Comments on Rationalist Judaism: Tylenol and Timtum

While you may scream about the necessity to kno...

2009-07-14T23:22:32.672+03:00
While you may scream about the necessity to know Aristotelian philosophy to understand the Moreh in context, you fail to realize, without knowledge of the ancient scientific terminology and approach you don't begin to put the scientific statements in the gemara in context. It's the equivalent of not knowing the language.

What are you talking about? Of course it's essential to know about ancient scientific terminology in order to understand the Gemara. When did I ever indicate otherwise?

(Incidentally, I did not "scream" about the necessity to know Aristotelian philosophy to understand the Moreh; I stated it. I find your choice of terminology bizarre.)

Thanks for the interesting Rambam reference, I will look into it.

Once I'm quoting R. Schwab zt'l on the Hir...

2009-07-14T20:57:31.482+03:00
Once I'm quoting R. Schwab zt'l on the Hirschian letter and R. Avrhoam b. Harambam, let me quote him on segulos, from the Yated article I linked:

A great-granddaughter of Rav Shimon Schwab had been to Eretz Yisroel. Upon returning, she visited her grandfather, a red string tied around her wrist. When Rav Schwab saw the string, he asked his granddaughter why she was wearing it. The girl told her grandfather that it was a piece of a red string which had been wound around Kever Rochel seven times and that wearing such a string was supposedly a segulah for a shidduch and other things.

When he heard this, Rav Schwab - in his trademark pleasant manner - asked the girl if she thought that perhaps she should not wear it. The granddaughter asked if he thought she should remove it, and he responded in the affirmative. Of course, the girl obliged, and Rav Schwab himself removed the red string from her hand. After removing the string, Rav Schwab explained to his granddaughter why he had felt that it should be removed.

“If you wish for something,” Rav Schwab explained, “then you should daven for it. That’s how a Jew deals with all situations - with tefillah, Torah, and mitzvos. If there is a segulah which is part of our general service to Hashem, then such a segulah may be acceptable. There are no quick-fixes, however. A segulah which is not tefillah and has no component of avodas Hashem in it, but rather is merely a quick-fix, such as wearing a red string, is unacceptable.”

1) See note 14, in Prof. Shapiro's TUM Journal...

2009-07-14T20:51:46.878+03:00
1) See note 14, in Prof. Shapiro's TUM Journal article(TIDE in the Shadow of Hitler"), linked below:

"It is interesting to note that after rejecting his earlier view and assuming the role of Hirschian apologist, R. Simon Schwab indeed followed this approach.
See Lawrence Kaplan, “Torah u-Madda in the Thought of Rabbi Samson
Raphael Hirsch,” BDD 5 (Summer 1997): 28 n. 25, with reference to two letters
of Hirsch about the non-binding nature of the Sages’ scientific statements:

In my memorable phone conversation with Rabbi Schwab . . . our conversation
at one point turned to the recent important collection of writings
of Rabbi Hirsch, Shemesh Marpeh, edited by Rabbi Eliyahu
Klugman and published by Rabbi Schwab himself. . . . I took the opportunity
to express my surprise that these two letters of Rabbi Hirsch to
Rabbi Wechsler were not included in the volume, which purports to
include all of Rabbi Hirsch’s major Hebrew writings, published and
unpublished. Rabbi Schwab replied—and I am citing him practially verbatim—“
Yes, you are correct. The editor [Rabbi Klugman] consulted
with me, and I advised him not to publish them. I told him that the letters
are controversial and likely to be misunderstood, and that his publishing
them would just bring him unnecessary grief (tzoros).”

http://www.yutorah.org/_shiurim/3.%20Marc%20B.%20Shapiro%20-%20Torah%20im%20Derekh%20Erez%20in%20the%20Shadow%20of%20Hitler.pdf

2) It is interesting that R. Schwab in his essay on Jewish Chronology(Selected Speeches) lists R. Avroham b. Harambam among other mareh mekomos for understanding agados chazal without questioning its authorship or attribution.

3) See following article on segulos from Yated, offering a more balanced approach, and criticizing a popular trend:

http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/yated/kishke_segula.html

"I never claimed or implied that only right-w...

2009-07-14T19:14:06.208+03:00
"I never claimed or implied that only right-wingers make such errors. But they are more prone to it, for several reasons. In part, it is because their notion of yeridas hadoros makes it hard for them to accept that Rishonim/ Acharonim said something that in their hashkafic view is unacceptable."

"Many of our coreligionists thought that King Solomon believed in the Eternity of the Universe. This is very strange. How can we suppose that any one that adheres to the Law of Moses, our Teacher, should accept that theory?" Guide 2:28 (Freidlander).

:)

"Can't wait to hear it. Until then, I mus...

2009-07-14T07:42:51.232+03:00
"Can't wait to hear it. Until then, I must admit that I am extremely skeptical about it not being a stretch."

While you may scream about the necessity to know Aristotelian philosophy to understand the Moreh in context, you fail to realize, without knowledge of the ancient scientific terminology and approach you don't begin to put the scientific statements in the gemara in context. It's the equivalent of not knowing the language.

Although this is off topic, how does this Rambam "work"
רמב"ם יד החזקה - הלכות תשובה פרק ב
וזהו דרכם של זרע ישראל ולבם הנכון אבל הגוים ערלי לב אינן כן אלא ועברתן שמרה נצח וכן הוא אומר על הגבעונים לפי שלא מחלו ולא נתפייסו והגבעונים לא מבני ישראל המה

How can the be a natural difference between Yidden and Goyim's natual feelings?

Well, I know someone who heard directly from R. Sc...

2009-07-14T07:01:35.345+03:00
Well, I know someone who heard directly from R. Schwab that it IS authentic.

In any case, like I explained, the evidence is irrefutable. Even if R. Schwab would have said otherwise, it would mean that he was mistaken.

I don't have the sefer with me and just can't remember the name, but it's explain there beautifully in accord with science, AND it's not a stretch.

Can't wait to hear it. Until then, I must admit that I am extremely skeptical about it not being a stretch.

1) You claimed that there are Hirschian scholar...

2009-07-14T06:47:03.941+03:00
1) You claimed that there are Hirschian scholars who rate the letters as forgeries. Who?

R' Schwab, and I'm sorry but my source is very reliable.

I don't know. What difference does it make?

To me there is a difference between if he said it on his own, or simply was repeating what R Emden said. I understand where you are coming from, but I can't respond to an anonymous statement, becuase if I don't know who said it, I don't know with how much authority it was said.

Re. where the sun goes at night.

I don't have the sefer with me and just can't remember the name, but it's explain there beautifully in accord with science, AND it's not a stretch.

The debate

That Chazal considered themselves fully competent in matters of science, and didn't defer to the science of the day.

and Rebbe's statement.

Like the Shita.

In regard to how much of the sefer? I do...

2009-07-14T06:20:43.793+03:00

In regard to how much of the sefer?

I don't know. What difference does it make?

Re. where the sun goes at night. The debate and Re...

2009-07-14T06:19:39.417+03:00
Re. where the sun goes at night. The debate and Rebbe's statement.

"One of the Gedolim who banned my books also ...

2009-07-14T06:17:57.852+03:00
"One of the Gedolim who banned my books also said it, but I cannot name him."

In regard to how much of the sefer? Or was it the generic שלטו ביה זרים?

Actually, nothing to do with dishonesty, but ra...

2009-07-14T06:16:15.349+03:00
Actually, nothing to do with dishonesty, but rather due to being very busy traveling and having sporadic internet access.

Then I'm sorry, I saw later comments posted, so I assumed it was skipped by.

Now, I have some questions for you.

1) You claimed that there are Hirschian scholars who rate the letters as forgeries. Who?

Hopefully I'll have an answer shortly.

2) Why did you include so many ad hominem insults in your comments that I did not post? I never feel any need to insult people, I merely offer objections to their positions. Why do you feel a need to engage in personal insults?

I have no recolection what I did this afternoon let alone exactly what I wrote in a comment while being engaged in many other thing yesterday. If you have a question about a specific statement I made I'll be glad to answer.

3) How do you learn peshat in the sugya of Pesachim 94b re Chachmei Yisrael vs. Chachmei HaUmos?

Which part the first argument or the second, or Rebbe's statement?

One of the Gedolim who banned my books also said i...

2009-07-14T06:06:47.334+03:00
One of the Gedolim who banned my books also said it, but I cannot name him.

"Rav Yaakov Emden." "Look at the g...

2009-07-14T06:05:15.709+03:00
"Rav Yaakov Emden."

"Look at the great Torah scholars who claimed that the Moreh must be a forgery!"

I believe the word scholars is plural, and as I wrote I know of one who said that about a part. R Emdem said that about the third chelek only. I'm sure you know R Emden does quote the third chelek in his seforim, so although he argues against, part of it, his true position is unclear.

Please don't go around saying great scholars, as if there are many, until you can back your position with fact.

Dishonesty is when you don't post my commen...

2009-07-14T06:03:03.564+03:00
Dishonesty is when you don't post my comment reminding you I never said that.

Dishonesty is you refuse to name the alleged scholars who considered the Moreh a forgery.

Actually, nothing to do with dishonesty, but rather due to being very busy traveling and having sporadic internet access.

Now, I have some questions for you.

1) You claimed that there are Hirschian scholars who rate the letters as forgeries. Who?

2) Why did you include so many ad hominem insults in your comments that I did not post? I never feel any need to insult people, I merely offer objections to their positions. Why do you feel a need to engage in personal insults?

3) How do you learn peshat in the sugya of Pesachim 94b re Chachmei Yisrael vs. Chachmei HaUmos?

What about the letter from the Rambam, why may ...

2009-07-14T05:59:02.316+03:00
What about the letter from the Rambam, why may that be dismissed a a forgery?

I haven't researched it and I didn't call it a forgery. I merely asked about it. Someone said that Rav Shilat rated it as a forgery; he is generally rated as a reliable scholar.

What about the Zohar? Why may that be dismissed as a forgery?

For all kinds of reasons, e.g. its mention of nikud and other concepts and words that were unknown in Talmudic times, versus the complete lack of evidence that it was written in Talmudic times.

Why may rationalists dismiss all of Kabala as a forgery?

They don't.

That's ironic, I thought only right-wing mi...

2009-07-14T05:56:49.281+03:00
That's ironic, I thought only right-wing minded people were so closed minded that they just write things of a forgeries.

I never claimed or implied that only right-wingers make such errors. But they are more prone to it, for several reasons. In part, it is because their notion of yeridas hadoros makes it hard for them to accept that Rishonim/ Acharonim said something that in their hashkafic view is unacceptable.

why would you have the right to assume, Rav Chaim Brisker, a person who's identity was marked by an unwavering iyum analysis of anything he approached, and especially in the Rambam, not give the moreh iyum as the yad?

His identity was marked by iyun in the Mishneh Torah. It is accepted and even recommended practice in the yeshivah world to intensively study the Yad but not the Moreh. It's not even possible to understand the Moreh without a background in Greek and Moslem philosophy.

Yilel: I would like names of people who did
2009-07-14T05:54:07.619+03:00
Yilel:

I would like names of people who did

Rav Yaakov Emden.

All I claimed is they were (in their minds) on very solid ground.

But that simply reinforces my point. They didn't consult manuscript experts or Hirschian experts. They took some questions and turned them into definitive evidence that the texts were forged. Nobody without their bias has ever reached that conclusion.

What was Rav Schwab's position on the matter?

That they were genuine.
Incidentally, you still haven't named the Hirschian scholars that you claimed regarded the letters as forgeries. Please name them.

"The fact that you nevertheless claim that th...

2009-07-14T05:22:54.974+03:00
"The fact that you nevertheless claim that they are forgeries reveals that you are just as biased and intellectually dishonest as those who you are attempting to defend!"

Dishonesty is when you don't post my comment reminding you I never said that.

Dishonesty is you refuse to name the alleged scholars who considered the Moreh a forgery.

As a complete side note... Running to put a kipah ...

2009-07-13T19:43:07.945+03:00
As a complete side note...
Running to put a kipah back on the head of child can be very bad chinuch. Of course different kids have different temperaments. Much better to just set a good example and tell them things that will inspire them to want to wear it.

Also, many very great people ate and continue to eat Chalav stam.

"R Chaim forbade him to." Yes, he clear...

2009-07-13T16:27:43.328+03:00
"R Chaim forbade him to."

Yes, he clearly knew the dangers of learning Moreh, and that it's not for everyone. However R Chaim himself was know to have learned the Moreh, and I believe the book states that was exactly why R Moshe wanted to learn it in the first place.

See "The Soloveichick Heretige" by Shula...

2009-07-13T12:14:00.622+03:00
See "The Soloveichick Heretige" by Shulamis Meisalman z"l, who worte how her father R Moshe Soloveichick never read the Moreh bacuase his father, R Chaim forbade him to.

I saw the "Response" to Rav Moshe. Agai...

2009-07-12T19:50:18.301+03:00
I saw the "Response" to Rav Moshe.

Again I never claimed anything was a forgery, you brought it up, so I responded.

What about the letter from the Rambam, why may that be dismissed a a forgery? What about the Zohar? Why may that be dismissed as a forgery? Why may rationalists dismiss all of Kabala as a forgery?

"Kafach considered it a forgery but it is in ...

2009-07-12T18:22:38.799+03:00
"Kafach considered it a forgery but it is in fact authentic."

That's ironic, I thought only right-wing minded people were so closed minded that they just write things of a forgeries.

"What on earth is that supposed to mean?"

I wouldn't exactly call it an insult, but why would you have the right to assume, Rav Chaim Brisker, a person who's identity was marked by an unwavering iyum analysis of anything he approached, and especially in the Rambam, not give the moreh iyum as the yad?

"But what about those who did?" I would...

2009-07-12T18:12:38.689+03:00
"But what about those who did?"

I would like names of people who did, before I can respond, I only know of one person, who said so about the third chelek, and he himself quotes the third chelek in his seforim, so his position in completely unclear.

"So you're also claiming that it's a forgery? See my response to Rav Moshe Shapiro for the extensive evidence of its authenticity."

No, I'm not, never did. All I claimed is they were (in their minds) on very solid ground. They didn't just deny it because they didn't like it.

Where is the response?

"WHICH true Hirschians? And would they also happen to be people who are hashkafically opposed to its contents?

There is not a shred of doubt that
the letters are genuine. The claim of forgery is based on the fact that the letters from Rav Hirsch were unsigned and were not written in his handwriting. However, Professor Mordechai Breuer, the greatest expert on Rav Hirsch in our day, noted to me that it was the custom for family members to make copies of correspondence. He laughed when I told him that there were people claiming the letters to be forgeries. Rav Hirsch’s letters were part of a lengthy exchange with Rabbi Hile Wechsler, and Rabbi Wechsler’s original handwritten letters are extant. To maintain a belief that the Hirsch letters were forged, one would have to claim that somebody was consistently intercepting the letters that Rabbi Wechsler was sending, and was writing responses in a style and handwriting that fooled Rabbi Wechsler into thinking that he was corresponding with Rav Hirsch and continuing the correspondence! This is absurd. The Wechsler letters prove beyond doubt that the Hirsch letters are genuine."

What was Rav Schwab's position on the matter?

"The fact that you nevertheless claim that they are forgeries reveals that you are just as biased and intellectually dishonest as those who you are attempting to defend!"

I never did, you brought up the issue of forgery, so I responded. I personally have no idea if they forgeries or not, and in general have no reason to suspect so.

"Yes, of course!" Talk about intelle...

2009-07-12T18:02:54.805+03:00
"Yes, of course!"

Talk about intellectual honesty.

What on earth is that supposed to mean? Are you complimenting me on my forthrightness, or attempting some sort of insult? If the latter, I have no idea what.

Comments on Rationalist Judaism: Tylenol and Timtum

While you may scream about the necessity to kno...

Once I'm quoting R. Schwab zt'l on the Hir...

1) See note 14, in Prof. Shapiro's TUM Journal...

"I never claimed or implied that only right-w...

"Can't wait to hear it. Until then, I mus...

Well, I know someone who heard directly from R. Sc...

1) You claimed that there are Hirschian scholar...

In regard to how much of the sefer? I do...

Re. where the sun goes at night. The debate and Re...

"One of the Gedolim who banned my books also ...

Actually, nothing to do with dishonesty, but ra...

One of the Gedolim who banned my books also said i...

"Rav Yaakov Emden." "Look at the g...

Dishonesty is when you don't post my commen...

What about the letter from the Rambam, why may ...

That's ironic, I thought only right-wing mi...

"The fact that you nevertheless claim that th...

As a complete side note... Running to put a kipah ...

"R Chaim forbade him to." Yes, he clear...

See "The Soloveichick Heretige" by Shula...

I saw the "Response" to Rav Moshe. Agai...

"Kafach considered it a forgery but it is in ...

"But what about those who did?" I would...

"Yes, of course!" Talk about intelle...