Comments on Rationalist Judaism: Rabbi Leib Tropper and EJF

Rabbi Slifkin, I have always been a huge fan of y...

2010-01-07T00:24:02.962+02:00

Rabbi Slifkin,
I have always been a huge fan of yours. I adore your writing, and respect your mind. I saw you speak at the YI on Queens a few years ago, and when I bumped into your wife without know it was your wife and told her I liked her skirt, she immediately recognized me from college after 13 years. Yasher coach on all you have done and may Hashem continue to pave the way for the greatness yet to come. Please know that during your ban you had some major fans rooting for you. Yasher Koach.

re: "Why do you try to fight them? Much of t...

2009-12-25T07:06:03.594+02:00

re:

"Why do you try to fight them? Much of their behavior is insulting and condescending towards anyone that doesn’t share their worldview, but so what? Judaism has split many times before. It seems its time for it to split again. Let the chareidim go their own way. Neither Modern Orthodoxy nor rationalism needs their approval. No doubt they will brand us another heretical sect. So what. We should stop yielding them the moral high ground, and preemptively declare numerous practices, like rebbe and rosh-yeshiva worship, as the superstition and idolatry that it is. As it is, MO Jews are not considered frum by many chareidim, and chareidim are considered superstitions by many MO. Why not make it official?"

The problem is this type of division has been very bad for the jews historically.

The Vilna Gaon learns that one of the features of the Erev Rav is they attempt to stir up controversy to divide us. we have to resist that impulse.

also, alot of people are in the middle and will therefore get ripped apart.

but the bottom line is the orthodox must be united for us to get to Moshiach properly i think, at least in the 'good way'.

that being said, i think the modern orthodox community is going to have to hold its ground here.

G*3 said, "According to his way of thinking, ...

2009-12-25T04:38:33.975+02:00

G*3 said, "According to his way of thinking, by saying chazal may have made some mistakes your saying that all of the time he has spent learning Torah has been a waste."

No, no, no. That's not his motivation. It's interesting to hear what people who have not been around him think.

Tropper has been spouting (incorrect interpretations of) Nietzsche and others whom he feels shows him to be an intellectual for years. There is no reason to think he believes anything that he preaches in this case.

He had become (and EJF still might be) a fulcrum that focuses all power associated with conversion to an individual (global besides Israel) or small group (Israel). Added to this is the new power the power brokers gave themselves to revoke conversions after the fact. This gives them tremendous power over people for all their lives and beyond, to their descendants. This power is what Tropper craved.

This could not be done if the Torah way, using non centralized Buhtai Deenim, had continued to be applied. And adding proselytization now lets them choose wealthy and powerful targets who can be controlled.

The political necessity to accomplish this maneuver was the banding together with others who possess the same craving to control others, others who may or may not have been sincere in their beliefs. It was just a show that allowed Tropper to get what he wanted.

We see some of what he did with his power. EJF must be disbanded.

It is questionable if sanity will ever be returned to the Geirus movement, however. The avalanche has begun. His cohorts in Israel could get political control over Mi Yehudi and, even if they do not, their word is law in Charedi circles now. Though R' Reuven immediately announced that all EJF conversions remain valid, not all of us believe they were done halachically. I'm sorry to say this, but I would not allow them to marry into my family without investigating the details of their conversions. Tropper is a power freak, and there are reports that he strongarmed butai deenim that did not want to do certain conversions.

The mess that is going to result when children of all these gierim, both EJF/hardcore Israel and those by others who are not recognized by them, will greatly divide the Jewish people in the future.

Tropper did tremendous harm.

The mother of my children was m'gayer by a Bei...

2009-11-13T06:35:29.620+02:00

The mother of my children was m'gayer by a Beit Din that included R' James I. Gordon, a Young Israel rabbi. I think he got his smicha at REITS. Will Leib Tropper use that fact to invalidate my kids' Jewish status?

Along with R' Gordon, a'h', on the Beit Din was R' Joshua Sperka. In this photo from 1950, you can see that Rebbitzen Sperka did not cover her hair - at least not in 1950. As you can see, none of the other women in Rabbi Sperka's orthodox shul sisterhood covered their hair either, and many wore short sleeve blouses.

So I suppose that the Leib Troppers of the world would say that my ex's Beit Din was not a kosher orthodox Beit Din. That's where they run into a problem.

Rabbi Sperka's son Joel is the rav of B'nai Israel, a chareidi shul. If Leib Tropper thinks that R' Joshua Sperka, z't'l, was some kind of heretic, let him tell R' Joel Sperka that his father was not capable and authorized to sit on a Beit Din for giyur.

While Tropper is trying to explain to a stalwart chareidi rav how his father wasn't a good enough rabbi, he can think of what to tell the family of Rav Eliezer Levin, z't'l, who sat with Rabbis Gordon and Sperka as Av Beit Din.

If Rabbi Gordon or Rabbi Sperka were not sufficiently orthodox to sit on a court, what does that say about the head of that court? Will Leib Tropper say that R' Lazer Levin didn't know who was a kosher rav, let alone a proper candidate for conversion? True, Tropper has a fancy organization and millions of dollars under his control and many rabbis apparently under his sway. Rabbi Levin suasion was of a less material form. He had no lavishly endowed organization. He was a simple shul rav and head of the local va'ad. He followed the advice of his own rebbe who told him to talk to Jews, all kinds of Jews. His rebbe? R' Yisroel Meir Kagan.

So who are we going to believe, Leib Tropper or the Chofetz Chaim's last disciple?

"I don't mean that I agree with them; I&#...

2009-11-12T07:12:25.529+02:00

"I don't mean that I agree with them; I'm just saying that it's a real mess with no obvious way out."

The only way out is to stop pretending, against Torah, that one man can know all and can decide slone, and instead follow the Torah, and go sit together in a Sanhedrin.

There are plenty of people in the highest levels o...

2009-11-12T02:22:18.261+02:00

There are plenty of people in the highest levels of chareidi halachic structure who realize that recent claims are deceptive and constitute overreaching. But they are intimidated. If parents can be intimidated out of justice for their molested children, why should talmidei chachaim feel secure.

In effect, chareidi halachah is profoundly corrupted. If MO does not rebel, those who are intimidated will truly give up. We owe it to the best elements on the other side to hold the line on extremism. Yes it is awful that families will be cought in the middle. However, to paraphrase the Israeli argument, what can you do if the enemy is willing to endanger its own civilians for some advantage?

It may already be too late to reverse internal chareidi corruption. I just want to be clear that I am not necessarily talking about money, but about people whose official rulings do not reflect their true judgement. I am also talking about people who teach and talk and accept opposing arguments where they are abandoning their obligation to represent the truth as they know it. Forget about the daas torah debate. Let us just have simple truth.

For all its flaws, MO has much more integrity and less coercion in producing its authoritative rulings.

Yerachmiel Lopin (FrumFollies)

Actually, I'm slightly in favor in interpretin...

2009-11-12T00:03:26.579+02:00

Actually, I'm slightly in favor in interpreting Torah to make sure it jives with modern science so long as it's 100% clear that the one doing so is doing so /tentatively/ and he points out that either he or the scientists might be wrong.

Well, fortunately that problem doesn't exist w...

2009-11-11T19:40:43.747+02:00

Well, fortunately that problem doesn't exist with me, since I don't reinterpret Torah to fit with modern science.

... keeping in mind that sometimes modern knowledg...

2009-11-11T18:51:42.749+02:00

... keeping in mind that sometimes modern knowledge is mistaken.

I mean, just imagine if rabbis from the 60's had tried to show that the Torah is in line with geosynclinal theory. The layman are all happy now that there's harmony between Torah and science. Then one day, the theory, which was considered by a popular science textbook at the time as solid as evolutionary theory, is overturned in favor of plate techtonics.

What becomes of those people's faith? What becomes of their opinions of rabbis who keep reinterpreting Torah to fit with modern science?

I think the real chance to get the Torah in li...

2009-11-11T18:17:41.205+02:00

I think the real chance to get the Torah in line with modern knowledge was probably around 200 years ago

Of course, what I meant to say was, "get our understanding of the Torah in line with modern knowledge".

It seems to me that a person who reads the age...

2009-11-11T15:05:30.848+02:00

It seems to me that a person who reads the age of Earth and humanity and so on from Bereshis could not, by definition, be much of a "Gadol".

I wish it was that simple. Unfortunately, we are talking about people whose knowledge and understanding of large portions of the Torah is amazing. The problem is that they also have their big blind spots which they seem not to even be aware of and which, to a great extent they have inherited from previous generations. I think the real chance to get the Torah in line with modern knowledge was probably around 200 years ago, when the issues were fairly new and there was more freedom of interpretation inside of Judaism as well. Today's gedolim (and they are, within their limits) are kind of stuck. How can they say things the Chasam Sofer didn't say?

I don't mean that I agree with them; I'm just saying that it's a real mess with no obvious way out.

The Sages knew what they were doing when they made...

2009-11-11T07:53:17.609+02:00
The Sages knew what they were doing when they made us say Davka when we ask for good judges: והסר ממנו יגון ואנחה

It seems to me that a person who reads the age of ...

2009-11-11T04:18:35.169+02:00
It seems to me that a person who reads the age of Earth and humanity and so on from Bereshis could not, by definition, be much of a "Gadol". Pontificating that such a silly age for the Earth is a criterion for anything meaningful is a simultaneous declaration that the individual has no idea of the function of Torah...or, at best, the embedded limits of Torah knowledge.

The individual may be a good fund-raiser [no mean task in itself]. Or, perhaps, know how to administrate a yeshiva [again, no mean task]. & perhaps this should count as some level of "Gadol". But this type of person should not automatically be assumed to have top-notch Torah knowledge. It's unfair to them as individuals as the status of "Gadol" may cause a self-satisfaction with such silliness. When people afforded high status proclaim such goofballery with full emunah, it does at least two bad things. One, it is a cause of much misdirection of ba'al habatim or our children who attach authority to the afforded status. Second, it causes the masses who know better to have feelings of deep embarrassment for the "Gadol" and wonder "who in the world appoints such fools as masters of Torah".

Sincerely,
Gary Goldwater

Arutz Sheva reports: "According to Aguiar, &q...

2009-11-11T02:43:11.200+02:00
Arutz Sheva reports:
"According to Aguiar, "Tropper lied in the name of the biggest rabbis... They don't even know who he is. Unfortunately, these appointments in Israel to distribute the money by Leib [Tropper], never got there... including hospitals, yeshivas, wedding funds, girls' high schools, research institutes, and rabbi's medical funds."

In the immortal words of Dr. Who, "You can always judge a man by the quality of his enemies."

I'd say you're doing pretty well for yourself there, Rabbi Slifkin.

"There's got to be at least some of them ...

2009-11-10T15:30:07.586+02:00
"There's got to be at least some of them who would read your work with an open mind."

"Got to be" as in "I really hope there are" or as in "there must be"? Personally, I doubt it.

I'd rather not use my full name, but lets just...

2009-11-10T15:28:13.985+02:00
I'd rather not use my full name, but lets just say that I thought your critique of Chaim b'Emunasem was excellent, and seemingly very solid. (I'm shooting for 100%, though, which made me question your charge that his paper actually called for murder.)

My questions about how people would've blogged about controversial statements and actions of Talmudic sages are a separate interest of mine.

As far as the implications for the gedolim are concerned -- I don't know. If I were you, I'd try to win over the hearts of those who have the ear of these gedolim. There's got to be at least some of them who would read your work with an open mind.

Any comment about R' Caro's statement n...

2009-11-10T09:11:10.953+02:00
Any comment about R' Caro's statement now?

Yes, my comment is that it has absolutely nothing to do with what R. Schmeltzer cited it for.

Would you like to comment, with your full name, on your view of R. Schmeltzer's position, and its subsequent implications for the Gedolim who wrote a haskamah for it?

Eh, never mind, I see it on page 3 of your paper. ...

2009-11-10T07:39:27.294+02:00
Eh, never mind, I see it on page 3 of your paper.

"R. Schmeltzer takes the situation of such a “heretic” very seriously; in reference to this, he has a
footnote quoting the Shulchan Aruch that one should bring about the death of such a person
by any possible means."

As you wrote, this is awfully disturbing.

Any comment about R' Caro's statement now?

"Chaim B'Emunasam, which claims that ever...

2009-11-10T07:36:18.579+02:00
"Chaim B'Emunasam, which claims that every Jew is obligated to believe that every single word in the Gemara is from Sinai or else he is a heretic and should be killed,"

Could you remind of us of the /exact/ words the book said? Chayav Misa, perhaps?

"if the rabbis can make mistakes then why am ...

2009-11-10T00:39:20.447+02:00
"if the rabbis can make mistakes then why am I learning Bava Kamma"

Somehow I'd guess a more likely story would be a student who accepts the concept that Chazal could, on occasion, err in profane matters. Then the slippery slope and eventually the student claims Chazal erred about everything. But that's not what Tropper reports- an instantaneous rejection of Yiddishkeit due to the (student's) acceptance of an extremely high standard. The phrase thus reeks of fanatacism- one mistake makes an entire enterprise worthless? Any slight imperfection reduces a person to complete and utter unworthiness (and unworthy of conversion)? It's like burning down a supermarket because of one rotten egg! Who actually thinks this way? Could it be... Tropper?

While the EJF's behavior isn't good, I'...

2009-11-09T18:44:16.208+02:00
While the EJF's behavior isn't good, I'm a bit disturbed that you find the allegations of embezzlement to be less disturbing than Tropper's attitude towards conversions and related issues. While I understand your concern at a more systemic level, theft is theft and is at some level much more serious than halachic disputes.

I personally know two friends who are in the conve...

2009-11-09T10:19:13.457+02:00
I personally know two friends who are in the conversion process. I recently gave a shiur (with them in the audience) on the age of the universe, using R Yitzhok d'min Akko, etc. I am very afraid for thier conversion. One of them knows about these issues and is making sure to say all teh right things, but is this what we want? For convert to have to lie? sigh

Rabbi Slifkin, your post is a call to action; what...

2009-11-09T09:24:34.441+02:00
Rabbi Slifkin, your post is a call to action; what do you recommend we do?

For what it's worth, I write as someone not at all in the charedi world, but I suppose as an oleh, I am influenced by it indirectly.

רמב"ם הלכות סנהדרין פרק ב הלכה א אין מעמידי...

2009-11-09T06:13:15.971+02:00
רמב"ם הלכות סנהדרין פרק ב הלכה א

אין מעמידין בסנהדרין בין בגדולה בין בקטנה אלא אנשים חכמים ונבונים, מופלגין בחכמת התורה בעלי דיעה מרובה

Perhaps we should write a pamphlet which documents the statements by Rav Eisenstein et al, contrasts this with the Halachic requirement that judges not be ignorant in secular knowledge, states the threat to the nation, and then asks the reader to sign a formal declaration saying that he/she refuses to be judged by Dayanim who believe that the world is younger than 6,000 years, and demand from the State of Israel to provide enough religious courts with Dayanim who are not ignorant in secular knowledge. I think many would sign a well argued declaration of this kind.

"As it turned out the girl was a scientist an...

2009-11-09T03:34:19.939+02:00
"As it turned out the girl was a scientist and the EJF freaked her out with their insistence that she will believe in 6000 years old universe."

Call me a skeptic, but ths story rings as true as Tropper's dropout one.