Thursday, November 3, 2022

When It Gets Real

So, it looks like Netanyahu is returning to power. Rumor has it that this time she will let Bibi make some of the minor decisions. Ba-da-bum! 

No, but, seriously folks. While some are distressed by the election results to the point that I've seen people announce that they will not step foot in Israel while Ben Gvir is in the government, I don't think that things are quite the way that many people are taking them.

First of all, this was not, as some have declared, a choice by the Israeli people to reject Leftist policies. The election had very little to do with policies. It didn't even actually have much to do with Left and Right. There are plenty of people in Ganz's party who are more to the "right" than plenty of people in Likud - including being to the right of Bibi. And there are plenty of people in Shas and UTJ who don't care about "right" or "left" issues at all. Bibi's genius was fictitiously spinning the election as a battle against an existential Leftist threat to security and Judaism.

Second, the role of Ben Gvir and his associates is unlikely to play out in the way that he and his supporters hope. I've heard his supporters talk dreamily about annexing land and driving out the Arabs, but when you ask them how that actually would play out in practice, they go silent. Once you actually gain political power, you discover that you can't just do whatever you want, at least not without dealing with severe repercussions. 

It's one thing to talk about such things as "shooting stone-throwers in the head" and another thing to actually change the rules of engagement in such a way. The resulting cost to human life on both sides, and the national and international consequences, would be horrendous. There's a reason why Ben Gvir was banned from serving in the IDF. There are enough sensible people in charge - including Bibi - who will ensure that the extremist agenda is very unlikely to actually happen. His supporters are in for a big disappointment, and Ben Gvir himself might learn a thing or two about responsibility.

Unfortunately, what is true for extreme right-wing Zionist political power is not true for charedi political power. While the security and political downsides of extremist right-wing policies are immediate enough to place brakes on those who would act in such a way, the same cannot be said for the economic consequences of raising a third of the next generation without secular education. While the consequences of such a thing are catastrophic, they only play out a few decades from now - at which point it's too late to do anything about it anyway. 

Bibi has limited options to keep himself in power. He will presumably follow through on his election promise to United Torah Judaism that he will remove any financial incentive for teaching secular studies and undo the current government's successes in that area. This is depressing. But, as I told my colleagues, this makes our work at the Biblical Museum of Natural History - at which many of our visitors are charedi - all the more important. We have to show that learning about the wider world is something that enriches our lives as religious Jews.

School visits to the museum are heavily subsidized by our donors, because the schools just don't have the budget to pay full admission. If you'd like to help make it possible for us to continue to inspire and educate tens of thousands of people annually, please support our mission at this link or write to Tobey at advancement@BiblicalNaturalHistory.org.

172 comments:

  1. "fictitiously spinning the election as a battle against an existential Leftist threat to security and Judaism"

    Leaving aside the very arguable word "fictitious" (try telling someone in Akko or Lod or Sheikh Jarrah it's "fictitious") to be fair, Bibi didn't seem to be doing much of that spinning, unless he was seriously pulling strings from behind the scenes. All the talk of security and Judaism seemed to come from the various Tet factions. Bibi's campaign seemed to be to get out as many Likud voters as he could- who cares about convincing anyone else- and boy did he succeed.

    You know who *did* do a lot- perhaps the most- work in reaching beyond his natural constituency, and seems to have succeeded pretty well himself? The dreaded Ben-Gvir.

    "There's a reason why Ben Gvir was banned from serving in the IDF."

    That's really unfair. Lots of much crazier people have served in the IDF. Meir Kahane served in the IDF, for God's sake. If the danger is real, you stick them in a harmless position of the sort Lapid got for himself and which for some reason he seems very embarassed to admit to. (Lior Schlein: "I was a spokesman in the Air Force. It's what I did; I served for three years and I'm proud of my service. I'm not going to tell you I was a pilot in the bombing of the Iraqi reactor.") Ben-Gvir has had a target on his back since, as a stupid teenager (*all* teenagers are stupid) he stole Rabin's hood ornament, and the Left blamed him for Rabin's assassination shortly after. You know they tried to keep him from being a lawyer too, right? What was the danger there? If he was truly dangerous, he wouldn't have a gun license.

    Of course, you're right about his being in office. Perhaps the best thing for the relationship of Ben-Gvir and Israel is him getting some actual responsibility. R' Rakeffet, who was close to Meir Kahane, always bemoans that Kahane didn't accept the Likud's offer of a safe seat when he first made aliyah. (Due to some personal history, Kahane unfortunately didn't work well with others.) He could have mellowed out a bit and gotten some of his ideas implemented- who knows, he could have risen to the top- in a reasonable way.

    Personally, I don't think Ben-Gvir is the demon some people seem to think he is- I mean, some of the reactions from Diaspora Jews (and gentiles) are just ridiculous- but I think a ministership might do both him and Israel some good in more ways than one.

    As to the charedim...yeah, sigh. And unfortunately, the rabbis who run Tet have a real inferiority complex/love affair with charedim, and Bibi will never say anything bad about them either. (And let's be honest, pretty much every other party- Lapid, Gantz, Labor, even Meretz- apart from Lieberman has secret dreams of getting the charedim on their side and will never say anything bad about them either.)

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    1. "If he was truly dangerous, he wouldn't have a gun license."

      https://www.youtube.com/shorts/yCzTi5UI0UY

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    2. People were throwing rocks at him, Hat. Are you OK with that? Would you want me to throw a rock at you? Would you stand and take it?

      Edward Said once threw a rock over the Israeli border. A reporter from the NY Times went to his office and asked a Columbia security officer if it would be OK for him to throw a rock at it.

      I guess you're up there with Said's double standards, eh?

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    3. Ben Gvir is fine, it’s the other guy, Smotrich, one should be worried about. Did you see his comments on vaccines? Idiotic. His security policies are ok, but he’s definitely the type of guy to go wobbly in a position of power. He might have been promised some kind of seat, but hopefully it’s a very limited one. He’s just riding Ben Gvir’s coattails and residual loyalty to his party name.

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    4. No stone throwing here though

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjF_biXoRLY

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    5. Being threatened, though. Which is the crime of assault.

      Go ahead, side with the enemy.

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    6. Very true. After all, who amongst us hasn't pulled out a gun on a parking attendant?

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    7. Stay nice and safe in Blighty.

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    8. Yes, it was so brave of him to pull out a gun in a dispute over parking. He was definitely being threatened with a parking ticket (which is assault) and we all thank him for his service.

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    9. This hat mamzer is working overtime. In his typical English arrogant yet ignorant fashion, this kofer is spending all his time spewing half facts and misrepresentations, deluding himself that we all give a d@mn about his stuck up and stupid drivel.

      I actually find it quite entertaining.

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  2. This wasn't actually "a choice by the Israeli people to reject Leftist policies". The right wing block actually got a slight minority of votes. They are only set to receive a significant majority of Knesset seats because Meretz and Balad (a total of 6% of voters) fell below the threshold. If Meretz+Balad had passed the threshold (by combining with other left wing parties) then the Knesset would be tied 60-60, pretty much the same as after the last election, and probably Lapid would remain as PM until the next election.

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    1. Change "Israeli" to "Jewish" and the picture changes significantly.

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    2. Avi - these are the rules of the game. We have a representative democracy not a direct democracy cuz we don't want to deal with it all day every day. Sometimes it works in ways that are unfair. A few elections ago new right didn't pass threshold and it forced the first stalemate. USA electoral college or gerrymandering is also not fair. So it is what is. It'll never be perfect. Just imagine the chaos of 20 one man parties. Furthermore, some of those wasted voted went to anti an Israel Arab party that never planned on participating in gvt anyway. I wouldn't use them as part of the numbers.
      You are right about overreach though. If charedim act as if they have convinced the country that their position is the correct one, it will explode. Hopefully they slow down their expectations and work responsibly.

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    3. "Change "Israeli" to "Jewish" "

      You think non-Jews don't matter in Israel?

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    4. Nick - I'm not complaining. I'm just saying that there was basically no change in people's opinions from the previous elections. All that's different is that this time the leadership of the (far) left shot themselves in the foot with stupid electoral arrangements.

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    5. Charlie: They sure don't matter as much as Jews. Does this...trouble you?

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    6. I can elaborate in many ways. I suppose נפש יהודי הומיה is a good place to start. But of course people have ideas about that too.

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    7. I believe in the last agreement it was decided that they matter 3/5 as much as a Jew.

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    8. The Arab parties aren't leftists. The left currently supports Arabs because they are perceived as the underdog.

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    9. Isaac: You have no idea what the 3/5ths compromise was. But that's cool, most people don't.

      Anonymous: The Arabs ally with the Left because the Left gives them what they want. Same as charedim and the Right.

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    10. The Charedim are generally right wing, even though I personally am not.

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    11. Charedi *parties*.

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  3. This kinda sounds like naivete. "Just give the lunatic a position, he'll realize he needs to behave", they said the same about trump. Didn't work out too well.

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    1. When Ehud Barak ran against Ariel Sharon, they were saying how Sharon will lead us all to war. If there was any "war", it was Operation Defensive Shield, which was due to the suicide bombings of the Second Intifada, which Sharon inherited from Barak.

      In actuality, when Sharon became PM, he said how things look different when you're PM ("מה שרואים מכאן, לא רואים משם"). The Disengagement was the last thing anything expected from him.

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  4. By the way, speaking of rash campaign slogans not quite being translated into actual action, the huge deal the Right made over the Lebanon deal in the last few weeks- even, disgracefully, dragging it into the Supreme Court- looks to fizzle down to nothing. A few days *before* the election Bibi made a bunch of waffling noises that made it clear that under him the deal will remain standing exactly as signed. So either it wasn't as big a disaster as everyone, up to a certain former US ambassador (who explicitly admitted he had no idea what the agreement actually said before attacking it), assured us, or Bibi realizes he *can't* do anything about it, or Bibi doesn't have the guts *to* do anything about it, or all of the above. None of that says anything good about him, but so long as the result is OK, I don't mind.

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    1. There's a third possibility to consider:

      Nothing in the Lebanese deal could conceivably impinge upon Israel's economic and security interests - to the contrary - and that all the rhetoric from rightists before the election was made in bad faith.

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    2. That's *exactly* what I said.

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    3. You said either he couldn't do anything about the deal, or that he could but doesn't have the guts to do something about the deal. You never entertained the possibility that in truth there was nothing about the deal that needed doing.

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    4. Here are my exact words:

      "So either it wasn't as big a disaster as everyone, up to a certain former US ambassador (who explicitly admitted he had no idea what the agreement actually said before attacking it), assured us,"

      You can go up and read it.

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  5. The security situation is anything but "fictitious" I live in the Gush and there are now rock attacks and molotov attacks every day. Sometimes multiple times a day. So yes security was a big deal

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    1. The Jews are outkilling the Arab 8:1 counting only innocent civilians. You get one eighth of my sympathy.

      You may feel more secure living in the sovereign territory of the Jewish state rather than in the land occupied temporarily by the Israeli military for security reasons, which is currently the legal position of the Israeli government explaining why it has any presence in the West Bank at all.

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    2. The US killed a lot more German and Japanese civilians than the other way around. So?

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    3. Hat you are committing a fallacy. The question is not how many actually die, but how many attempted attacks are carried out. The fact that Jews living in Israel only get one eighth of your sympathy, while the other seven eighths go to their (and your!) sworn enemies, should give you profound pause.

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    4. Nachum, leaving other civilians aside, what about the nuclear victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? I classify those as terrorism and war crimes.

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    5. That is factually incorrect. Compare Axis killings of civilians to Allied killing of civilians and you will find it around 14:1.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

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    6. What in the world??!!! Hiroshima/Nagasaki was NOT terrorism or war crimes!
      And why leave the other civilians aside, are they chopped liver?? The number of civilian deaths from other bombings and causes was far more than those from the nuclear bombs!

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    7. Mevasertzion won't provide statistics on Jewish attacks on Arab civilians or vice versa. His aim is not to fairly evaluate the truth. It is to achieve paralysis through faux analysis.

      I know the truth, the whole world knows the truth, and even
      mevaseretzion knows the truth.

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    8. I said *American* civilians. A few American civilians were killed at Pearl Harbor and that's pretty much it. (A lot of the Merchant Marine were killed, but that's a different matter. Also there were Japanese prisoner camps.) The US then killed a whole *lot* of German and Japanese civilians.

      The British killed a whole lot more German civilians than Germans killed Brits, of course.

      I have no idea how anyone can classify the atomic bombings as "terror." The US and Japan had formally *declared war* on each other. (Declarations of war are matters of the distant past.) As to "war crimes," that's a silly concept. I think it was Churchill who said that "war *is* crime." He was opposed to Nuremberg- he felt the Nazi leaders should have just been lined up and shot right after the war- and I'm not sure he was wrong. And, as pointed out, a lot more Japanese were killed in conventional bombings. And Germans too, of course.

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    9. "I live in the Gush and there are now rock attacks and molotov attacks every day"

      Move to Israel. That stuff doesn't happen here.

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    10. Somehow the subject changed to hat's sympathy. Hat's sympathy is entirely undemocratic, nobody gets to vote on it. Yeshiva Bochur is explaining how security issues are relevant to him and his friends.

      Hat's sympathy is worth as much as his hat is.

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    11. Neither Hiroshima nor Nagasaki were even in the top 15 cities destroyed in Japan. Firebombing was just as (more, actually) destructive.

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    12. Nachum, I know what you said. It was such obvious attempt at cherry picking I ignored it.

      You obviously have no idea about the Japanese massacres of white European civillians, Koreans and Chinese, the German Blitz, only the actual Holocaust, and the various other atrocities which made it clear that in World War 2, Might alone was not Right.

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    13. Nachum's fundamental point is that we have entirely misunderstood history.

      Killing civillians is not objectionable. The Allies were simply more powerful, not necessarily good guys, and the Nazis were their moral equivalents.

      In his Voldemort conception of the world, there is no good and evil, there is only power, and those too weak to seek it.

      Morality for Nachum is a decadent extravagance.

      This is coming from a man who berated me for my irreligisiosity - what a fine Yom Kippur he must have had, praying to whatever his monstrous deity he concocted for exercising too little oshek yad.

      I say that Right and Wrong are real. I say that the Germans and the US are not morally equivalent. I say that there is such a thing as Justice.

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    14. @ happygolucky

      "Hiroshima/Nagasaki was NOT terrorism or war crimes!"

      Targeted civilians on a massive scale. Please tell me your definition of terrorism or of war crimes.

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    15. David, saying any targeting civilians = war crime is far too simplistic, especially in the context of WW2, and especially in the context of the Japanese. In reality, it was lifesaving on massive scale.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki#Support

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    16. So you continue to lie about “the Jews”. In RNS post previously about Ben Gvir you said it was 10:1. I asked you for a source, and you supplied one (disreputable one that accepts all the Hamas lies) that had it down to about 6:1. (I searched for your source via your link - wasn’t there.) Of course you didn’t bother correcting yourself then, and now you’re back up to 8:1. So keep on lying, gaslighting, whatever.

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    17. Hat, how many people were killed in Germsn bombing of England? Look it up.

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    18. If you ever do set foot on these sceptered isles, I'd like to take you around. This map shows around 25 bombs which the Luftwaffe dropped within 15 minutes of where I am writing to you today. I have a relative who lived two houses down.

      http://bombsight.org/#16/51.5813/-0.2211

      To be fair to the Germans, the old RAF Hendon (abandoned as a front line air defence field in 1938 in favour of RAF Northolt, but the Germans didn't necessarily know that) is around 1.5 miles North West. It is now a museum.

      If I wanted to see German bomb damage today, I suggest you schedule a visit to Pardes House school. Across the road is an 800 year old church, except that the East wing of that church is only around 50 years old. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Mary-at-Finchley_Church

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    19. To remind readers, Btselem, which covers facts racists would rather you did not know, recorded 4,932 Palestinians killed by Israelis in the 12 years to 31 August 2022 (4,905 by the IDF and 27 by settler terrorists).

      A total of 848 Israeli civilians have been killed by Palestinians in the same period, mainly during the second Intifadah.

      For the ten year period ending 31 August 2022, it is 3,737 Palestinian dead for 97 Israeli civillians. 38 to 1, Binyomin - put that in your pipe and smoke it.

      A significant proportion of the Israeli public still nurture the deluded belief that they are overall the victims here.

      If there is a moral difference between 38:1 to 6:1 and 8:1 or 10:1 it has utterly escaped me. I am in all material respects correct.

      Binyomin asks for figures and supplies none of his own. That is the gaslighting.

      Although he pretends not to have taken a side, the implications of his query - which was that he disbelieved that the Israelis are overall much more likely to be the perpetrators of aggression against civilians and overall much less likely to be the victims of such aggression - have been disproven. and it would be appropriate for him to acknowledge that single salient fact.

      Of course Binyomin does not care for facts which hurt his feelings. He will acknowledge nothing, but at least he can have the good grace to be silent.

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    20. @hat

      So now it’s 38:1. The only one smoking anything here is you. B’Tselem’s ‘numbers’ are wholly fictitious, based on the ridiculous lies of Hamas and others. The ‘thousands’ of Palestinians killed include the Hamas thugs who die as a direct result of the decisions taken by Hamas management in Gaza and Iran. There’s a simple point here. No one needs to die. Not a single Palestinian dies when Hamas or the Lions of Whatever don’t attack civilians. It’s just tragic that you somehow feel a need to glorify death and promote an agenda of nihilism and destruction - which is exactly what you do.

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    21. Let's see how much you like vexatious gaslighting.

      You state thousands of Palestinian civilians are killed by Hamas.

      In the space provided below you will not provide a source for that erroneous and false statement. You will carp, hum, and haw, but you will be beaten at your own game.

      The correct figure is around 100.

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    22. You don't have to tell me that Germany bombed Britain. But about 50,000 British civilians were killed in all bombings. A lot more German civilians were killed in bombings.

      And- here's my point- I have no problem with that. But anti-Semites like Hat should, to be consistent.

      Of course, they probably do. These people's motto is "My country and my people, always wrong."

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    23. I have no consistency issue. I consistently deplore the loss of civilian human life.

      I deplore the killing of Eitan and Na'ama Jenkins, which you will be will aware of.

      The problem is that you are unaware of the fact that in the last ten years, 37 Palestinian men, women and children have been killed for every tragic victim like Rabbi Henkin. Nobody posts about these victims in your Facebook. Rabbi Doctor Slifkin never writes anguished and outraged posts for Arabs shot in the face by the IDF for no reason. The depth and mass of human loss is imperceptible to your world, sanitised and unmentioned.

      You'll never know their names. You'll never grieve for their children and parents.

      But you can count.

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    24. I’m sorry if you’re unwell. I said no such thing. I said that the fake ‘statistics’ included the dead Hamas ‘fighters’.

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    25. @happy... whether or hiroshima savesives it was still wrong morally to target civilians.
      Look up "just war theory" on Wikipedia..
      Just war conduct should be governed by the principle of distinction. The acts of war should be directed towards enemy combatants, and not towards non-combatants caught in circumstances they did not create. The prohibited acts include bombing civilian residential areas that include no legitimate military targets, committing acts of terrorism or reprisal against civilians or prisoners of war (POWs), and attacking neutral targets."

      @hat..neither is it a simple numbers game of "who killed more?" You need to factor in who is attacking and who is defending, and who was deliberately targeting civilians and who was making effort not to attack civilians, and then analyse the numbers accordingly.

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    26. No Binyomin, they don't. I excluded combatants.

      You have no numbers of your own, you keep using words like "fake", when you are the obfuscator of truth. If you had your own figures, you would have brought them. You just don't like the truth.

      This is the truth. For every

      1

      Rabbi Henkin Israeli civilian killed in cold blood in the last 10 years,

      1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13,14, 15,16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24 ,25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37

      nameless Palestinian civilians were killed by the state of Israel or by Jewish terrorists.

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    27. Not a fan - I'm counting civilian deaths only, not combatants or suspected combatants on either side.

      If you've got more sophisticated data, bring it on and I'll consider it seriously.

      Otherwise, it looks mightily like me like you are trying to achieve paralysis by analysis.

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    28. Yes, you deplore the killing of the Jenkinses [sic] so much you don't know what his first name is.

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    29. @hat

      You can lie all you want. To be clear: there is no statistic given in the B’Tselem site for ‘Palestinian civilian’ deaths vs. ‘Israeli civilian’ deaths. The numbers for the Palestinian dead include all of the Hamas militants etc. Talk about gaslighting. But let’s take a different set of statistics: how many Israeli civilians does Hamas want to kill? Again, your nihilism and willful obfuscation of reality ignores this simple fact: no Palestinians in Gaza, or Jenin, die when no missiles are fired or ‘Lions’ attack. From Arafat’s billions to every other corrupt monied Arab terrorist, the root is money. So the Iranians keep pumping in money to fan the flames, and the venal terrorist leadership gets rich while murdering Israelis and causing their own cannon fodder to die, sacrificed on the altar of secret villas in Switzerland and France.

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    30. Have you ever heard of auto-correct, Mr Boomer?

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    31. Not a fan, sorry that makes no sense. See the wikipedia article I cited, explains in great detail why the bombing was so moral. The distinction between combatants and non-combatants is artificial and context-dependent. Combatants are also generally caught in circumstances they didn't create.

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    32. There is a "Participation in hostilities" filter that I used. It's on the left hand side, where you can use it to explore reality to your heart's content. You should spend some time on that site and learn about the world.

      -

      One of the things that you might learn is that Palestinians are killed on an almost weekly basis al lo davar, completely unconnected with Gaza or missiles. A selection of recent scandals: -

      Eyal Hallaq, who had special needs, was shot for being unable to communicate with the mishtarat gevul which made them suspicious.

      Nabil Ghanem was shot dead for crossing into Israel from the West Bank. He was unarmed and not suspected of any involvement in violence, but IDF polcy permits shooting at border crossings.

      Thaer Mislet was killed near Psagot for being on the scene during stone throwing. Eyewitnesses confirm he was not involved.

      Omar Muhammad 'Abd al-Majid As'ad died in the custody of Nahal Haredi soldiers who threw him into a building site handcuffed and left him there after an argument at a check point.

      Shireen Abu Aqleh was shot in the face by the IDF while responsibly doing her job as a journalist. Her colleague was shot in the neck and survived.

      -

      You ask me to focus on intent rather than outcomes and you claim, characteristically providing no evidence, that Palestinians have more murderous intentions that Israelis.

      I would love to live in a world in which everyone only thought happy and nice thoughts, but I think making sure everyone can live deserves rather more attention.

      -

      You seem to believe, against all common sense, that Palestinians are quite happy to live under the yoke of foreign occupation, and that it is only financial corruption which makes them rise up.

      Israel's elite is very much corrupted. You can buy quite a bit of Swiss villa with the 3 billion USD submarine kickback scandal. Yet, the Zionist dream is still alive: to be a free nation in our own land.

      If for one moment you think that the Palestinian sense of nationhood and their desire to be a free nation in their own land is any bit less strong than the Zionist sense of nationhood, you are in abject denial.

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    33. @hat

      I’ve been away - but wanted to say that your skills at fiction are as good as ever. $3 billion? You’re smoking too much, @hat. Meanwhile Die Welt has published lots of stuff about the $500 million Hamas has stolen around the globe (it’s actually more, but that’s what they found).

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    34. https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-signs-scandal-ridden-e3-billion-deal-with-germany-to-buy-new-submarines/

      The submarines in question cost 3,000,000,000 Euros. The amount of that siphoned off in bribes may be quantified at a trial involving only the prime minister of the state of Israel.

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  6. Agree with @Avi - plus the gross ineptitude of Lapid’s campaign - and let’s not forget the sheer stupidity of allowing Moldovan cab drivers with a grudge to attack the Haredi sector in the most picayune and childish ways. Just not smart politics. In a country where things are so wafer thin vote-wise the previous government didn’t tend to business.

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  7. The Arab vote is what has led to the chaos and paralysis of the government. Without Arab participatation there is no question which side has a clear majority. Democracy is supppsed to be a government by the people, but in Israel it prevents the people from ruling their own country. Democracy is a fraud.

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    1. Should us Jews get a vote in the United States or the United Kingdom or are we not real people?

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    2. A national minority that subverts the very existence of the state shouldn't vote and should be removed. This applies to the Jews in the countries where they reside like to any other nation.

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    3. Does being a Jew automatically count as being subversive in a traditionally Christian majority country?

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    4. I never said anything about subversive. Subversives are subversive. But that doesn't mean that minorities aren't minorities- yes, even in wonderfully tolerant countries like the US or the UK. Or, oh, 19th century Germany. Or, oh, 14th century Spain. A lot (not all, but a lot) of Jewish troubles begin when Jews forget that.

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    5. Nachum, are you in favour of discriminating against minorities or opposed to it? You seem to indulge in histrionics from both positions.

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    6. Government discrimination? Of course not.

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    7. Should the Government of Israel discriminate against Arab minorities?

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    8. Of course not. Up until they get transferred out.

      That's what you wanted to hear, right?

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    9. Should Jews be transferred out?

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    10. I apologise. Let me be clearer. When the Jews were expelled from England by the Edict of Expulsion, what is your moral objection to that, if any?

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  8. God allowed the Jewish nation to survive whilst spread throughout the world under the worst persecution of any people, as predicted in Tanach (deut 28.) Then he miraculously brought them back to the land of their heritage as predicted as well. Buuuuttt they didn't pursue a sober economic policy so the entire prophecy fell thru, LOL. Is belief in God and Torah so esoteric and theoretical that you actually think this will be the demise of the Jewish people?

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    1. When they talk about the Chareidim as an "existential threat" to Israel, they mean a threat to the modern and especially the secular character of the country. After all, there were many religiously repressive countries that managed to exist just fine, both throughout history, and even now. But to the complainers, a threat to secularism, to full gender equality, to LGBTQ rights, to freedom to be an outspoken atheist = existential threat.

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    2. "When they talk about the Chareidim as an "existential threat" to Israel, they mean a threat to the modern and especially the secular character of the country." No they don't. They mean a threat to the economy, because chareidim are woefully undereducated and underemployed. And "they" includes Jonathan Rosenblum writing in Mishpacha.

      Delete
    3. " Is belief in God and Torah so esoteric and theoretical that you actually think this will be the demise of the Jewish people?" I guess you're not familiar with Rambam's view as to why the original State of Israel fell. He says that it was because they were too involved in superstitions and did not master warcraft well enough.

      Delete
    4. The evolutionary more fit will prevail.

      Delete
    5. Who cares about Jonathan Rosenblum's mistaken opinion? It is not an "existential threat" except in his and your imagination. There are many poor, undereducated, underemployed nations that continue to exist. The State of Israel itself was founded under much worse economic circumstances than Israel will ever be in. So stop fretting and relax. Unless you are worried about the "existential threat" of "religious extremism", which I am proud to say, the Chareidim have in abundance! כן ירבו!!!

      About the Rambam in his letter, sorry, it is in complete contradiction to everything in the Neviim and Chazal. צע"ג on that Rambam, but it does not represent the view of the Torah in any way.

      Delete
    6. @RNS - You're not answering my question; Do you think that the economic policy will lead to the failure of the already obvious and compelling biblical prophecy?

      It's like my big tayna on Satmar; do they think this gathering to the land as predicted is some sort of coincidence, and we'll really all leave the land and come back in a kosher manner to fulfill the prophecy for real, with the original return just being a fakeout? How contrived.

      You place too much stock in your rational sensibilities without realizing Hashem has already decimated the odds.

      Regarding Rambam, it's one thing to incorporate empirical sciences and philosophy. It's another thing to essentially cleanse your worldview of divinity and faith.

      Delete
    7. It is trivial to state that fighting to the death with your neighbours does not confer a survival advantage upon our species.

      Delete
    8. "There are many poor, undereducated, underemployed nations that continue to exist"

      This is supposed to be a defense of the Haredi lifestyle? Lol. They don't fund first world armies, or modern health care. And who on Earth would want to live there. I can see why you troll this blog instead of the daf.

      Delete
    9. We've heard "the Charedim are an existential threat" fearmongering and spin for at least thirty years. I was in Israel in the 90s and recall the left claiming that if not somehow stopped, or if they still refuse the draft, in 20 years Israel will be destroyed. And here we are more than 20 years later, and none of the left's dire warnings ever happened.

      On the other hand, you know what the right was screaming? I know, because I was there. They screamed that if you give the Arabs guns, they would use it against us. They screamed that if you withdraw from the shtachim, it would be used to foster and then hide terrorists. And they screamed that it would be interpreted as weakness that would only encourage terror. And RL, we all saw what happened. So forgive us, NS, if we take your latest warnings with a big grain of salt.

      (PS, my in-laws and family were at the museum over yomtov, had a good time.)

      Delete
    10. "This is supposed to be a defense of the Haredi lifestyle? Lol. They don't fund first world armies, or modern health care. And who on Earth would want to live there."

      Torah and mitzvos are infinitely more important than "first world" this and "first world" that. Who would want to live there?-- Certainly not you... it would not be a hospitable place for you for far more than economic reasons. But don't worry, there are plenty of other "first world" countries where you could live your secular hedonistic lifestyle.

      Delete
    11. "There are many poor, undereducated, underemployed nations that continue to exist."

      True. Places like Yemen and jungle Africa. You believe if Israel becomes like that, torah and mitzvos will get a look-in? The quality and quantity of any torah or mitzvos in that sort of place will be a fraction of what they are now.

      Delete
    12. I'm not sure what "jungle Africa" means, but it does sound unnecessarily racist. Apologies if you didn't mean it that way.

      To the main point, Torah and mitzvos existed for 3000 years under far more primitive circumstances than almost all "third world" countries today. True, modern wealth and technology has allowed the growth in the quality and quantity of Torah and mitzvos in some ways, as you correctly assert- but it has also posed terrible challenges, and led to the decline of Torah and mitzvos in other ways, and it is far from clear that it balances out.

      But we don't even need to go there. Not every poor country is "jungle Africa". There are plenty of undereducated and underemployed countries that are not terrible or violent places at all. Countries with less than half the GDP per capita of Israel include Chile, Nepal, Thailand, Peru, Bhutan. These places are all less violent than the US. Sure, they don't have as high of a life expectancy. But they are not in an "existential crisis" by any means.

      But even more importantly, there is no reason to believe that Chareidi behavior won't change as their population grows. People change depending on their circumstances. Chareidim in the US don't behave the same as Chareidim in Israel. The vast majority work out of necessity, because the US is not a socialist welfare state. Non-working Chareidim in Israel simply won't be able to grow beyond a certain percentage of the population, and as the money runs out, they WILL work to prevent the decline of their own circumstances. The idea of an "existential crisis" is a dystopian fantasy contrived by hysterical people who read too much science fiction.

      Delete
    13. Sure, poor countries can survive - but not when they need to constantly defend themselves against much larger and more powerful countries.

      Delete
    14. You make no sense. The State of Israel was founded and attained victory over much larger and more powerful countries when it was a poor country, much poorer than it will ever be. Maybe you think that was just a fluke? Or a ma'aseh Satan? 😂😂

      And besides for the obvious counterexample of the founding of the State itself, you really think poor countries can't survive in the presence of hostile wealthier countries? Basically every country in the world is a counterexample- Pakistan is much poorer than India. India is poorer than China. China is poorer than the US. I could bring many more contemporary and historical examples. Your statement has zero basis in reality.

      Delete
  9. <>
    Really? How is it in the previous four elections Bibi camp could not get more than 60, and now they got 65? How is it Meretz got out? The answer is simple: the past year have showed the people what they are getting with the socialists/secularists.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Looking at the numbers it looks like the larger majority is entirely because of disunity among Arabs and Leftists. Had Meretz and Labor run on one slate and had Balad not separated from Hadash, very different discussions would be occurring.

      Delete
    2. And if my grandmother had wheels...

      Delete
    3. Let me be more clear: Meretz *did* run with Labor an election or two ago. Otherwise it's been dancing on the edge for a while. (Labor has been too.) Its time was probably going to come sooner or later, and it finally came. Well below 10% of Israeli Jews call themselves left-wing. No one really believes in socialist economic policies any more, and pretty much every Israeli realizes that attempting "peace" with the Palestinians is foolish and dangerous. The only thing Meretz had left to run on was gay stuff, and that can only get you so far.

      Bayit Yehudi also fell below the threshold, although apparently that was part of the plan to drive Meretz and Balad under.

      Despite all the talk of the Likud "revolution" of 1977, the real reason it happened was because there was a short-lived, very large centrist party running that year. The only reason Labor came to power in 1992 was because of right-wing factionalism. Doesn't change the results. Right-wingers and left-wingers alike like to comfort themselves into thinking they didn't "really" lose, but of course they did.

      Delete
    4. I read in one account that some 10-20 thousand anti-vaccine mandate voters abandoned Meretz after the performance of the outgoing Meretz health minister and went to either one of small parties that didnt make it in or to labor.
      Similar voters in likud moved to RZ.

      Delete
  10. Personally, I don't trust Bibi. He has a history of betrayal, and politicians very rarely change. Do I think he is any more corrupt than any other politician? No. Among other things. He does seem more crafty.

    That being said, if the results basically stand as is when confirmed, and a coalition is offered along the lines that everyone basically assumes, it could portend a monumental shift with a government more responsive to the mores of the Jewish people that should easily make it to sell-by date, and not end prematurely. Gone would be spoilers like Lieberman and betrayers (for want of a better word) and "pretenders to the crown" (it's a joke, okay?) like Bennett, Shaked, and Saar.

    Even if not, it is still a remarkable victory in general for the anyone but anyone-but-Bibi crowd. I pray it is not Pyrrhic.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Bibi is head above the crowd in his ability and intelligence.
      His granson made a siym hashas on his barmitzva. His son Avner https://www.mako.co.il/news-israel/education/Article-af7a6bd33976721004.htm

      My grandaughter only votes for ביבי מלך ישראל. She says: 'I only know Bibi, he was the king since I was born and I don't care for anyone else. He is the best and the only'. LOL!

      Bibi posesses superior genes. You can make a brocha on him.

      Delete
    2. I'll take the bet with you if you are offering - I give this Knesset 24 months maximum. The prime minister is facing criminal charges. The police minister is a thug. The US will react. The financial markets will react. The NIS has already depreciated.

      Delete
    3. It's fascinating when charedim enthusiastically gush over a mechallel Shabbat and serial adulterer who married out.

      Delete
    4. The Hat, you are charged with criminal retardery on three counts:

      1. The election results are not final.
      2. The coalition we all expect (of the four not anything but Bibi parties) has not been voted on.
      3. The entire world is in the midst of a massive deflationary incident. The Israel market and currency are reacting to that, not any political shenanigans you consider outrageous but which are par for the course even in Western states. When the Fed raises rates, as just happened again, everyone listens. There is also no Police Minister Itamar ben Gvir. That should be separate count, but I'll be lenient.

      Delete
    5. So I propose that if this government lasts until 23:59PM Universal Coordinated Time of the second day of November in the year 2024 of the Gregorian calendar, I will be found guilty of the criminal charges laid out in your complaint.

      However, if a new Knesset is called by that point, you agree to stop gratuitously using a deprecated medical term as an insult.

      Deal?

      Delete
    6. Even were I to take a bet, until there is something to bet on (ie a government is formed and its composition is known), there is nothing to discuss. Retards like to talk a lot about the hypothetical as if it were actual, despite that being very irrational.

      Delete
    7. "Bibi possesses superior genes. You can make a brocha on him"

      Whoahh!!! Let's set some things straight here! While he is definitely more sympathetic towards Torah values (so long as the constellations line up right politically, think 2013), he is an atheist egotistical mushchas. Mechalel Shabbos B'farhesya. Boel Niddos.

      The only bracha you can make on him is ברוך שהבדילנו מן התועים!

      Delete
    8. Shimshon, people might take you more seriously if you avoided using juvenile and deeply inappropriate words like "retard"

      Delete
    9. David Staum, I have demonstrated repeatedly here that they don't and won't. Therefore, I don't care about your advice. But your advice is not retarded. Thank you for your service.

      Delete
    10. What do you expect from a guy who gets scammed by Vox Day?

      Delete
    11. Seriously, are retards so retarded they can't restrain themselves from attacking someone using a completely retarded argument or mention the dreaded Vox Day in a completely irrelevant manner? Please, Blueberry, explain how I was scammed by Vox Day. In the retarded manner of rationalists, cite a source for your claim. Or a claim that anyone was scammed or defrauded by Vox Day. There is an actual Federal court case as well as a related SEC investigation, neither of which name or implicate him. I feel retarded just asking. One, because citations never change anyone's mind and two, because there is no proof to your claim.

      The Hat, regarding your bet, there is plenty of downside for me and none for you. Being a retard is far from the worst of your problems. None of which perturbs you.

      Delete
    12. Do you have any proposals as to what should be a fair forfeiture on my part?

      Delete
    13. Spoken like a true mark.

      Delete
    14. The Hat, make teshuva, which you should do regardless.

      Delete
    15. Just how do you come up with these ingenious insults?

      Delete
    16. Blueberry, if they are so ingenious, maybe you underestimate me?

      Technically, gamma is a label for a collection of behaviors. It only works as an insult on an actual gamma. Why would I, not a gamma or a retard, care if a gamma or a retard calls me such? Likewise, why would I care if they bristle at my use of either or both of those terms?

      You care about being called a retard, even my very use of the word. You don't care about being called a "hater of Hashem" (as per Rabbenu Yonah), even though it is just as accurate a description of what you are. Logically, rationally, therefore, I use what works, and discard what doesn't. If Rabbenu Yonah had been aware of the term in his day and its potency, he might have even used the more pedantic phrase "retarded haters of Hashem" instead.

      Delete
    17. I'm wondering what Teshuva would look like if the category of sin is a prohibited evidence based belief.

      I mean, you also know that the Torah was written by humans. That's why you're not arguing facts and evidence with me, and going straight for the KOFER button, even though the only person in denial is you. It looks like both of us need Teshuva for knowing forbidden truths. Let me know how it goes.

      Delete
    18. Some people wouldn't recognize sarcasm if it smacked them in the face :⁠-⁠)

      Delete
    19. Blueberry, sarcasm is childish and immature in spoken form but absolutely not discernible when written. In any case, you obviously are too short for the ride or you would have understood that my response was appropriately sarcastic in response. Did you really take me for a retard?

      The Hat, you have nothing of interest to offer me. You offered a bet, not an argument. And I don't care for what passes as argument here. It's just a pointless back and forth between people I agree with and people I don't. The people I agree with should just give up on the back and forth and go right for the thermonuclear retard button. It would save a lot of time and frustration.

      You can revisit this issue one year from the date a government is formed if you would like. If you are right, you will then be entitled to one "I told you so" and one raspberry directed my way. If I am right, then I will be satisfied knowing that I am right, again.

      Delete
    20. If you stretch to two years, we have a deal.

      Delete
    21. "I can't tell that you were being sarcastic, but anyway, I was being sarcastic too!" Just cut another check to Vox Day; that'll soothe your rage against the world.

      Delete
    22. Blueberry: Says something sarcastic.

      Shimshon: Sarcastic retort.

      Blueberry: Assumes Shimshon was oblivious to original sarcasm; gammasplains the obvious.

      Shimshon: You retard.

      Delete
    23. Keep flailing.

      Delete
  11. Bibi is the longest serving PM in Israeli history. He's been returned by the people, time and again and again. He's served admirably in the army and abroad. The security of the country is in vastly better shape than under his predecessors. The economy has boomed under his watch. Even his critics, like NS, begrudgingly admit that Israel is in very good shape. And he's done all this in the face of a press hostile to all Likud generally. He's a statesman of THE highest order. Anyone who criticizes him (beyond standard policy critiques) is basically criticizing the state of Israel and its people. ENOUGH SAID!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Anyone who criticizes him (beyond standard policy critiques) is basically criticizing the state of Israel and its people." Winner of the "Silliest Comment of 2022" award!

      Delete
    2. What if someone is OK with his policies but not his personality? Is that allowed?

      Delete
    3. Nachum - yes, that's OK. And one can criticize his policies, too. BUT the claim that his ego is somehow any more than any other PM, or the claim that he, more than any other politician, puts his own interests before the country, or that he is corrupt, or all the other foolish commentary we've seen, is nauseating. The "criminal" prosecution ploy hasn't fooled anyone. The people aren't buying it. An undeserving leader might sneak by an entire country once. But it's not going to happen time and time again. If anyone is still that worried about Bibi, it simply means he thinks he's smarter than the rest of Israel. Gee, do we know anyone around here like that?

      Delete
    4. @lawrence
      I challenge your assessment of bibi. His early years were very good but in later years he failed big time. First economically: twice bringing israel into deficits of over 20 billion ils, and failing to address the rising cost of housing, and failing to bring haredim into the job market,, or to improve the job potential of those on the socio-economic periphery. Politically, he deliberately exploited and widened the right-left gap in Israel for political gain, and then changed the likud from being a Liberal secular party into an empty shell devoid of values and policies other than power for the sake of power. Internationally he damaged Israel's long term relationship with the USA by making us a political issue dividing Democrats and Republicans, damaged the connections between Jews in Israel and Jews abroad, and there were no benefits to Israel from his cosying up to putin. Finally, yeah he was indicted of crimes and instead of resigning as would have been the decent thing to do, he began attacking the legal mechanisms of the state for his own benefit. Because of him the likud's attitude is basically "if its against the law, then we will just change the law." And he now leads a coalition of MKs with criminal records, damaging the moral stature of Israel. I voted for someone else.

      Delete
    5. Not to mention the fact that rather than being considered an international statesman of the highest order ", he is generally considered by politicians both at home and abroad to be a liar and untrustworthy.

      Delete
    6. All the Bibi-love reminds me of this..
      https://www.theonion.com/very-important-man-one-of-the-main-guys-where-he-works-1849435375

      Delete
    7. Not a fan - I have no qualms with not supporting Bibi. I don't agree with your characterizations of him, but its obviously pointless to debate politics. My point is that the EXTRA-political stuff, ie, beyond simple policy differences, at this point has become cartoonish. This is the man the people want, how many times does it need to be said. They've obviously rejected the attempts to portray him as a crooked sinister shyster. To persist in such silliness is to ignore the people of Israel.

      Delete
    8. I haven't given up on Am Yisrael coming to their senses and realising that having a crook (be it bibi, Deri litzman, gafni or others) is bad thing.
      שונאי בצע and all that...
      It maybe fighting against the zeitgeist in the frum world but still. I have hope.

      Delete
    9. You’re completely missing the point. The word “crook” is spin, has no ממשות. The public is saying they’re not falling for it. What matters is policy. Policy, policy, policy, and policy. If you don’t like Bibi’s or any right-wingers policies, that’s your absolute right. Disagreement is healthy. But again, altogether now - everything else is characterization, opinion-based, and subjective.

      Delete
    10. It's not spin. It's a legal situation to be decided by the courts. In fact his indictment is already a matter of fact. People tend to ignore that...

      Delete
    11. Sigh. I give up!

      Delete
  12. When the nukes start flying in Ukraine, we'll talk again about how "unrealistic" transfer is. Transfer is destined to happen. When the vision exists, it is just a question of waiting for a window of opportunity. Im tirtzu, ein zo agadah.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Syria has lost millions to emigration and is a good place for the Arabs from Israel.

      Delete
    2. Guys, be careful, you're going to greatly offend The Hat here. He couldn't care less when hundreds of thousands of Jews are displaced (or killed), just when Arabs are.

      Delete
    3. . . . as during the expulsion of well ov

      Delete
    4. When even Weaver advises you to be careful, you've said something so obviously and grossly morally twisted that no further comment is needed.

      Weaver isn't clear if he approves or disapproves of expelling minorities, unlike me who has been clear and consistent on that point.

      He engages in the error of assuming two wrongs make one right.

      Delete
    5. Just that your delicate moral sensibilities only seem to run in one direction.
      The Hat further doesn't seem to realize that extreme actions from one party may indicate a necessary similar counter-reaction from other. Instead, he slips into glib cliches of "two rights don't make a wrong".
      As it happens, I'm not in favor of transferring all Arabs out of Israel, though it may have made sense immediately after the founding of the state, as all the surrounding Arab countries were busy expelling 500,000+ Jews. It would saved everyone a lot of problems over the next seven decades.

      Delete
    6. * "two wrongs don't make a right" : )

      Delete
  13. Perhaps the manager would consider weighing in on the crucial question(s) of the Temple Mount, extremely important to Ben Gevir and many of his voters?

    I mean Torah-wise (boundaries, Tahara, building the Temple, offering sacrifices), not the security bogeyman, as though Jews praying on the Temple Mount endanger Jewish lives, which is the opposite of the truth.

    This also relates to other themes of this site...

    Kalman Weiss

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Please substantiate the comment that Jews praying on the Temple Mount don't endanger Jewish lives, which is the opposite of the truth? All evidence shows your statement is false.

      Delete
    2. Jews praying in their holiest site has the additional benefit of saving Jewish lives, even yours.

      Delete
    3. This may surprise some, but I am in favour of freedom of religious practice for all.

      There is no need to get triggered by women wearing a tallis and tefillin reading from the Torah at the Kosel, and there is no need to get triggered by Jews praying atop Har Habayis. Normative Halachic practice prohibits both, but normative Halachic practice is no way to run a state in 2022.

      Delete
    4. I don't expect you to know this, but *neither* is against "normative" halacha.

      Delete
    5. It's a gemara, sota mem daled -
      שתחילת נפילה ניסה

      security experts have made the same argument in supprt of har habayit, i don't recall names.

      fact - the riots start when jewish people aren't allowed in.

      remember when the kotel used to be stoned all the time? that only stopped because of those who go up and force the police to be there too.

      it's all about moral support. you give an inch, the arabs take a hand

      nothing shows them we arent temporary 'crusaders' in the holy land more than the actions to restore the holiness of the land in full, but if you pretend the 'three oaths' are active, this way of thinking leads to escaping the wailing wall, then leaving jerusalem, then the green line, then the country, and so on, with no end.

      Kalman Weiss

      Delete
  14. So what I'm hearing from this post is that Israel should adopt Leftist policies and Israel is doomed because of Chareidim in a matter of a few decades.

    ReplyDelete
  15. The Hat at Nov. 4, 22 at 12:10.
    The Kotel is an Orthodox religious site. Now someone comes along and wants the site to fit his religious outlook. Tomorrow a Christian can claim Othodox control doesn't fit with his religious outlook. Freedom of religion doesn't mean everyone can usurp the religious domain of a other religion or practice. Israel is a Jewish state and as such can determine that the Orthodox can continue their traditional control of the Holy site.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Moshe, the kotel has been taken over as a religious site. It belongs to all of am yisrael.

      Delete
    2. The Kotel is and should be under the supervision of the traditional guardians of this Holy place. Yes, it is a revered place for the Jewish people, but that doesn't mean every Jewish person can determine how it should be kept, and supervised. Just being Jewish doesn't mean you get to vote on it. The traditional guardians should have the ultimate say.

      Delete
    3. Yes the Kotel belongs to the Jewish people as a national site but it is also a religious site, and predominantly so.

      Delete
    4. Traditional Guardians? Who? The Ottomans? It hasn't been run as a segregated place of worship ever before 1967.

      Delete
  16. If you want to investigate why the Israeli public has abandoned the left wing policies, the failures of the hard right wing in implementing the Gaza withdrawal do not figure as a material issue. That is literally history.

    What matters is this. The left wing have less children. They are unhappy living in a riven, religiously dogmatic, illiberal and militaristic society. They have voted with their feet, and now in Dublin, London, and the West coast of the USA, large communities of Israelis unhappy in Israel have sprung up.

    Those who are left behind are more likely to be more religious, less wealthy, less educated, with simplistic tribal beliefs about the Palestinians.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. In your dreams. In reality, they’ve abandoned them bc they don’t work. Only a few naive simpletons like you, who also live in safe and cozy chu”l, still believe in the delusions of the 90s.

      Delete
    2. Israel successfully withdrew from Lebanon and since 2006 there has been much less violence than while Israel was occupying Lebanon.

      Israel has signed peace treaties which have held with Jordan and Egypt.

      It is a myopic trope that ignores reality to state that Israel cannot make peace. At the moment it suits Israel not to make peace as they can continue to steal another nation's land.

      Delete
    3. Hat - any statistics yo back that up? If you can forward a scientific poll showing the party alignment of Israelis in chul we’d be most grateful

      Delete
    4. No polls are conducted of Israelis living abroad (we can't vote: what would be the point?) and it is fair to qualify that this is my opinion but not a undisputed fact.

      Delete
    5. It certainly sounded like statements of fact… ok so how did you arrive at this opinion? I assume you’ve spoken to various Israelis of all stripes and in many locales to arrive at this opinion? Or was it just opinion the way I may, say, have an opinion on the inner workings of your mind?

      Delete
    6. I do business with quite a few, and, as I was born in Israel, I am also an Israeli citizen with a mispar zahut and a headache every time I try to travel there...

      Delete
    7. Ok so we have established that your opinion is based on your biases. Which is to always judge Israel in the most damning way possible. You should join the BDS or the neturei karta demonstrations. Unfortunately Jews of your stripe have always been amongst our ranks.

      Delete
    8. If we held your moronic opinions we'd also have headaches whenever we travelled there. The liberals in the 90s were nebach blind, and their foolishness led to thousands of deaths and injuries and we're still suffering from it. But at least they woke up. You're still dreaming.

      Delete
    9. So we have established your opinion is based on your biases as well. You can take my opinions or leave them - I don't care.

      Delete
    10. No problem. Just don’t state your hateful and anti Zionist opinions/delusions as fact.

      Delete
    11. Oh, are we talking about Palestinian and Israeli civillians killed? How is counting Palestinian and Israeli civilians killed either hateful or not factual?

      Delete
    12. No we’re actually talking about you stating that Israelis living in chul are by and large doing so because they are left wing and feel that they are disenfranchised.
      But nice try trying to change the topic. We can deal with your other delusions separately (but not in this thread as always good to stay on topic)

      Delete
    13. Well that is blatantly better hateful or provides you with any reason for you to perceive it was such.

      Clearly you were upset at facts higher up in the thread and tried to score some disingenuous points on a tangential opinion lower.

      Delete
  17. Again, if the blog already has articles proving Tekhelet, then the boundaries of the Temple Mount (har habayit) can certaily find a place here - not politics!

    Kalman Weiss

    ReplyDelete

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