaliach, he should ideally be appointing him in person to do the Mitzvah for him. Yes, bediavad, if he appointed him over the radio or phone and could not be there to make the berachah, it would be considered kosher milah, but this is not the lechatchilah way of doing it. In addition, the father is supposed to participate in the Seudas Mitzvah to the point where his is supposed to eat after Minchah Gedolah on a fast day that was pushed from it's normal time. So of course there is a requirement for the father to attend the Bris for multiple reasons even if the Bris is Kasher Bediavad, even if he doesn't.

2) Every army in history relieves their soldiers as much as possible to maintain an effective fighting force with high morale. I know from talking to people who were called up in this Gaza war that they were allowed time off to go visit their families and then return. You seem to be claiming that the IDF and this man's fellow soldiers would not want to him to attend the Bris, but this is completely false. Everyone who is fighting wants to know that his or her own needs and especially the needs of their family will not be neglected by the IDF during a fight. As R Slifkin points out, any army that acts with callousness towards the needs of their soldiers will be a less effective fighting force. This idea reflected in the Torah itself where a man with a bethrothed wife or even someone with an new vineyard or house is exempt from service for some time.

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Dec 24, 2023·edited Dec 24, 2023

Halevai the modox chevrah was so generally makpid in halochoh that the mohel has to be appointed personally. At the expense of the big mitzvah of protecting EY and distracting others. Telephone will do. Wonder if his wife is equally makpid to cover every hair.

Re point 2, in that case what's the big deal? Every army does the same.

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Dec 24, 2023·edited Dec 24, 2023

Before we go on to your new argument, can we agree that the 2 premises of your original argument are false. 1) "There is no requirement for a father to attend his son's bris unless he is the mohel." 2) "That [giving up all attending to personal needs] is accepted practice for soldiers all over the world and throughout history." Then I can address your new ones.

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No. I don't accept 1. Firstly, it's definitely preferred but certainly not required. Not at the expense of the important mitzvoh of protecting EY.

2. Please clarify what you are trying to say.

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You are switching up you argument again. You said "There is no requirement for a father to attend his son's bris unless he is the mohel." If there are two ways of doing things "Lechatchilah" and "Bediavad" there is requirement to do them Lechatchilah. You can't just say that 'well Bediavad it is good anyway so there is no requirement". Like you can't just say shehakol on every food even though you are yotzei bediavad. You are required to attempt to say the proper berachah. So there is certainly a requirement for a father to attend the Bris. He is supposed to do it is himself, be there to appoint the Mohel if he is not expert enough, be there to make the Berachah and be there for the Seudah.

You seem to realize that your argument is false, but then you make a different argument that since he is fighting, it is better to push off his mitzvot to stay with his unit. You don't provide any real analysis to back this is extraordinary claim. On the face if it, it appears to be a simple case where you can be mekayaim both; stop fighting for the milah, then go back. Just like you stop learning for a milah and then go back. It's not at the expense of any Mitzvah.

2. I think you need to clarify. You seemed to argue that it is the accepted practice for all soldiers across the world to get no relief from fighting for any personal need. This is false in reality and seemingly according to the Torah. And of course it is the IDF's judgement that counts here, not yours. But if you can clarify your argument that might help.

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A soldier in the front line does not need to keep lechitchola in every mitzvah. Go ask the army rabbinate. It's really not that complicated.

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Dec 24, 2023·edited Dec 24, 2023

Don't bother, David. For test, if the bris is still chal without the father's presence, it's just not that important if he's not there, I guess. Unfortunately, actual humanity ranks far below his halach-bot, flow chart version of reality.

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Yo guys, seriously. This test guy was TROLLING y'all. Get it?

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This is an insane comment. Get back on your meds (you and the people who liked it).

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Agreed. But you gotta admit Slifkin needs a lot more meds. His insanity is just as bad if not worse. Remember "if chareidim believe Hashem helps, how come they call exterminators for rat problems, huh? GOTCHA!!!" What a total loon.

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Troll.

No one in IM would say this.

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Exactly. Nothing against this guy, but Natan...

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You know, I have to post just a bit more. Hundreds of thousands of soldiers are in actual shooting combat at this moment, risking everything up to and including their lives to protect millions of Jews. Many- far, far, too many- are in fact dying. And yet R' Slifkin puts up a post like this and these pampered idiots, sitting comfortable in some perch on the other side of the ocean, where (they think) they don't have to worry about people trying to kill them- people who have never been asked to risk their lives or safety or time or *anything* *for* anything, people who would probably find some way to avoid protecting even the country they live in if the need arose- these people act like this is a fine time to once again bring up all their stupid little petty grievances and pet issues and act like the trolls they are.

Me? I walk down the hall in my office Tel Aviv and a colleague sees me and asks how the weather is in Jerusalem. (This time of year Tel Avivians feel very bad for Jerusalemites.) I see the dogtag around her neck and know her husband is on the front lines somewhere. I know she's worried stiff. I don't want to tell her that, yes, it's cold in Jerusalem, even though she really wants to know, because he's in the cold rain somewhere in some hole in Gaza.

A friend of mine puts up a picture of her two little kids on Facebook. I know her husband, also a friend of mine, is out there being shot at. I know she can't sleep at night. I don't know whether to smile or cry at her picture.

My son's Bnei Akiva chapter puts up yet another memorial- the fifth, I think- to a graduate who has fallen in this war. His school has three new memorials up. (It's an old school. Their memorial has almost forty names going back to 1943 or so.) Some of them are only a degree or so removed from me.

And again, R' Slifkin puts up a post like this and you *trolls* can't keep yourself from acting like you're hocking in some beit midrash in the US while you're pretending to *learn*, slapping yourselves on the back for the "genius" chakiras you can think up and the insults you can throw.

For shame.

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Dec 24, 2023·edited Dec 24, 2023

No the reason people attack Rabbi Slifkin , is because R Slifkin tells people that DO care as much as you ,that they don't care at all, and that any effort they ARE putting in is futile and even detrimental to society . While spreading falsities about the reasons we do so , ridiculing any ''legitimate'' chareidi effort ,spreading false ideas about chareidi hashkafa based on twisted logic and over exaggerating the reach of chareidi extremism. While I do agree their methodology of doing so is nothing short of appalling and in many cases quite disgusting and anti Torah.The frustration is just. I am open to a difference in ideas or hashkafa ,but slander has no place on either side.

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author

"and that any effort they ARE putting in is futile and even detrimental to society." To which effort are you referring?

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Dec 24, 2023·edited Dec 24, 2023

You have not been very open to the idea that any learning Davening etc.. is of any value. Again I take no issues in you having your own views. It's the constant harassment which does more harm than good that is the issue.

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And, yes, I "harass" that viewpoint, because it is hurtful and harmful to the rest of ISrael.

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Dec 26, 2023·edited Dec 26, 2023

In your opinion it is harmful , I never expected you to agree , but that you conclude based on this disagreement the chareidim dont care at all is just factually incorrect (Yes there are extremists who dont etc...) That is what I take issue with.

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author

You're talking about people who are learning and davening anyway. And instead of stopping that to fight, they just "dedicate it to soldiers." That's not called "putting in effort to help society."

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Its not only chareidy society that dedicate their torah mitvas tefillah etc to soliers.

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Where did you understand that?! I didn't.

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Exhibit A, ladies and gents.

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Ok, so you think that you are entitled to be nasty and insulting to everyone else, but the moment they respond in kind, you break down with a pathetic pity party.

Exhibit H for hypocrite.

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I'm fairly certain I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to people with enough maturity to appreciate what I said. Clearly this is lacking in you. Go read some mussar or something.

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I'm fairly certain that when you make stupid comments on a public forum, it's fair game for people to call you out on them.

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Aren't you proud of yourself for how clever you are. Please tell me you're a teenager.

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No, that was a mirror.

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I'm fairly certain I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to people with enough maturity to appreciate what I said. Clearly this is lacking in you. Go read some mussar or something.

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Seriously!? You are guilty of your own accusations, if the only response you have is a condescending one rather say nothing.

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I'm fairly certain I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to people with enough maturity to appreciate what I said. Clearly this is lacking in you. Go read some mussar or something.

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You werent talking to me? You commented on my post! Im not sure what Ive done for you to get personal. I am fully entitled to disagree with the various ideas portrayed on this blog. If I have offended you in any way please make it clear.

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Scroll up. I posted in the third person, you responded, and I told you to keep your nose out. You either have poor reading comprehension or are out to start fights; either way, you are not a person worth engaging with.

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If Slifkin would act like your nice friends, the "trolls" wouldn't have a problem. But you can't detatch this one post from his constant output of hatred against a community.

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Exhibit B, ladies and gents. Or C, or D...

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Oy, how did such a wonderful post beget such an unpleasant bunch of comments?

I photographed a Brit last week where the father and two of his brothers were on short leave from the army. It was also an amazing experience. With the singing mohel guy and Shlomo Katz doing the brachot. They named the baby Lavi Shalom. Was not a dry eye in the house.

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That mohel is amazing. He was the mohel at this brit too.

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"Oy, how did such a wonderful post beget such an unpleasant bunch of comments?"

You can't detatch one post from the context of the author and his usual output.

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מזל טוב ויגדלו לתורה ולחופה ולמעשים טובים

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My goodness, there are some seriously sick people commenting here. I wonder if they even have the ability to sense that they are. Probably not.

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Oh yes, when people give you a taste of your own nasty medicine, you cry. Pathetic. Exhibit B for bully, and then Exhibit C for crybaby.

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I'm fairly certain I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to people with enough maturity to appreciate what I said. Clearly this is lacking in you. Go read some mussar or something.

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Exhibit U for unoriginal

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Oh, so you're really a twelve-year-old.

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Exhibit O for Ok boomer

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Go away, child.

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It’s a Brit! What’s this Bris nonsense?

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Excuse me? Don't call Slifkin *it*. At least for now, Slifkin still uses he/him pronouns. The correct way to write that would be "He's a Brit!"

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No, its a Brith.

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Dec 24, 2023·edited Dec 24, 2023

The best thing about this post and the subsequent comments is the emergence of a new excuse for Chareidim to avoid contributing to the security of the State of Israel. Until now, we've had classics like -

1 - But the Arabs don't serve, so why should we?

2 - The IDF doesn't need/want us.

3 - I have a friend whose son-in-law was in the IDF and did nothing all day for 3 years.

4 - Israel would be better off with a professional army.

5 - Our learning is at least as important to the country's defense as what the Chayalim do.

6 - There are plenty of Chilonim from North Tel Aviv who don't serve.

7 - So many of the soldiers aren't in combat units.

8 - There are girls in the IDF.

Etc. -

We now have the "They let that guy out DURING A WAR for his son's bris?!?! How important can what they're doing really be?" argument.

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except you couldn't tell the difference between an honest guy and an anti-chareidi troll who just paraphrased what he guessed chareidim would say...

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Very well put.

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Thank you for posting this. It is nice to read about good news at times instead of near constant war reporting. May Hashem bless and keep him and his family and all the other soldiers fighting to return home and peace and our enemies annulled and devoured.

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Beautiful

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Don't you know it's the guys sitting in chairs drinking coffee all day who are the real heroes?

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There are slackers in every society, guess what, even in the IDF! This is an irrelevant point.

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This simple, slice of life entry provides humanity and a spark of optimistic light in otherwise dark times, particularly for the soldiers involved. I doubt the soldiers who enabled all aspects of the "bris" event would agree with or appreciate the despicable pig-headed thoughts expressed by the many detractors in this blog. Reading those comments made me hope that few others do. It is a "shanda" not just to the Goyim but to all. Shame !

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https://vinnews.com/2023/12/20/listen-rav-asher-weiss-discusses-yeshiva-boys-davening-for-idf-soldiers/

Hear Rav Asher Weiss on Yeshivot davening for IDF soldiers

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The real spitz yeshivish consider him a bit, you know, give 'the look'.

Ask our friends at irrationalist what a fundamentalist Lakewooder thinks of him. As they do with all who don't toe the party line. However learned.

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Thats not true you will find his Seforim in almost every mainstream BM in EY .

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Dec 24, 2023·edited Dec 24, 2023

So what? You find plenty of mechabrim of soferim in the BH written by those, take a deep breath, who believed in a measure of secular/scientific knowledge, and even deeper breath, working for a living. Starting with the talmud and many rishonim.

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Im not sure why that is relevant. But facts on the ground , while he may not be 'Main stream' he is incredibly well respected in the Chareidi Community.

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Sure he is 'well respected'. But .......the fact you fall over yourself to say 'well respected' means there is a but.

Noone says the Brisker Rav was 'well respected' in that way.

I hope you get what I am trying to say.

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I'm not sure why you are pushing this point so hard .The point is very clear. I think the comment on him speaking in BMG pretty much sums it up.

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IM already responded to you on that, they all let you know their positive view on him. I know, you exemplify מאך נישט וויסענדיג and say the same thing over and over again, even after getting the answer you don't want.

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We are totally cool with this kind of guy. We don't need everyone to be learning.

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What kind of guy? What are you saying?

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We in Lakewood have no issue with the protagonist of the story.

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Oh, were you talking about Reb Asher Weiss? My bad.

Same response though. We have no problem with Reb Asher Weiss in Lakewood. We respect him and his Torah greatly.

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I remember a Shiur he said in the main Beis Hamedrash in BMG. On Maseches Shabbos.

That is a huge statement.

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Most do. But many do not.

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