Wednesday, October 13, 2021

Chassidim on a Plane

A neighbor of mine posted the following account of what transpired during a plane flight:

I just flew to and from Israel... and I have never been more mortified to be Orthodox. The plane was trashed. The bathrooms wrecked. A flight attendant remarked that this route is always left this way, while after 15 hours to Japan, the plane is left spotless. Men crowded the aisles and blocked the passageways, forming a minyan even while being explicitly told that they could not do so A- because the seat belt sign was on and B- because of the pandemic. While attendants were buckled in because of turbulence, stopped food service because of turbulence, men were up and putting on tefillin even while flight attendants and the captain himself begged them to sit down and buckle up. They could not have cared less. It was as if they were deaf or above the rules or both. 

To describe myself as shocked is an understatement. It got to the point that I asked them who they were even praying to, who would possibly listen to their tefilot when they were causing us such humiliation and chillul Hashem. I don't know who to turn to to speak about this and I do not want to trash an entire community. But this was so so bad that if I myself was feeling such anger and animosity and close to posting videos I can't think that someone actually doing this who is not Orthodox is far off. In all seriousness, rabbis and Leadership needs to address this. If anyone has ideas as to who to turn to, please let me know.

Someone else I know who was on the flight also told me about it and sent me videos. She commented that it was crazy and doesn't make any sense at all. 

But in fact, it most certainly makes sense. 

There are three reasons why one would comply with safety regulations on planes. One is because those are the rules and rules should be followed. The second is to conform with social norms. And the third is because it's, y'know, important to actually be safe

None of these are particularly relevant to chassidim. (And even before seeing the photos and videos, it was obvious that chassidim were being described, although Lithuanian charedim are also to an extent guilty of this).

Rules are only followed when one sees oneself as being part of the system which institutes the rules. Charedim in general, and chasidim in particular, do not see themselves as being part of that system. To some extent, it's a cultural hangover from Europe when the government was the enemy. They don't see secular rules as having any authority. Rules are for goyim (or for the Modern Orthodox, which is practically the same thing).

Likewise, they see no need for conforming with social norms. You only conform with social norms if you are part of that society. Charedim, on the other hand, and especially chassidim, follow a general societal model of isolationism. They couldn't care less about what others say, because they consider themselves to be separate from, and above, everyone. Humans feel no need to conform to the social norms of dogs and cats, and chassidim feel no need to conform to the social norms of non-chassidim.

Finally, with regard to safety, the rules are likewise only for goyim. Safety rules are to do with physics and science and experts and professionalism, all of which are very far removed from the chassidish worldview. 

So, what can be done?

My immediate reaction was to say that the only thing that could work is a public expose. It's unpleasant, but that's the only thing that got the charedi world to start taking child abuse somewhat seriously, as Agudas Yisrael's Rabbi Chaim Zwiebel acknowledged

But on further reflection, I think that even that just wouldn't work here. I just don't think that the movers and shakers in the chassidic community care enough about what the secular press says, such as to start teaching an entirely different message to their communities about how to behave. Possibly pointing out that YAFFED gains support from public negative perceptions of chassidim might have some impact, but it's a long shot.

Unfortunately, I can't think of anything that would work (though I do think that all of us have a responsibility to publicly rebuke such behavior when we see it). What would conceivably give rise to a cheshbon hanefesh about taking rules and safety and being part of society seriously? Even 45 people being killed on Meron didn't do it!

But at the very least, perhaps publications such as Mishpacha can stop writing articles about how flare-ups with charedim on planes are entirely due to hostile flight crews. And Assemblyman Daniel Rosenthal can stop talking about "media caricatures" of the Orthodox community as uncaring for human life and heedless of regulations. 

 

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112 comments:

  1. What airline was this?

    "Someone else I know who was on the flight also told me about it and sent me videos."

    If you have the videos, please put up the videos...

    ReplyDelete
  2. El Al should simply ban any passengers who won't follow crew instructions from flying with them in the future.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Then they'd be in even more financial trouble than they are already in.

      Delete
    2. It's not just Hasidim on El Al tbh - youth groups etc. It's why I started flying British Airways to IL. Less security hassle too. It's great to see Arabs, Jews & Gentile all behaving themselves as soon as the livery on the plane changes.....

      Delete
    3. Taken the El Al Boston plane. A mechayeh.

      Delete
  3. The answer is very simple. The airline knows exactly who is in each seat. Each of those passengers can be placed on the "unwelcome" list and refused service in the future. After a few get banned, they will get their act together.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. ↑↑↑↑↑↑
      People who do not comply get banned! It's not that complicated.

      Delete
    2. Yup. They're doing this in the U.S. for mask refusers, why wouldn't they enforce the rules for chareidim?

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  4. I'm an infrequent flyer, so SSS, but I must say that my experience is that many hassidim, and haredim in general, have become more sensitive to the potential for hillul hashem on planes, and these kinds of scenes, which were par for the course in the past, have become relatively rare. I suspect (but don't know) that some rabbis have instructed their followers not to form minyanim and not to draw negative attention to themselves. But again, SSS.

    ReplyDelete
  5. If the Holocaust didn't do it, nothing will.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. What a shocking remark! The first Jews to suffer Nazi brutality were the Yekkes!

      Delete
    2. What a shocking remark!

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    3. I suspect 'Yakov' is a troll.

      Delete
    4. The Holocaust was a call for a cheshbon nefesh. This behaviour shows the absence of such a cheshbon. Various reasons have been offered by the rabbinical and the secular leaders and thinkers. Acting like swine can be a contributing factor. Are Jews a likeable people? Why or why not? What do people who think of us and why? Whining and complaining about antisemitism without examining our own behaviour is irrational and self-righteous behaviour. The Holocaust has shown that this isn't right attitude, or at least this is what I think.

      Delete
    5. אם הבנים שמחה, דעת סופרים, סטמאר.לובאביץ,רב אביגדור מיללער among many others, weighted in on the issue. What is showing?

      Delete
    6. For the record, Hitler claimed that his anti-Semitism was inspired by a chassid he saw in Vienna. He didn't say the chassid did anything to him, it was just the idea of seeing an unassimilated Jew.

      In all likelihood, Hitler was lying through his teeth. But we should know things.

      Delete
    7. "For the record, Hitler claimed that his anti-Semitism was inspired by a chassid he saw in Vienna"
      This is the 1st time I ever heard this quote, and I'm pretty well versed in WW2/Holocaust history.
      Do you have a source for this?

      Delete
    8. I thought that Rabbanim no longer try to figure out reasons for tragedies anymore - since the Spanish Expulsion. Chazal could do it for the Churban, but it gets more and more sanctimonious with Yeridas HaDoros - including with Yeridas HaDoros of the Rabbanim...

      Delete
    9. THe quote from Mein Kampf is, "Once, as I was strolling through the inner city, I suddenly encountered an apparition in a black caftan and black hair locks. Is this a Jew? was my first thought."

      "For, to be sure, they had not looked like that in Linz. I observed the man furtively and cautiously, but the longer I stared at this foreign face, scrutinizing feature for feature, the more my first question assumed a new form: is this a German?" ....

      Check for it on google.

      And then of course eventually this monster murdered Chassidim and non-Chassidim alike.

      Delete
  6. Plane was trashed and bathrooms wrecked?

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    Replies
    1. I don't know about the bathrooms, but on the El Al flights that *I* have taken, there is so much garbage around that it is really embarrassing. Now, granted, many of the Chareidi/Chassidish/Ultra-Orthodox/etc families travel with multiple children, and children are messy, so there should be some leeway, but everyone should instruct their kids on cleaning up after themselves!

      So yeah, the plane was "trashed" in that it was coated with trash. Not, as you want to nitpick, that the plane was broken in such a way that it was itself discarded. Not every "literally" is not a "figuratively" ;)

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    2. Yeah, I don't buy it either.

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  7. You are right. Some Chasidim literally don't give a **** about anyone outside their community. They think they're still in the ghetto.

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  8. If these are chassidim, the airline's reps could reach out to their rebbes and ask "do you endorse this behavior by your followers?" If the answer is "No, it's a groyse shandeh, and I'll mussar my followers to be menschlich in the future" then progress has been made. If the answer is "Yes, I endorse it. Feh on your rules," that would be sad, but so be it. In the workplace, it's better to go "up the chain" to address a problem than to grumble/borch about it. Management (that is, the rebbes) might not be aware of the problem.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. What planet are you living in that you think a Rebbe will respond to airline reps

      Delete
  9. They should be placed in restraints, fined and placed on a no-fly list. The problem is that these choleras are treated with kid's gloves, whether driving in traffic like maniacs, acting like entitled jerks on an airplane, or engaged in violent rioting. They need to start learning the hard way that their hooliganism is not going to be tolerated.

    - Moishe

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  10. Sorry, but this is one of the reasons I hate many of your posts. You do realize there is a broad range of people who identify as Chassidim and Charedim, of whom many actually act normally on airplanes.
    Imagine someone wrote your exact post and just wrote "Jews" instead of Chassidim. How would you react to that? What you do is not much different.
    "Jews on a plane"...

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    Replies
    1. Sure. But high visibility of those who dress a certain way and the higher percentage of those groups who behave in this way means that indeed the risk for Chillul Hashem from these groups is higher. Hashtag NotAllChassidim, if you wish, but that's unfortunately not a defense.

      I *am* conscious of how I present in public and how I seem in public. In this regard, I am extremely vigilant in keeping my children quiet and neat on airplanes - even playing up the fact that I am trying to do so (obviously not perfectly successfully) in order to undercut the nonzero risk of Chillul Hashem.

      Delete
  11. I don't know if we can really fault the chassidim, they don't have the necessary tools to act appropriately. If you plucked me out and dropped me into the 13th century I'd likely make a fool out of myself too. They're simply too conditioned (from isolationism) and unaware to expect them to regulate their behaviour.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Being considerate of others, leaving a place as nice as you found it, obeying the orders of a captain on her or his ship, and not disturbing the peace or rights of other travellers have been goid manners for thousands of years

      Delete
  12. why not put up the videos on this site? otherwise (readers might think) you just might be overreacting

    ReplyDelete
  13. What a foolish post. Replace the word "Chassidim" with "Jews" and mut. mut. most of this could have been written in 1930s Germany. Did you get your talking points about Jews from Haman?

    And you completely undercut your own post by roping in Misphacha's exposure of anti-Jewish discrimination. Not only does it highlight your own problems with anti-semitism, but you're also effectively making the Chassidim's point. The masks proved long ago to be a total failure, a worthless exercise in self-righteousness. The Chassidim were 100% right to have rejected them. So by comparing general "safety regulations" to Covid, you are implicitly saying the regulations are equally pointless, and should be obeyed purely for the sake of obeying. I doubt you intended it, but that's exactly what you're saying.

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    Replies
    1. "The masks proved long ago to be a total failure"
      No they weren't.

      "a worthless exercise in self-righteousness."
      Are all failures exercises in self-righteousness? Or are some failures simply well intentioned mistakes or reasonable measures at the time only proven after the fact to be incorrect? How do you tell a difference?

      "The Chassidim were 100% right to have rejected them."
      And that was before masks were "proven" "to be a total failure"? How did these Chassidim know that it would be a "failure"?

      "100% right"
      Are you sure they weren't 90% right? Maybe 10% of them didn't give a damn?

      " you are implicitly saying"
      You are inferring.


      ", but that's exactly what you're saying. "
      No, he did say it. Not "exactly", not "implicitly". Not at all.


      Delete
    2. Since when were masks found to be useless? Seems like alternative reality here.

      Delete
    3. Danmask-19, the only large scale randomised control trial of masks, found no statistically significant efficacy in preventing coronavirus for the wearer. Nobody has tested whether wearing a mask protects others.

      https://www.thebottomline.org.uk/summaries/danmask-19/

      Here is a maths question. Given a gap between the edge of the mask and the nose of approximately 5cm^2, how many virus particles are inspired per second for the average male lung and respiratory rate?

      I suspect airtight fitting N95/FFP2/3 grade masks have a much much higher efficacy.

      Delete
    4. @ A.Schreiber 'What a foolish post. Replace the word "Chassidim" with "Jews" and mut. mut. most of this could have been written in 1930s Germany. Did you get your talking points about Jews from Haman?'


      ויאמר המן למלך אחשורוש ישנו עם אחד מפזר ומפרד בין העמים בכל מדינות מלכותך ודתיהם שנות מכל עם ואת דתי המלך אינם עשים ולמלך אין שוה להניחם.

      People are saying this for thousands of years. Why? It's all lies?

      Delete
    5. I think that you are making Rabbi Slifkin's point.

      The medical and scientific community have researched Mask effectiveness and published scientific papers on it based on detailed research, and recommend mask wearing to slow down the spread of a fatal virus.

      But the Chassidic community already know that the scientific research is worthless (even before the research was done), and they are a better judge of what is safe than all those pesky PHDs who actually went to school and waste their time studying stuff like science and how contagious diseases spread.

      Delete
    6. https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5802/cmselect/cmsctech/92/9203.htm

      "The initial UK policy was to take a gradual and incremental approach to introducing non-pharmaceutical interventions. A comprehensive lockdown was not ordered until 23 March 2020—two months after SAGE first met to consider the national response to covid-19.

      99 This slow and gradualist approach was not inadvertent, nor did it reflect bureaucratic delay or disagreement between Ministers and their advisers. It was a deliberate policy—proposed by official scientific advisers and adopted by the Governments of all of the nations of the United Kingdom.100 It is now clear that this was the wrong policy, and that it led to a higher initial death toll than would have resulted from a more emphatic early policy."

      The medical Gedolim you hero worship were awful. They had a terrible pandemic and the non-expert , empirically led common sense of Rory Stewart and others who were calling for early Lockdowns has been proven to be correct.

      Expertise is overrated - evidence underrated.

      Delete
    7. Every Sunday, all across America, football stadiums both indoors and outdoors are filled with more than 100,000 fans and vendors, sitting and standing and yelling cheek by jowl - and they're all just fine. There is nothing, NOTHING, about this "pandemic" that was ever rooted in actual truth.

      And let's not evade the central issue. Rabbi Moshe Hirsch of Neturei Karta attacks Jews, Rabbi Natan Slifkin of RJ attacks Jews. One attacks Zionists, and publicly, and the other attack Chassidim, and publicly. He thinks he's right, the other thinks he's right. There's no difference there.

      Delete
    8. Took a look at the https://www.thebottomline.org.uk/summaries/danmask-19/ study.
      First, it says the conclusion applies in a setting "where social distancing and other public health measures were in effect." Planes do not fill these conditions.
      Secondly, the conclusion states: "The findings were inconclusive and cannot definitively exclude a 46% reduction to a 23% increase in infection of mask wearers in such a setting."

      Delete
    9. Third, the conclusion states: "The findings, however, should not be used to conclude that a recommendation for everyone to wear masks in the community would not be effective in reducing SARS-CoV-2 infections, because the trial did not test the role of masks in source control of SARS-CoV-2 infection."

      Delete
    10. 1st) correct. You would a priori expect masks to be even less efficacious in such settings.
      2nd) I did say it found no statistically significant link. Whether an even higher n study would find a link is a matter of conjecture.
      3) I already made this point myself.

      You can't use the lack of good evidence to claim that there is scientific evidence of efficacy of masks. There is none. People assume some there is scientific evidence for masks mainly because the medical Gedolimb authority figures recommend them. There isn't any evidence.

      Delete
    11. A. Schreiber: Of course there's a difference: The former is nuts and lying, and the latter is sane and telling an objective truth.

      Delete
    12. "Danmask-19..."

      Read it again. The authors listed several limitations of the study & stressed that masking should continue.
      You're sweeping conclusion that "The masks proved long ago to be a total failure, a worthless exercise in self-righteousness. The Chassidim were 100% right to have rejected them. " in no way follows from the Danmask study.

      Delete
    13. "Danmask-19, the only large scale randomised control trial of masks, found no statistically significant efficacy in preventing coronavirus for the wearer."

      To correct my previous comment, the Danmask study in no way supports SCHREIBER's sweeping conclusion.

      Delete
    14. "Expertise is overrated - evidence underrated."

      But what does one fall back on, when there's not enough evidence? And doesn't one need expertise to understand the evidence, and to draw conclusions from it?

      Citing Danmask is one thing. Reading it is another. And understanding it is another. And drawing conclusions from it is another thing. Yep, evidence is overrated, though it depends on who is doing the rating.

      Delete
    15. "There is nothing, NOTHING, about this "pandemic" that was ever rooted in actual truth."

      Nothing?

      Delete
    16. Here is all the evidence that Rory Stewart (London mayoral candidate) needed to advocate lock down long before the scientists: he looked at the news on TV in February 2020 and saw bodies being trucked through the streets of Lombardy by the Italian army because the morgues were full.

      The need for lockdown wasn't unknowable. The football Premier League locked down before the government scientists woke up. A complete and utter failure of common sense.

      Here is all the evidence I need to know masks don't work: even when worn correctly over the nose the air gaps are visible to the naked eye.

      Delete
    17. Except that now it is published that the leading cause of death for adults 35-54 is Covid...

      Delete
    18. Nachum - Be objective, and leave your personal feelings about Charedim aside. Hirsch has plenty of supporters who would say the same thing about him that you just said about Slifkin. Right or wrong is a matter of opinion, but they're pretty much the same guy.

      I would add this as well - I've also been rethinking things. We (wife and I) used to be Zionist too. Lots of family in Israel, Indefinite but certain aliyah plans, went to NBN pilot programs. But we've started to see Israel in a new light. I don't mean the nonsense some people say about Arabs and "proportionate" bleating, that's just silly. I mean how a free country should treat its citizens. I don't know, man. Israel hasn't been doing too well. It's opened a lot of eyes.

      Delete
    19. Lol. That article is light years away from proving that masks don't decrease the spread of COVID-19. Love when people with zero scientific education and an agenda to prove go searching in Google for anything they can find and then trot it out as "evidence."

      Delete
    20. A. Schreiber: Thanks for the chuckle, "man." A sad chuckle, a knowing chuckle. I hope you enjoy your wide-open eyes.

      Delete
    21. No, wait, I can't just let that sit there. Even if Israel was, on some imaginary standard that you set up (I'm going to take a wild guess and say it has something to do with some vaxxing conspiracy you're in thrall to, or something similar where you've chosen to ignore that Israel is no better or worse than any other country, and in fact a lot better), it, first, does quite well by its residents on any scale, and, second- and brace yourself- YOU DON'T MAKE ALIYAH TO A GOVERNMENT. YOU MAKE ALIYAH TO A COUNTRY. You talk about your "indefinite but certain" all you want, but I call nonsense. You either want to make aliyah or you don't. I am willing to put good money that whatever complaints you have about Israel are some Present Moment issue you have that you've chosen to validate your not-quite-"used to be"-"Zionism" that you had all along.

      Delete
    22. Nachum - I couldn't quite follow your point. It was sputtering, which is rare for you, and quite revealing.

      You made aliyah - which I admire in anyone - and consequently have no choice but to put on a brave face and tell yourself that Israel was smart, even as Egypt right next door is laughing away, and all those hasbara claims of being the only "free country" in the middle east have proven hollow. Sinner in exile that I am, I have no such need to engage in self-delusion. And while I've been trying to convince myself that Israel is no worse than Australia, and that its still our homeland no matter how corrupt its government is - I haven't succeeded yet.

      Delete
    23. Oh, I was sputtering? Well, excuse me for getting defensive for a Land who God Himself gets very angry over people speaking Lashon Hara about it. Is that easy enough for you to follow?

      Anyway, you know where you can put your condescending attitude, along with your whacko beliefs the violation of whose preciousness was somehow enough to cause you to cease belief in a fundamental of Judaism and eliminate a (doubtful) Zionism.

      For the record, my beliefs in government roles are very libertarian and my beliefs in Israel's best options are very Kahanist. I have very little hope of either ever being fulfilled in Israel or anywhere. And yet somehow I was able to move here. I guess your well-educated views on public health are just more rooted than mine, in one way or another.

      Delete
    24. Eretz Yisroel is holy. The Zionist government is secular.
      One can appreciate the holiness while condemning the government.
      One can make aliya to an Eretz Yisroel under the Ottomans and the British just like under the Zionists, barring practical barriers.

      A person who hates the Israeli government has nothing to do with the Meraglim. A person who hates the land of Israel is like the Meraglim

      Delete
    25. The State of Israel isn't the government either.

      Delete
  14. Japan has one of the lowest fertility rates in the world.

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    Replies
    1. Unlike Chassidim, Japanese children are well-behaved, considerate, and understand that being a decent person means respecting others as you would like to be respected. Where Japanese kids gather in large groups they take care of common spaces and try not to disturb others. By comparison the standards of behaviour taught to Charedi children compare poorly with a litter of feral piglets.

      Delete
  15. Given that there is video footage of a police machsom set up at the exact site of the Meron tragedy 30 minutes before it occurred maybe blaming the ethnicity of the victims as a group is a tad ignorant and bigoted?

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/new-video-shows-blockades-at-meron-passageway-half-an-hour-before-disaster/

    Of course this won't confirm your prejudices. Despite professing rationalism you are remarkably resistant to facts.

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    Replies
    1. "Given that there is video footage of a police machsom set up at the exact site of the Meron tragedy 30 minutes before it occurred "

      And what about seconds or minutes before the disaster? Did this same blockage stop additional people from entering the dangerously overcrowded area? Did the blockage, assuming it was still in place actually cause the disaster?
      Or are you engaging in non-expert non-evidence based speculation confirmed only by your prejudices?

      Delete
    2. Haredism isn't an ethnicity.

      Delete
    3. Ephraim:

      There is a prima facie reason on the balance of probability to expect that the checkpoint set up 30 minutes in the place of the crush was still there 30 minutes later, ironically for secularist health and safety reasons by Covid fanatics.

      It is worth mentioning that the event has been notoriously overcrowded for 20 years. The only thing that changed in 2021 is Covid, although I accept that crowd crushes are stochastic / unpredictable.

      Only a completely disingenuous moron would suggest that such a blockage at the foot of the stairwell had an efficacy in reducing the crowding at the hadlakah. If this was success, show me failure.

      I don't need permission or parsing from experts to interpret video evidence.

      The only rational thing to do is to suspend judgment on a beyond reasonable doubt basis and wait for the report. But that requires too much self control from Rabbi Drs who indulge rather than restrain their cognitive prejudices.

      -

      Anonymous: all human categorisations are arbitrary. It doesn't matter if your prejudice arises from racial, ethnic, religious or any other essentially tribal assumption of superiority - the effects are the same.

      Delete
    4. "prima facie reason"
      Prima facie & reason. They don't go together.

      "secularist health"
      Secularist health?

      "Only a completely disingenuous moron"
      I doubt morons can be completely disingenuous.

      "blockage at the foot of the stairwell had an efficacy in reducing the crowding "
      Blocking entry doesn't reduce crowding?

      "The only rational thing to do is to suspend judgment.. and wait for the report."
      By all means, do so.

      Delete
    5. Once again, Ephraim is very makpid on the kavod of his Gedolim. Of course the Rabbi Dr can cast aspersions on poor, hairy Jews. God forbid any questions authority figures of the secular state are cast unless they can be proven to a legal rather than rational standard.

      Partially choking entry didn't reduce crowding, if you can believe the evidence of your own eyes: there was sufficient time for the hadlakah to be filled up.

      Covid health measures are likely to have killed people.

      Delete
    6. Hat, there wasn't a single person in Israel who was surprised when they woke up to the news the next morning. Shocked, saddened, grieved, angered- sure. Surprised? Nope, people saw this coming for years.

      Delete
  16. "But at the very least, perhaps publications such as Mishpacha can stop writing articles about how flare-ups with charedim on planes are entirely due to hostile flight crews."

    Unfortunately, we live in a world where we Are Not Allowed To Point Out that sometimes disparate impact is a result of the actions of those being impacted. I imagine I don't have to point out the most obvious example of this.

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    Replies
    1. Truly it has been said that post-modern thinking was, ironically, very good for charedim.

      Delete
    2. But what are the actions the result of? That's what we truly not allowed to point out

      Delete
    3. Well, we're allowed to point it out only if it fits the Narrative. Suggest any other cause, and it's Cancel time.

      Delete
  17. The formula is simple: preferring "bein adam la-Makom" commandments, lack of secular education, and blind faith in Talmudic aphorisms like "shluchei mitzvah einan nizokin".

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    Replies
    1. Rational but not stupidOctober 17, 2021 at 12:55 PM

      Not sure how lack of secular education belongs in the formula at all and I also doubt that blind faith in talmudic aphorisms causes people to display such a lack of basic human decency. But the preferring bein adam la-Makon commandments is definitely part of it..... and very unfortunate.

      Delete
  18. Just out of curiosity. How can one see that this a chasidim on the photo and not mitnagdim?

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  19. you mean the Mishpacha magazine that recently published a full page add touting the benefits of hydroxychloroquine against covid? I wish i remembered the exact statements, but the advertisement should not have been allowed. Don't expect much

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  20. Perhaps not stressed in the article is the tool charedim use of calling anyone who objects justifiably to their unacceptable behaviour as an "antisemite". Smearing is just one tool used in their retaliation.

    An unmentioned tool to try and enforce common social behaviour by Charedim who present uncommon antisocial behaviour, is to stop giving to their mosdos. The issurim involved in not adopting medically recommended actions (e,g, distancing oneself from non-family members, attending crowded weddings in defiance of the current regulations etc) are too many to enumerate here.
    However if the power of the Press has no effect on our misbehaving and shameful brethren then perhaps the power of the Purse will have an affect.

    There are many good causes outside the charedi community to whom funds can be diverted with the added advantage that all of us regardless of his/her religious stripe can benefit.

    Further financial support to individual deserving cases should continue.

    For far too long MO and others have been far too tolerant of misbehaviour by those who self proclaim to know better.

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  21. I think a contributing factor is that this was on El Al; this would be less likely to happen on a regular airline. Still disgusting though.

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  22. The crux of the issue, I think is that we due to historical antisemitism and other reasons, are a community that is incapable of self criticism, which every healthy society needs, on top of that isolationism has made us have no self awareness of how our behavior is seen by the rest of the world (yeah, those other 7.8 billion humans..)
    Healthy societies have the self confidence to point problems and make the necessary changes. When things go wrong commissions are set up guilt is assigned, recommendations are suggested to avoid a repeat,
    We Charedim on the other hand seem to be only capable of patting ourselves on the back. When things go wrong we blame someone else (Meron..) when inconvenient facts are embarrassing (child abuse.. domestic violence, charity corruption, ) we shove it under the rug. The only narrative fit to print in our magazines are of the self platitudes and righteous indignation and criticism of the "outside world" variety.

    For our own good we need grow up, show some spine and have the self confidence to point out our failures (and we sure have, just like al communities) and make the necessary fixes.

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    1. This is true. I remember when I learnt in the Mir there was a Yerushalmi protesting, screaming "נַחְפְּשָׂ֤ה דְרָכֵ֙ינוּ֙ וְֽנַחְקֹ֔רָה וְנָשׁ֖וּבָה עַד־יְהֹוָֽה". I found it odd that the only reflection he'd yell about is that of others which coincidently fortified his own ideology. The Nevi'im always uncomfortably called out the BS of that generation and often paid the price. Any real self reflection for a society is that which they'd naturally repel. Sigh.

      Delete
    2. What would be really brave would be for a Daati Leumi commentator to do Cheshbon HaNefesh on the latest batch of allegations of Netzach Yehuda soldiers abusing prisoners. In what toxic millieu do they learn to sexually assault people with weapon barrels?

      Of course, though, moaning about hairy poor Jews standing up, ostensibly in their seat, in an embarrassing way in an airplane is of course the material problem the Jewish people have at this time.

      Delete
    3. @the hat, speaking truth to power doesn't always mean picking up on cliche activist causes. Absurd by netzach yehuda isn't exactly one of this generations struggles.

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    4. It's not funny to shove rifles up there. It is designed to humiliate and physically harm in an intimate place. It is about an abuse of power. It is a form of rape.

      Is it any suprise that difficult allegations of Israeli chayalot being sexually abused by superior officers are suppressed by threats from enablers? This affects us all, Arab and Jew.

      Delete
    5. to "the Hat"

      I’m not Dati Leumi, never was, im a chusid through and through, and i acutely care about how we Chasidim are perceived. i personally feel very embarrassed every time Chasidim misbehaving. Especially if i am in the vicinity.

      Regarding misbehaver in the dati leumi community, sure THEY should take care of it, and not point fingers by saying "well chasidim are also not perfect" which you seem to be doing in reverse.
      Each community needs a mechanism of honesty in addressing problem, not being defensive and pointing fingers to others and accusing commentor of being "another community”. all of which you did. Why?

      Delete
  23. Yeah, every time I fly the TLV route, I become a born-again anti-Semite. I hate that aspect of flying.

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  24. https://www.jns.org/opinion/on-visible-and-invisible-jews/?fbclid=IwAR1RSz92Y_IyWqkh6W37-I-IdDdwI4UgiI2KT2EKALLliu-BvmTxBuURCbg

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    1. There's not one word here about causing anti-Semitism. You do know that some things are just objectively wrong even if they don't cause anti-Semitism, right? Are you implying we can be as reckless and rude as we want so long as only "unzerer" are watching?

      Ah, but then you deny any connection to anti-Semitism at all! Let's look at how this developed:

      1. Rather than give actual mussar, we prefer to tell people not to do X because "it's a chillul Hashem."

      2. We completely forget, if we ever knew, that "chillul Hashem" actually means making *Hashem* look bad (so to speak) because we, His representatives, are acting badly, and instead think it means "makes Jews look bad."

      3. Once we've moved to that point, we hotly deny that Jews can ever look bad- it's just the anti-Semites who think that, and they hate Jews no matter what- and so we're free to be as big jerks as we want. So long as our lettuce is washed in soap.

      Of course you can't blame Jews for anti-Semitism. But that doesn't mean:

      1. That we should try to present a good an image as possible, especially in a world (usually irrationally) prejudiced against us.

      2. That we should remember that we're representing God Himself.

      3. That certain behavior is never all right, inherently.

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    2. The article is from nonFrum Jew and argues what it argues.

      Delete
    3. I don't know what "nonFrum" means. He's English, for starters. But lots of Jews fall for this "defend other Jews at all costs" thing.

      But that doesn't matter. The article may argue what it argues, but it has nothing to do with this post, which has nothing to do with anti-Semitism. The fact that *you* (not the article author) thought it did illustrates my points perfectly.

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    4. I didn't say or think anything about Antisemitism.

      Delete
    5. He did, and you posted it.

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    6. Oh, well, thanks for being so clear, then.

      Delete
    7. The article shows how blame can be put unfairly by fellow Jews on the Chareidim.

      Delete
    8. Except no one is blaming anyone for anything here.

      Delete
    9. Now you have an argument to make with the other commentators here.

      Delete
  25. A deep-rooted factor for this is that the for-the-masses Chassidic movement often aims for the LCD. (I was raised with other priorities, BTW.)

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  26. I've experienced this several times and refuse to fly E.A. I don't understand the litter aspect. I see it in Lkwd. when I visit family. I've seen both adults and children willfully litter, on the streets and in stores (not Jewish owned ones). People just drop trash on the ground. The last time I was in Lkwd.I watched a beautifully dressed and made up woman stop to have her son blow his nose and then just toss the used tissue on the side walk. You can drive down streets in Monsey or Lkwd and see trash cans in front of homes over flowing and litter blowing down the streets. (Lets face it, it's not that expensive to buy another trashcan if the ones you have aren't sufficient to handle the output of your family. And no it wasn't after a religious holiday.) Litter is endemic outside of Yeshivas, and you wonder why folks don't want them in their neighborhoods in Toms River and other communities seeing an influx of frum. Yea home prices go sky high but why live in a home you've paid over a half million for to see new frum neighbors acting like they've never seen a garbage can or know what to do with one.

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  27. At my last firm, my boss and his wife took a cruise (I believe it was to the Carribean). When he got back, he and his wife were complaining about how the cruise was full of Israelis, who were loud, rude, did not follow the ship rules, and overall made it unpleasant for everyone else. He was very down on Israelis, who generally do not like following rules and are known for, shall we say, less than polite behavior. None of those people were Chassidim or Charedi.
    Can we now generalize about Israelis? What is it about their culture that makes them that way?



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    1. Yes we can. There are reasons for this behaviour

      Delete
    2. Good point. The OP is extremely quick to point out bad behaviour and generalize when it comes to people he doesn't love. But is too blind to realize that it would be even easier to find bad behaviour among his own group. Just don't Google "Israeli behaviour hotels".

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    3. Huh? I'm completely ready to criticize Israeli behavior at hotels!

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  28. Help me out. Your neighbor and a friend happened to be on the same flight? A plane full of people but only your friend recorded this? It's incredibly disturbing but it's not been shared by anyone on YouTube. You have the video, but provided not a single screenshot of this minyan or the crew (including the captain!) trying to stop it. Your friend took no photos of the disturbance or the trash. Nothing that could identify the flight was revealed, not even the name of the airline. Other air incidents involving ultra Orthodox Jews have been well publicized, including video by passengers, but only you have this.

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  29. A few years ago I flew United to Israel from NY. Hadsidim on the plane refused to be seated unless their seats were changed because they didn't want to sit next to a woman. No one was complying with their demands and the plane was 30 minutes late in taking off because of this. The stewardess kept asking the men to sit but they refused. Finally she got very close to one of them and in a low growl she said , "Sir,if you don't sit down right now...I'm going to TOUCH you!" He sat down immediately, as did his friends. The plane took off. End of story.

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    1. If she'd added "...and I am menstruating" he would have had a stroke

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  30. Curiously enough, I was on a flight some 40 years ago from New York back to Detroit. Many if not most of the other passengers were Stoliner hassidim, traveling there to observe the yahrzeit of the Stoliner rebbe, who had died in Detroit and was buried there years earlier. (Not very far from my own Litvish grandparents!)

    I observed exactly the same behavior that afternoon as described in this post. The pilot had so much difficulty controlling the plane, due to the walking around and socializing, that he threatened to make an emergency landing and eject the unruly passengers. The flight attendants (they were still called stewardesses back then) were exasperated at their inability to get the hassidim to sit down and stop walking around.

    It was truly a chillul hashem. Finally, as a stewardess passed by my aisle seat I said "tell them you will touch them if they don't sit down and they'll scatter like a flock of birds." Shortly later they all began heading back to their seats. I thought to myself she must have threatened them. And it did work, as all the birds returned to their roosts.

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  31. Chassidim blocking the aisles has been a problem for decades. Sometimes its annoyed me too. But no one I know ever called it a "safety risk" as our humanitarian and Ohev Yisroel host does. I am curious, Professor Slifkin. In all those thousands upon thousands of flights in which Chassidim blocked the aisles - how many have crashed? How many have caused serious injury? How many passengers have been maimed?

    Your big "safety risk" is as true as pretty much everything else you claim. Next time you're out there swimming with sharks or playing with lions and telling yourself "fine for me but not for thee", think a little on the meaning of hypocrisy.

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    1. we don't have to cause planes to crash to be considered a problem, we are not Al Qaeda

      Chasidim being a nuisance and obnoxious is bad enough, is a chilul hashem, it a problem that need to be addressed and fixed. why deny it? why fight against those who point it out?

      in fact if you care about Chasidim (us) then you too should do something to change the situation

      Delete
    2. You're mixing up two things. Standing during turbulence is about safety (many dozens of people are injured every year by not being buckled during turbulence). Blocking the aisles is not about safety, it's about inconveniencing other people.

      Delete
  32. " In all those thousands upon thousands of flights in which Chassidim blocked the aisles - how many have crashed?"

    1) Survivorship bias. (I admit that it's only a theoretical concern.)
    But more to the point:
    2) Turbulence is a significant cause of injuries (and more rarely, death.) And most of those injured were not seated with seatbelts securely fastened. I don't know whether seated people haven gotten injured by a standing passenger being thrown onto them by turbulence. I suspect most passengers would get rather irate if a plane had to make an emergency landing to treat an injure passenger who selfishly wasn't seated and ignore the "fasten seat belt" lights.
    That being the case, you're making a fundamental error when dealing with halachic issues of safetly. Sometimes, one may engage in activities involving some small level of personal risk- at the same time one is forbidden expose another to that risk.
    Many poskim have forbidden davening with a minyan on a plane if it disturbs other passengers. R' Elyashiv said that even if just one passenger is disturbed and objects, it's forbidden to hold a minyan.

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  33. The problem is that Elal doesn't do anything . I was on a plane where a charefi guy was abusing a young woman for 4 hours because she refused to change seats with his mother who wanted an aisle seat .I was unbearable and scary. Not only did the staff not help, my letter of complaint(that gave his seat number) was answered with a almost comical answer..that I should not have complained to the air hostess...I should have complained to the cabinet .

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  34. Here is a worthwhile exercise that one, who doesn't want to hide his head in the sand, can do. Read the Main Kampf or any other antisemitic book, make a list of the antisemitic claims and mark next to each one of them: false, partially true, true.

    The Jewish community has invested a fortune in Holocaust museums and tolerance programs, but has done very little of self-analysis and introspection.

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