Tuesday, October 25, 2022

Guest Post: "I'm Charedi and I'm voting Yesh Atid"

It's a week until the election and personally I still have no idea who I am voting for. I only know which three parties I am NOT voting for - the party whose sole goal is to gain power in order to keep its leader out of prison and is happy to harm the country to that end, the party whose overriding goal is to extract money to support a rapidly increasing community that drains the economy, and the party featuring a firebrand whose primary goal is to stir up trouble without considering the national and international consequences. 

That still leaves me with several choices, such as Hamachaneh Hamamlachti, Yesh Atid, Yisrael Beitenu, and the Pirates. Meanwhile, an outstanding talmid chacham that I know in the charedi community sent me the following. Because of the stereotype-breaking nature of his position, I thought that it would be useful to share it here. For obvious reasons, he prefers to stay anonymous:

 

I am a member of the Charedi sector of society of Israel. I grew up in Chutz La’aretz and came to Israel to learn in Charedi Yeshivos where I have been living ever since. My children also all went through the Charedi education system and I would like to share with you why, for the upcoming elections, I plan to vote for Yesh Atid. 

First of all I need to explain why I, as a Charedi Ashkenazi, will not vote Gimmel. After all there is only one essential reason that Ashkenazi Charedim vote Gimmel - the Charedi gedolim have said that all people must. 

I will not vote for Gimmel because firstly, I do not trust their judgement, and secondly, because I have different political objectives for my vote than they do. 

I do not trust their judgement because I see that their judgement has led to shielding criminals. I see their moral judgement towards women, towards the collective non-religious public, towards non-Jews and I am appalled. Their medical advice to the public and to individuals has at times been really wrong and drawn from unscientific and irresponsible sources. They base much of their judgement on what their Askanim tell them, much on past stories of Rabbinic leaders and also on precedents in the Gemara which were played out in completely different contexts. 

I also have different political objectives to them. With my vote I am looking to bring into power political players that will do more to combat polarization in society not accentuate it; to do more for the working middle class, not engage in competition of who gives out the most government money for free. 

I am looking to vote for people who act in dignity in the public sphere and not embarrass their constituents. I am looking for representatives who will preserve the institutions upholding civil rights - such the Israeli Supreme Cours - and not seek to bulldoze them down (of course that particular stance didn’t stop the Charedi Organization “Emet LeYaakov” from themselves turning to the Israeli Supreme Court to try and overturn Yoaz Handel’s communication reform law). I pay full property tax and also full tuition for my son’s Yeshiva and know that if Charedi men worked they could too and not have to rely on the good will of government actors and the lobbying of the Charedi lawmakers to pay for their son’s Yeshiva tuition. They wouldn’t have to stand in line waiting for a Charedi town hall representative to sign their papers to make them eligible for a discount of a couple of hundred shekels a month. 

I will not vote for a party that perpetuates the evils of the exclusion of Ethiopians from Charedi Ashkenazi Yeshivot, of keeping Kindergarten teachers at starvation salaries and the continued abuse by school prinicipals. I will not vote for a political party that actively participates or represents those who actively participate in doing everything they can to stop Mamlachti Charedi schools or even just vocational schools from opening, running, getting buildings and funding and harassing any who run or support them. I will not vote for Gimmel because I believe the the Core Curriculum (known in Hebrew as the “Libba”) is a positive and necessary thing and certainly institutions who adopt it should not be attacked - but it’s enough that I actually support the idea for me to be already considered beyond the pale (and hence not an eligible constituent of Charedi society - so why vote Gimmel?). I certainly would hate to vote for a party that nonchalantly dismisses signed agreements. In my eyes, the Charedi parties stand for a political movement that strives to keep its constituents, poor, ignorant and dependent. 

I also would not vote for a party who has consistently acted against national interests in the Knesset just for the sake of impeding the work of the ruling government. And I will also not vote for a party of zealots who, aside from acting against national interests in order to harm the government, believe they can hasten the coming of Mashiach by annexing as much of the Biblically delineated land of Israel as possible while publicizing few other agendas. 

Who will I vote for? I will vote for a party that pushes for unilateral improvement of society by directly addressing the actual issues that plague it instead of invoking mystical solutions. That will support Charedi secular education and help Charedim enter the workforce. I am looking for a party with an impressive record of public action and a team of people looking to do the right thing and not just the most popular thing. I am looking for a leader who has the courage to condemn unprovoked wars and land-grabs - who will be remembered for being on the right side of history. One that is able to represent Israel to the world in the context of a more democratic international climate and not just cuddle up to nationalists and dictators. A leader who is able to engage in sincere dialog even with Israel’s enemies and his own. A leader who is able to take a responsible decision which is best for the country even as it decreases his popularity among the more general public.

I am looking for a leader I can proud of, not one who will denigrate large swathes of the country’s good citizens, or put down the legal system and certainly not one that will give more power to the people over power to the courts of justice. A leader who despite all the flak he gets just keeps moving forwards with what needs to be done and doesn’t descend to petty mudslinging. A leader whom even those who oppose have called him (as Avi Bloom called Yair Lapid in the news supplement of Mishpacha of 11th of August following the “Rise of Dawn” operation in Gaza) “a competent army officer and a gentleman”.

Would I as a Charedi vote for a party that will promote gay rights and Chilul Shabbos? I know I am not going to change people and it’s not a law this way or that which will make any more people keep Shabbos or stick to the religious definition of morals. All restrictions of what secular people see as their basic civil rights only promotes antagonism, not religious observance. We read in the Gemara that Hashem lets His name be erased for the sake of peace, implying that not everything whose acceptance may at first glance be seen as a Chilul Hashem is of such. If we want to live in peace among ourselves we must respect the agendas that promote the perceived personal rights of all individuals. So the answer to the above question is - yes I would. 

Furthermore I am not the only one. Over the years several know figures in Charedi society have also attempted to build some kind of coordination platform with Yesh Atid, although the enormous social pressure and stigma involved have invariably prevented these plans from surfacing to the public sphere. So the best we can do is support them from the ballot box. If we can bring to power a party that will promote national, intersocial peace that should be considered a golden objective. 

That’s why I, in the upcoming elections, plan to vote Yesh Atid.

118 comments:

  1. Good joke! This is even sillier than the strawberry salamander, or the "letter" about Natan Sharansky! But a little too soon for Purim!馃槀馃槀馃ぃ馃ぃ

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    1. You think I wrote it? I'm offended! My friend is much smarter and more learned than me, but I'm a better writer!

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    2. "My friend is much smarter and more learned... "
      If your friend is not aware that secular Jew shall be considered as a Gentile... and you claim you learned even less... I am getting scared.

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    3. Brodsky - just wait until you hear what the CI thought regarding how the secular Jews should be treated nowadays. Then you'll be REALLY scared.

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    4. You didn't write it, but it is an 'editor's choice'.

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    5. I am looking for a party that will legislate to stop allowing vile women to kill their babies. About 20,000 babies are vacuumed out of their mom's bellies in Israel each year...why can't the Jewish state be at least as decent as a bunch of states in the US that have said enough with the killings?

      (Oh, and the majority of reasons (or excuses) given are not even medically related...in fact the most common scenario is an unmarried woman.... first, she chooses to mess around, now she kills...)

      The argument that women have free rights to kill ("their bodies") is laughable. I cannot legally take hard drugs; I also should have no right to kill the baby in my womb. All over the world there are laws against harming self and harming others.

      The poor baby that sinned by wanting to breathe the same air her low-life mom enjoys is now being vacuumed out. I hope her mom gets very depressed...as is common and fully self-earned.

      Is Yesh Atid going to help? Didn't think so...which parties are against baby genocide in the Jewish state?

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    6. Every community will have its disgruntled defectors. The exceptions prove the rule, they do not detract from it. As an Ashkenazi Charedi father of 6 Ethiopian children (their mother came before the large aliyas), I can tell you, from experience, that the Charedi community of Bet Shemesh was more than welcoming to accept my dark children into its schools, homes, and hearts. This is true for the families and the rabbanim. The author is clearly in a lot of pain, but instead of vilifying the Charedim, he should look inward to get to the root of his frustrations.

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    7. It's a sad day in Medinat Yisrael when secularists start appealing to the Chazon Ish's "转讬谞讜拽 砖谞砖讘讛" in order to validate their secular, anti-Torah society. Just wait until they hear the Chazon Ish's position regarding a secular Zionist state...

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    8. Life!, I don't know why you assume that abortion is prohibited because it involves murdering babies. That is a minority opinion, and among contemporary Israeli posqim, a small minority.

      Your repeating the Religious Right position and just assuming we share it is a version of the same mistake as Tikkun Olam Jews who just assume that Judaism is identical to the Liberal Left.

      Rashi, for example, asserts that a fetus is NOT a nefesh, a living human being.

      The Bach understands the Rambam as holding that way as well. Which is why the Rambam says one can abort a fetus to save the mother's life, but as soon as the baby crowns, you cannot kill the infant to address the same danger to the mother.

      Among other reasons given for the prohibition of abortion:
      1- R Issar Unterman: abuzraihu deretzicha, a pseudo-murder of a *potential* life
      2- Hashchasas zera -- basically, a worse version of the same concept as the prohibition of masturbation. This is supported by the Zohar and Nidda 13b
      3- Peru urevu -- a violation of the obligation, not a prohibition. (Given by the the Chavos Ya'ir.)
      4- Chavalah -- abortion is injury to the mother. After all, in halakhah we do not hold "my body" implies "my choice". So, the same prohibition as cosmetic surgery. See Shemos 21:22. This also explains why, if a pregnant woman is sentenced to death, beis din doesn't wait for the baby to be born before executing here. (Also explains why a child born of a woman who converted while pregnant with them is born Jewish -- they converted as part of their mother. Although there are other explanations.)

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    9. not that it makes a difference one way or the other, but Rashi elsewhere does call a foetus a nefesh

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    10. Oh, sorry Micha, I said murder when it really is, say, a form of murder or chavalah...like cutting off someone's arm or cracking a rib. Pretty bad still, don't you think?
      It doesn't take a genius to realize that "murder" in this context refers to the horrific ending of that baby.

      Some big poskim DO say it is actual murder...and thanks for the list of other reasons why the baby killing lands you in hell. (Oh, did I say killing? Horrific! it is a type of killing not a killing.... shut up moron. I am not giving a halachic discourse; I am discussing the sinful action of termination).

      Liberals at heart like yourself cannot stomach any firm stance against evil...they hate when anyone gets angry about abortion or homosexual liberties and such. Where they cannot flat out argue for the liberal position, they go bat crazy over minutia to cloud the issue. Classic.

      The fact is that the termination of the baby is horrific. A Jewish state that allows such forms of genocide should never pretend to have any rights to the land. The land is for those who keep G-d's laws, as Tanach reiterates endlessly.

      Any Israeli parties that are for such atrocities should never ever be supported by Jews and non-Jews alike.

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    11. Happy,
      No one said anything of the sort. The CI was invoked in response to Brodsky's naive statement that the secular should be treated like Gentiles. V'zehu.

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    12. HGLP: do you know where Rashi says this?

      I was referring to Sanhedrin 72b d"h "yatza rosho".

      If there is evidence his position is more nieanced, I would love to dive in!

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    13. Jack, the so-called "chareidi" (more like ex-chareidi) writer was not invoking the Chazon Ish's tinok shenishba. To the contrary, he talks about secular "national interests" and a secular "unilateral improvement of society". He considers the secular "good citizens". He considers chareidi society "ignorant" compared to secular society. So in response to that garbage, it's certainly appropriate for Brodsky to invoke the basic halacha of 诪讞诇诇 砖讘转 讻注讻讜"诐.

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    14. Anon October 27, 2022 at 2:35 PM,

      See 专砖"讬 讬讘诪讜转 诪讘. 讚"讛 讛"谞 讞讬讬住 注诇讜讬讛.

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    15. HBLP, between the two, I would assume Rashi's explicit discussion of abortion as primary ("讚讻诇 讝诪谉 砖诇讗 讬爪讗 诇讗讜讬专 讛注讜诇诐 诇讗讜 谞驻砖 讛讜讗"), and try to understand what Rashi meant in Yevamos in light of that.

      My first guess was that since Rashi Yevamos is discussing someone's intent, not the reality of the situation, he is just saying people think of it as killing a nefesh or like-killing a future nefesh.

      The Arukh laNeir (who cites the Chabos Ya'ir too) on the Rashi in Yevamos says that while it isn't "killing" as defined for Jews, it is still assur. Rashi means that the husband wouldn't want to like-kill. (Perhaps a source for R Issar Unterman's abuzraihu deretzicha position?)

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    16. Regardless of what the writer says, that changes nothing about the halachah. I have no idea what you're talking about.

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    17. The writer could foolishly say that the secular are the biggest tzaddikim who ever lived. Does that mean the CI longer applies?

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  2. This blog has become a cesspool of politics. Shame I have to keep checking for the occasional interesting post.

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    1. @Yoni 6:22PM
      What could be more interesting than cesspool politics?

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  3. I'm a charedi avreich. And as of now, plan to vote for hamachane hamamlachti.
    Gimmel and Shas don't actually provide their base with their needs. Both voted against lowering the age of pettur from draft! I cannot stomach otzma and likud is has become a personality cult.
    For me it's between yeah arid and hamachane hamamlachti, and I really like Ganz. Doesn't have charisma, and cannot speak English well. But is that the goal? Do I really need personality? I find him to be a good patriot for Israel. The fact that he broke his promise and joined up with Bibi in 2020 is a plus in my eyes. Nothing should be absolute, all political decisions are about balancing priorities, and with an epidemic going on, the country was not in any condition for elections. He managed to join a gvt and still keep ministry of justice out of Bibi's hands.
    He just handled 2 military situations as minister of defense with little little mistakes. Apparently he is a competent manager.


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    1. I know quite a few people who think along similar lines.

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    2. I also think Gantz is kinda underrated.

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    3. "Both voted against lowering the age of pettur from draft! " Excellent point! I think people have forgotten about that!

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    4. You're a "charedi avrech" who's been using the name "Koillel Nick" for about 15 years. Have you been sitting in kollel that long? And all this time you've been commenting away online? And I don't know any "charedi avrech" who believes "the sexual morals of Gimmel are worse than Meretz", a party that actively promotes homosexuality.

      Such sheker. Why can't people be honest? Why does the left, like NS or "Koillel Nick", always feel the need to portray themselves as something they're not? State your opinions and move on. No one is fooling anyone.

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    5. Let me revise the last comment. I would not describe "Koillel Nick" as a leftist, based on his comment history. More like left-of-center. But he is clearly not a "charedi avrech" now, if he ever was. He's a guy with an opinion. I would bet at least 50% of the commenters here have opinions...

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    6. Ive been in kollel for 16 years. I have a night job for the past 7 years now. I'm pretty sure RNS knows who I am.
      I see the question of what a charedi is on this thread coming up. Here is where I am. I study in a charedi kollel, live in a mostly charedi neighborhood, daven in a charedi shul, kids attend charedi TT and Bais Yakov. Both myself and my wife attended american yeshivish schools in NY. (charedi wasnt used in America back then) and I studied in the Mir after 3 years in bais medrash in america. So I am both a product of the system, and I participate in the system.
      My argument about sexual morals is that while Meretz endorses permitting homosexuality - yes it is assur, very often, within our own charedi system, we cover up for the same issur in a far worse way. We're anti gay unless it's gay rape (kolko anyone?). We're anti lesibain unless its malka leifer.
      For those upset that I am comparing homosexuality, a bein adam LeMakom to rape - you are correct. Its a different animal, and rape is far far worse. Im trying to put it into language to prove a point.
      So yes, if you voted gimmel during the last few elections, you voted for a candidate on the list that protected a rapist, and voted for a party with worse sexual morals than Meretz.
      And if youre online, it is likely that you knew about litzman and malka leifer.

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    7. I find it impossible to believe that such an active internet poster has been in kollel for that long, and holds such opinions. Maybe you don't work during the day - but that's very far from being "a charedi avreich", and actually part of a Kollel. They are night and day different. The rest of it is credible, but irrelevant. What are YOU, Koillel Nick, is the question - and brother, you're no charedi. You sound more BTish to me, or more likely, a "born again" type from an MO background. In no way does this passul you as a person. But the question is one of definition.

      On the actual underlying issue - First , you've not stated any actual reason to vote for an anti-religious party. You have a tainah? So what. It's as foolish as leaving Judaism, like so many other BTs, upon realizing it wasn't the perfect little word they thought it was when they were first becoming frum. Which is exactly what chazal meant when they said 拽砖讬诐 讙专讬诐 讬砖专讗诇 讻住驻讞转. One doesn't leave the team just because not everyone on it is an All-Star. One tries to make the team better, primarily by doing the best he can.

      Finally, as to your actual tainah. In what universe is actively promoting an outright issur - the very issur that caused the world to be destroyed, what a timely coincidence - somehow better than opposing it? You say we are "anti-gay", as though this was to our detriment. Most certainly we are "anti-gay", as we are anti chilul shabbos, anti eating pig, and anti theft, murder, and mayhem. We oppose all these things, even though they be hard for some, and even though some of us may fail. No Charedi worthy of the name could fail to understand this.

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    8. I'm probably the least BT person you'd ever meet. No modox in my background either. I went to yeshivish yeshivas my whole life, father learned in yeshivish yeshivas, grandfather studied in yeshivas in Jerusalem in the 1930s.

      I don't think it's a detriment for charedim to be against gay activity. It's Torah. I do question why we think we're so much more moral when we have worse problems. Promoting issurim can happen in many ways. It can be through legistlation, and it can also happen when nuevort cheder in bayit vegan attacks parents for catching a perverted teacher.
      If we'd clean up our own act, maybe, just maybe, we'd convince chilonim that our way is the more moral way. Legistlating Judaism has not proven to be a convincing method.




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    9. Our responsibility is to represent Judaism, whether we think something is popular or not. Not everything is about Kiruv. As it happens, celebrating homosexuality is not as popular as you seem to think. The standard frum position on it is mainstream. To oppose or not permit homosexual marriage is not "legislating Judaism" (not that there's anything wrong with that), its codifying normal behavior.

      As for the claim that "we have worse problems" than Meretz, I can't respond because its like responding to someone who claims black is white and white is black. You think the existence of problems within individual party members - something that exists in every political party of all time and all places - is the same and even worse than a party that actually makes problems part of its platform. That makes zero sense, whatsoever. Your only argument can be that you don't actually see anything wrong with the Meretz platform, that it's not actually a problem. You can have that opinion, but as I started and will now close with, if so dont call yourself a charedi.

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    10. Litzman is no individual party member. He was number 1 on the list for a long time. And at no point did any of the leadership condemn his actions.
      There is also no comparison between allowing freedom to sin or not to sin, and enabeling abusers.
      I don't plan to vote for Meretz, it's not where I am politically. I do take issue with the nonsense that the haredi parties are somehow more moral than secular parties. They are not.

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    11. Regarding enablers,

      'We Are All Sexually Harassed in the Israeli Army, Almost on a Daily Basis'

      https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/culture/2018-12-04/ty-article-magazine/.premium/israeli-choreographer-takes-on-routine-sexual-harassment-in-idf/0000017f-f765-ddde-abff-ff656e690000

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    12. I dont know what Litzman did or did not do, or what his party did or did not to. It's not relevant. All that matters is policy. If Labor during the 1990s were compromised of only saints, it still would not have saved the lives of all the men who died because of their reckless policies. Same with today. If one party pushes homosexuality and the other opposes, any thinking person has to go with the latter, no matter else what. This is aleph bais.

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  4. "I am a member of the Charedi sector of society of Israel." Sure you are... Don't get me wrong, this Yid might sincerely believe it. Many black hat Anglos do.

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    1. Yes, this makes Jonathan Rosenblum's columns entertainingly off sometimes. He thinks he can speak for the Israeli Chareidi community, and many times he is so far from their mindset...

      American Yeshivish people make Aliyah and think they believe what Israeli chareidim do. Meanwhile, the distance between Ponovezh or HaPeleg haYerushalmi and Lakewood is as great as from Lakewood to YU.

      (Of course there are exceptions. Anglos who do successfully go native. But I could not picture the Meli Kornfeld I knew growing up saying many of the things Rav Elimech Kornfeld is saying today. It requires a transition.)

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  5. Umm... you know this guy is not charedi, right?

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  6. The article should have included a discussion of why Yesh Atid is a better fit than HaTzionut HaDatit.

    Too many people both in Israel and here in the US, seem to think the line between chareidi and DL / MO is deeper than that between Shomerei Shabbos and non. Too many kids going off the derekh rather than switching derakhim. When are kids learning that "they", despite being fellow believers in the Torah, are just as off as the secular?

    Why isn't the first assumption that if a Shomer Shabbos isn't voting with his own subcommunity, he would vote with other Shomerei Shabbos? People who would vote in favor of laws that protect the Jewish nature of the state and aid shemiras hamitzvos.

    Why isn't there space explaining why the party of Smotrich and Ben Gvir isn't a choice? It is a conclusion I think I would reach in the author's shoes. I am just wondering why it isn't something the author think needed spelling out?

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    1. He does explain (a little obliquely):
      “ And I will also not vote for a party of zealots who, aside from acting against national interests in order to harm the government, believe they can hasten the coming of Mashiach by annexing as much of the Biblically delineated land of Israel as possible while publicizing few other agendas.”

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    2. I think the author explained why he is not voting RZ in this sentence:

      And I will also not vote for a party of zealots who, aside from acting against national interests in order to harm the government, believe they can hasten the coming of Mashiach by annexing as much of the Biblically delineated land of Israel as possible while publicizing few other agendas.

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    3. Thanks to you both. He gave it such short shrift, it didn't make an impression on me.

      I share that concern that the DL community stopped voting based on the interests of the "dati" part of their name, and became the party of R Zvi Yehudah Kook and Greater Israel. That said HaTziyonut haDatit has a comparatively more dati platform than when they called themselves HaIchud HaLe'umi. (For whatever platforms and other campaign promises are worth.)

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  7. Sad when Jews use twisted logic to support anti-Torah forces

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  8. I like the hadras panim of this new Goldknopf fellow. His look fits the secular stereotype of the dark Chareidi rabbi/politician/evil mastermind so well, all he's missing are the horns!

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    1. It gets even worse the more you learn about him: https://vinnews.com/2010/03/07/israel-maarivs-expose-of-rabbi-yitzchak-goldknopf-the-powerful-boycott-maker-and-breaker

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    2. My son noticed how, even though Charedim have large families, we don't see Agudas HaTorah (and Shas) growing substantially from one election to another. Clearly, the younger generation is not so committed to voting for Agudah.

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    3. "I like the hadras panim of this new Goldknopf fellow."

      Congratulations! You're a perfect sucker for primitive, corrupt, ethno-religious gangster politics. You would feel right at home in Russia, or perhaps an African dictatorship.

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    4. Huh? By virtue of what? Me pointing out that his bearing and beard are very Rabbinic looking and probably fit right into the secular stereotype of how a Gimmel politician/rabbi are supposed to look? Ok, Kapeesh. But don't worry, I've seen dumber comments from you.

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    5. @Weaver, I'll guess that you didn't take note of the cynicism apparent in the rest of 诪讻专讻专's comment. (RDS did take note.)

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  9. Your comment about the Likud is very insulting to the many people who vote Likud because they actually agree with its supposed platform.
    Also, if you follow what is happening in Netanyahu' ls court case, you will realize that the case odd pathetic. The judge had told of the prosecution many times, and the prosecution has changed the charges during the trial. It's a bad joke.

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    1. Actually, Likud doesn't have a platform. https://en.idi.org.il/israeli-elections-and-parties/elections/2022/

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    2. But regardless of what drives people to vote Likud, what drives the Likud party itself is only keeping Bibi out of prison. That is the overriding goal to which everything else is a distant second place.

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    3. I voted Likud for many years because I generally agree with their platform.
      However, Likud has become a personality cult and consistently put the needs of Bibi ahead of the good of the country, and even vote against their own values when they think it will help them politically, for example, voting against extending rights of residents of Judea-Samaria, because brining down the previous coalition was more important that the future of communities in Judea/Samaria.

      There are other parties that have center-right values and put the interests of the country ahead of their political interests. Gantz and Shaked both have traditional Likud values, but also care about the future of the state.

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    4. "Actually, Likud doesn't have a platform."

      I am grateful to the Rabbi Dr. for providing that link. There are anti-Israel voices that I encounter all the time who try to push that Likud is just as extremist as Hamas (!), because the Likud Charter from the 1970s said that they want Israeli sovereignty over the entire area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean. Just like Hamas considers it all to be Palestinian land!:
      a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

      b. A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State," jeopardizes the security of the Jewish population, endangers the existence of the State of Israel. and frustrates any prospect of peace.


      https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party

      Of course, things have moved on since then, since Bibi himself said in 2009 that he would accept a demilitarized Palestinian state.

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  10. The writer is "looking for a leader he can proud of" and is voting for Lapid? Really? All his legitimate criticism of chareidi politicians has made him blind to the fact that Lapid is utterly, profoundly unqualified to be the PM. Being right on a many points doesn't release you from the obligation not to make laughably ridiculous statements such as that Lapid is a leader to be proud of.

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  11. What about Ayelet Shaker's party? Is the calculus that it's a water vote since they probably won't reach the threshold?

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  12. " such the Israeli Supreme Cours" Courts.

    "keeping Kindergarten teachers at starvation salaries", which party is trying to do that? Why?

    "I know I am not going to change people and it’s not a law this way or that which will make any more people keep Shabbos or stick to the religious definition of morals." Change "any more people keep shabbos" to "any more charedim get jobs". What's the difference? You can't force the charedim to work. Yesh Atid has tried in the past, and it doesn't work.

    ReplyDelete
  13. You can keep on insisting that you are not left wing. Hard to believe when you de facto support the creation of a left wing government.

    ReplyDelete
  14. There is no question that Bibi Netanyahu is one of the greatest political leaders in Jewish history. I'm voting for Bibi.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Seminar callers, Natan, really??! “I’m Republican, but THIS year I’m voting democrat because Zzzzz…” Come on, be honest with us, your dear readers. You cannot possibly believe a) that this is an authentic charedi; b) that anyone will believe you if you claim otherwise, or c) that your readers are stupid enough to fall for this. (Here in the US it is seen as a sign of left wing leaders” condescension towards their own voters, that they think Republican voters will.) So tell us, seriously - this is a joke, right??

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Obviously he's not intellectually/ theologically charedi. But he's culturally charedi. Sends his kids to charedi schools, etc.

      Delete
    2. 'chareidi' can mean many things.
      Political vews shouldn't need to be part of the package.

      Delete
    3. 'Obviously he's not intellectually/ theologically charedi.'
      No true Scotsman much?

      Delete
    4. Oh, so you mean chareidiprax? And how representative is that?

      Delete
    5. Jew Well - yes, "Charedi" can mean many things, and so can "Zionist". So can "Liberal" and so can "Conservative." But there is a commonly understood association of these words, which is precisely why these people keep bringing it up. They think it gives them bona fides.

      If we actually *knew* them, then yes, it would carry more weight. If you've lived your life publicly as an undisputed Charedi or Mizrachnik, and then you come out with a position at odds with your peers - it doesn't mean you're right, but one must at least acknowledge that it represents a change, and, if the guy is known to be intelligent, one might want to learn more about why he switched. But anonymous callers, posters, commenters, etc, (or worse, people actually known to NOT be what they're claiming to be) - these things dont fool anyone. Its just 讚拽专 讜讻讝讘 诪讚讗讜专讬讬转讗.

      Delete
    6. 'there is a commonly understood association of these words, which is precisely why these people keep bringing it up'

      All I'm saying is that it's sad this came to be associated with certain political views (and not even real ones, only party fidelity), when the original meaning is about personal piety.

      Delete
    7. Original Anonymous: those actually go both ways. Remember during the heyday of Afghanistan and Iraq, how the Democrat Senator Joe Lieberman actually spoke at the Republican National Convention? He agreed with the Republican foreign policy position. (He was asked by a Republican talk show why he didn't switch parties, and his answer was that on domestic issues, he was quite solidly with the Democrats.)

      Delete
    8. Yosef R - yes, politicians of both sides will occasionally vote with the other party on certain issues. Mancin, Murkowski, etc. But it is only the left that consistently tries the seminar caller garbage. Say what you want of their politics, the right is both honest and smart enough not to play that game. Which is consistent with what we saw here with NS, a lefty, posting a letter from another obvious leftist trying to pass himself off as Charedi. I don't read political blogs except this one, but I doubt you'll find right wing bloggers posting anonymous letters doing the shame shtick. I could be wrong, certainly.

      Delete
  16. I'm sure your friend believes his view of things is correct. And I'm willing also to believe he genuinely thinks of himself as Charedi (though, obviously, he isn't.) But what of it? There's a letter circulating on the Hebrew blogs from a Tel Avivian, whose two children served in the army, does not keep kosher or shabbat, and is completely secular. Yet he is still voting for Gimmel because, he writes, they uphold the concept of Da'as Torah and protect the state of Israel via learning. Some of the commenters, as with your friend, question his claim of being a Chiloni. Others think his assessments are both factually incorrect and irrelevant to an election. But that's what he believes. And there's nothing more irrational than trying to convince people their politics are wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Can someone please start a blog about rationalism because apparently there arent any. I want apologetics, divrei torah, hashkafic ideas etc. Not politics and why charedim are no good doody-faces. Jeez.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Charedim will never do anything that they feel forced into doing. Yesh Atid. As long as Yesh Atid believes in compelling Charedim to learn Math and English and to enlist in the Army. In my personal opinion they are not going to get anywhere. When they don't compel Not all Charedim but more Charedim will do so on their own accord.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Readers of this string may find this podcast useful in understanding the give and take - https://fs.blog/knowledge-project-podcast/venkatesh-rao/ It helps explain a method of decision making based on what my tribal affinity determines, not based on consideration of the specific assertions/facts being debated.
    kt

    ReplyDelete
  20. Top stuff, I'm sure rank and file Charedim will be thrilled with this agenda of *checks notes* sending their children to school with Ethiopians and locking them in their home because of a virus. A message that hits the kishkas.

    P.S. obviously laws influence behaviour. Do laws against racism only increase racism? Do laws against theft only increase theft? What is this stupid meme?

    ReplyDelete
  21. Also very funny that writers who believe charedi underemployment represents an existential threat think Israel should tank its whole economy to support Ukraine. Germany won't have heating this winter. Thank G-d that elected politicians in Israel don't get to mark the these decisions

    ReplyDelete
  22. The "Chareidi" writer ignores the fact that Israel is a Jewish state so protecting personal rights does not mean doing away with the Jewish character of the state. Israel is not the US. Neither is Britain which has the Anglican Church as part of the government. Many non- Jews are against the LGBT lifestyle but do not want legal infringement on their lifestyle. Protect them from abuse does not mean we should promote their lifestyle in the schools etc.whi h they actively advocate in the US. My uncle wasis a psychologist

    ReplyDelete
  23. How can a religious Jew vote for a party that is pushing same-sex marriage, public transportation on Shabbat and a continued judicial dictatorship?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. How can a religious Jew vote for a party who's past head admitted to assisting a pedilophile avoid justice?
      Litzman plead guilty, and has not been condemned for his actions by anyone else in his party. 诪讚砖转拽讬 专讘谞谉 砖''诪 讚谞讬讞讗 诇讛讜 - the sexual morals of Gimmel are worse than Meretz.

      Delete
    2. @Anonymous
      You’ll never find a party that supports every view that you hold. You thus vote for the party that fulfils the majority of the criteria that you’re looking for even if there are policies that you don’t hold of.

      Delete
    3. Kollel Nick - that is a false analogy.
      Pushing for aveiros to be done is not the same as preventing the Australian authorities from punishing someone who has already committed a crime. There is no reason to believe any more aveiros were done due to Litzman's actions, even though I personally think he was wrong for what he did.
      But pushing for Aveiros is far far worse.

      Delete
  24. Moshe at Oct. 26,22 above. To complete my statement above. My uncle, he should reach 120, now 99, practiced as a certified psychologist in the US for over 60 years including in his early 90's. He told me that he treated Orthodox homosexuals who were married to woman who wanted to maintain a traditional heterosexual marriage and was very successful. These people maintained happy religious marraiges. He was listed in the journal of " Whose Who in Psychology". Not everyone agrees with the current attitude toward homosexuals where psychological therapy to help gays remain heterosexual is condemned.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/conversion-therapy-an-evidence-assessment-and-qualitative-study/conversion-therapy-an-evidence-assessment-and-qualitative-study#what-are-the-outcomes-of-conversion-therapy-1

      Delete
  25. Forgive my ignorance, but this is my first Israeli election. Which party is Gimmel?

    ReplyDelete
  26. I personally don't care much who will be PM, Bibi, Gantz or Lapid. The main thing is to keep Lieberman out to prevent wiping out what remains of Jewish character of the state, and to stop further hurting of Torah Jews and Yeshivot. And to keep Yvet out, the haredi parties should have enough mandates so that nobody can form coalition without them. That's why I am going Gimel.

    ReplyDelete
  27. This guy understands more than most Jews https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/2132388/see-it-famed-saudi-blogger-pleads-with-chareidim-to-vote-for-gimmel.html

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Actually, it appears that the clip is a political ad from Gimmel. What a bizarre world we live in. A Charedi Israeli political party seeking endorsements from a Saudi Arabian blogger!

      Delete
    2. @WZO Is it better to rely on coalition support of muslim brothership supporters?

      Delete
  28. Rabbi Chaim CasperOctober 26, 2022 at 3:51 PM

    讻诇 讛讻讘讜讚!
    There should be more who think as clearly and as intelligently as you!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I actually didn't think it was too clear and intelligent at all! Even if he has some grievances against Gimmel, how does that warrant voting for a Left-wing party whose goals are further secularizing and further stripping the state of its Jewish character?! If he really really can't find another party that passes muster, then don't vote!

      Delete
    2. You think he wrote it? Think again.
      http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2022/10/guest-post-im-charedi-and-im-voting.html?showComment=1666710762088#c3844522300691831292

      Delete
  29. Chareidi Politics:
    https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/361717

    ReplyDelete
  30. The problems facing the country cannot be resolved by the current system. It's a mess now and will become more of a mess in the forseeble future. Democracy is a fraud where people do not have a real say. Politicians have always failed to deliver on their promisses and this is built into the system. We are doomed. Still, Ben Gevir and Smotrich are at least stand for a Jewish state. When in power they will face their limitations, will make mistakes and not deliver just like everyone else before them. Israel cannot solve its problems.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yakov mr doom and gloom. I assume you’re not a motivational speaker.

      Humor us though - what system would you recommend for Israel and the US other than democracy? Dictatorship? Monarchy?

      Delete
    2. Lol. Look, this is a crisis of historical proportions. US could only have been saved by a nationalist dictatorship and a military rule. American democracy has destroyed itself. The country has undergone catastrophic demographic changes and it's too late now.
      In Israel I don't have a practical solution. The illusion of democracy is what keeps the country from descending into total chaos. There is no better option. Incidently, the politicians have been talking about the same issues since I started paying attention and it has been over 40 years.
      Again, we are in the Western Civilization crisis that affects us all.

      Delete
    3. Aristo, we are at the tail end of the collapse of the world reserve currency. The dollar is doomed. There is no point in pointlessly speculating and arguing over such.

      Must an alternative be proffered to agree with the sentiment?

      The real alternative is to build alternative platforms and communities, not propose meaningless alternative governing mechanisms of tens or hundreds of millions of people.

      As far as the false left-right dichotomy, I think Moshe Feiglin put it pretty well when he said: When you vote left, you get left, and when you vote right, you get MORE left. Begin oversaw the return of Sinai. Netanyahu "kashered" including Arabs in the coalition, which his opponents only did better.

      This is often the case in America and elsewhere. Reagan is given the credit for deregulation, but Carter oversaw the vast majority of the the legislative changes. Reagan then oversaw the greatest illegal amnesty in American history, that changed California overnight from reliably red to insane blue.

      Personally, and truly, I don't care who wins. I vote for gimmel even though they are just another band of politicians not really different from any other party. Not because of their gimmes or "accomplishments" or moral purity or anything like that. It is simply to be part of the group I consider myself a part of. If I have to hold my nose to be part of that group, whatever. I don't care who wins, or what you think.

      Delete
    4. Hey buddy - I hope you didn't lose too much money on that Vox Day movie scam!

      Delete
    5. As it happens, none, but those who were "scammed" are ready and willing to double down again. Are you one of those gamma haters who pay more attention to Vox than his actual supporters?

      Delete
    6. I'm sure they are, considering how very good their judgement has been so far.

      I don't know if I pay more or less attention to him than his marks, but at least so far I haven't lost any money on his grifting.

      Delete
    7. I am a proud member of GSK, and find it hilarious you still support the scammer Vox even when he lied to you about living in Italy for many years. Your a real paypig.

      Delete
    8. Ash, GlaxoSmithKline? Of course you find it hilarious. Actually, as a gamma, you find it irritating, and calling it hilarious is how you cope. I find it telling how much attention you pay to him.

      C'est la vie, you retard, the money was stolen, and not by Vox, so they are obviously not his marks. It looks like the ring that stole the $1M of Vox's backers are connected to SEVERAL HUNDRED MILLION OR MORE of pilfered funds in other much larger scams. The FBI and SEC are both involved. Did you stick around long enough to Vox's recent streams on the subject to hear that part?

      Once again, I do not even mention Vox Day, nor do I even reference him, and not one, but TWO retards who inhabit these parts decide to...I don't know...shame me (?)...by dragging his name into the comments in a completely irrelevant manner. You can't argue rationally so you resort to rhetoric, badly.

      Delete
    9. Your childlike devotion to being scammed is really adorable. Bless your heart.

      Delete

    10. C'est la vie, once again, how was I scammed? Adorable is a gamma tell.

      Delete
    11. Constantly reaching for the "gamma" insult is a gamma tell.

      Delete
    12. This is literally the first post in months I used the term gamma. You literally mirror my own words back to me and think I or anyone should take you seriously. It's not original and not clever. Are you so retarded you can't come up with your own insult? Go ahead gamma.

      Delete
    13. Your overwrought lashing out is an excellent demonstration of my point. I thank you.

      Delete
    14. I don't lie, double down, or project. Nor do I introduce irrelevancies into comments. You do. What is your point? Mirroring what I say back to me? That's more a stance than a point.

      Delete
  31. Alternative title: I'm chareidi and eating Mcdonalds.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Now this would have been a worthwhile guest post to share!

    https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/361717

    ReplyDelete
  33. When a balding paunchy so called hard man poseur forms an important part of the next government, to be led by a venial narcissist, it will be relevant to ask how Israel lost its way.

    There is the moral corrosion of the occupation. The intoxicating rush of moral corruption. The growing confidence that there are no consequences.

    And there is Facebook. That forum is crack for a generation of Boomers and young Charedim who have grown up immunologically naive to disinformation, radicalisation, and faked or exaggerated rumours, where the victim complex is nurtured even when Israel kills 8 unarmed innocent civilian - men, women, and children - for each and every Israeli civilian killed.

    This will be the first government of Israel which even the Rabbi Doctor, so sanguine about the suffering of Palestinians, a man who has never seen an act of state brutality which had ever moved him to express even mild disapproval of, to feel embarrassed.

    Now he gets it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Are you 讝专注 砖诇 驻诇住讟讬谞讬诐?

      Delete
    2. What sort of a human being would I be if I did not object to murder, violence, and land theft?

      I must tell you that the majority of Jews who live outside your little bubble are equally horrified by the barbarism of the Occupation, and that this is a natural and Jewish response to immortality. I'm sure when the prophet told the people heavy with sin that their hands were filled with blood that he faced similar othering. There is nothing other about people who have decency and morals.

      Delete
  34. Shimshon at Oct.27,22 at... 7:31 AM. What were the dues you paid to be in the Chareidi club? A good Shidduch for your kids and grandchildren? Se vet nisht helphin? You don't sound like a true Chareidi!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hashem welcomed me with open arms. I may not sound like a true Charedi, but you sound like a true retard.

      Delete
    2. Shimshon at Oct.27,22 at 3:42 PM. "...It is simply to be part of the group(vote for a Chareidi party) I consider myself a part of.If I have to hold my nose to be part of the group I consider myself a part of.If I have to hold my nose to be
      part of that group, whatever.I don't care who wins or what you think."
      I didn't mean to insult or offend! I care what you think and why! Many Chareidim have been voting for other parties and voting is secret! Why do you have to be part of the crowd?

      Delete
    3. After seeing what I have seen, beyond local elections, which can make a difference (I would have voted for Aliza Bloch too and I do not live in Beit Shemesh), who is running is practically scripted, and certainly limited.

      I don't have to be anything. I choose to be.

      For whatever reason, UTJ is the party charedim vote for.

      I don't know where it stands now, but the when I last checked during the first election of the recent series, where my wife was an observer, I think it was 85% for Shas or UTJ, and 15% for the remainder of the right wing parties. And some number of non-voters, which was not insignificant from what I remember.

      I don't believe in wasted votes. Nor do I believe that there is something wrong with not voting. But I also don't think these allegedly maverick voters or non-voters accomplish anything.

      In terms that the rationalists can understand, one reason to vote the party line is simply to make the statement that we are here. Anything we do terrifies them anyway, so, yeah, just a pure display of unity for the sake of devotion to Torah, regardless of what the clowns in the Knesset actually do or accomplish. They are all in the same little club after all. The sheer number we could put in office says everything it needs to about us. That the actual number has gone nowhere for decades, compared to what it should be today given the size of our electorate also says much. But sadly, too many people think they know better.

      You do not get into their club without going through their hoops. If you don't, you are Kahane'd. You will be expelled. And this is whether you agree or argue with him specifically.

      Delete
  35. Shimshon, I think your a great guy trying to get along with his life as the rest of us!

    ReplyDelete
  36. I am Torani/Chardal and I will be voting Gantz.
    How anyone who claims to follow Torah and love Israel could vote for a serial liar, a racist agitator, or any of the Charedi parties, I have no idea...

    ReplyDelete
  37. Anonymous at Oct. 27,22 at 9.02 AM.
    It was Moshe directed to Shimshon.

    ReplyDelete

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