Monday, August 23, 2021

It's Time To Understand That You Don't Understand

Social skills are really not my area of expertise, to put it mildly. I've committed faux pas like you wouldn't believe; I cringe just to even think about them. I accept my shortcomings in this area, which is why I accept guidance in it from people with greater social skills than I. I'm also very ignorant about archeology, among many other fields of knowledge, and I'm terrible at parallel parking. And I'm ready to admit all this both to myself and to others. Why are some other people so reluctant to accept their shortcomings in particular areas?

Over the last few days I have been involved in discussions and arguments with several people who are not all-out anti-vaxxer conspiracy theorists, but who are either opposed to taking the Covid vaccine or are very skeptical about it. All these people are intelligent (well, most of them) and they are certain that they are demonstrating informed skepticism. Yet with each of them, I have demonstrated to them that they have fallen for outright lies and/or have made ridiculous errors of understanding. The correct conclusion for them to draw is that while they may be accomplished and intelligent in many areas, they are not capable of drawing intelligent conclusions about Covid and the vaccine, and that they should defer to experts, and cease spreading information and opinions on this topic. 

Here's some examples from today. Someone insisted to me that six thousand people in the US were killed by the vaccine - and also insisted that this was attested to by none other than the CDC! Of course, this is not at all true. What the CDC actually said was that six thousand people were reported as having died after taking the vaccine, not from the vaccine. And since nearly two hundred million Americans have been vaccinated, it is inevitable that many thousands of people die in any given period. Any deaths can be reported to VAERS, even by family members with no medical expertise, and are duly logged and investigated. Only three of these 6000 deaths were found to be linked to the vaccine (and in a way that can be prevented in future). The rest were just the thousands of deaths that were absolutely due to occur anyway during that period, vaccine or no vaccine, and it would be inexplicable if they didn't happen!

The claim that the CDC reported six thousand dead from the vaccine was not only false; it was utterly ridiculous. Yet it took a while for me to finally convince the person of that.

Here's another. Someone else insisted to me that he is not a layman and that he analyzes and understands all the information that he reads. This was right after he forwarded a message urging everyone to listen to the testimony of a doctor about how the vaccine changes your DNA! But this "doctor" was a psychologist rather than a physician, and the vaccine most certainly has absolutely zero effect on DNA. I pointed this out, along with other blatant nonsense that this person had fallen for - such as regarding the statistic discussed yesterday that most people in Israel currently sick with Covid are vaccinated, and that Bill Gates paid trillions (!!!) of dollars to try to stop a stupid anti-vaccine video. Shouldn't this cause the person to re-evaluate their claim that they are not a layman and that they analyze and understand all the information that they read?

One more. A person told me that it's not unreasonable to be against the vaccine, since there are "many, many virologists, immunologists, and doctors" who are against it. I replied that this just isn't true, whereupon the person said that "huge numbers" do exist and I'm just not aware of them. So I said, Fine, what's the evidence that there are "huge numbers" and "many, many" such professionals against it? And they responded that they've seen lots of videos! I pointed out they certainly hadn't seen videos of thousands or even hundreds of virologists, immunologists, and doctors who are against the vaccine!

So the person added that "a team of over ten thousand (sic!) medical experts led by Dr. Reiner Fuellmich have begun legal proceedings against the CDC." It took me just a few seconds to discover and point out that Reiner Fuellmich is a lawyer rather than a doctor, and more significantly, there are not ten thousand medical experts saying that they are on his team; the claim of ten thousand medical experts is stated by nobody other than Fuellmich! 

If there were thousands of virologists, immunologists, and doctors who are against the vaccine, then there would be a list of their names. No such list exists, because there are no such thousands of experts who exist. A claim that there are thousands of experts in support of a position is not evidence that there are thousands of experts in support of a position! 

In fact, over 98% of physicians are in favor of the vaccine (the evidence for my claim is here). And the percentage of immunologists, virologists and other specialists who are much more qualified than random physicians is doubtless even higher. In other words, the number of relevant experts who are in favor of the vaccine is not "many" or "most" - it's close to one hundred per cent! The number of relevant experts who are against the vaccine is negligible, and it makes absolutely no sense to choose to side with them.

Every day, there are hundreds of people dying painful, tragic, senseless deaths, because they were influenced by misinformation spread by people who thought that they understood the topic of vaccinations and the existence of expert disagreement better than they actually do. Why can't people admit that they are just not very good at evaluating information regarding Covid and vaccines and doctors? There's no shame in that. It would be the appropriate, honest and humble conclusion to draw. And it would prevent them being complicit in loss of life. 

(I ran all this by a PhD immunologist with twenty years of experience and a PhD pharmacologist with 25 additional years of molecular biology research, and everything that I wrote can be easily corroborated. Unless you think that I'm lying, you can share this post with those who are subject to misinformation.)


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124 comments:

  1. Natan are you serious or just plain dumb?!

    "And since nearly two hundred million Americans have been vaccinated, it is inevitable that many thousands of people die in any given period."

    This same exact argument can be made regarding all "thousands" of deaths supposedly attributed to covid.

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    1. Gosh, neither I nor the entire community of medical professionals ever thought of that!

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    2. Sure they "thought" about it, but it wouldn't fit the liberal and hysterical narrative to publicly concede such.

      Follow the money....

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    3. "deaths supposedly attributed to covid."


      So you're saying that covid is not so deadly? And that Fauci funded the Chinese to engineer a virus that's no worse than flu?

      Delete
    4. I can only assume that you are a product of Haredi education.

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    5. Avi, that's not true. You don't have to be a product of Haredi education to be an idiot.

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    6. So when someone catches covid, and his breathing gets worse and worse until he dies, he just died for no reason?
      When the death rate for 2020 is way higher than that of 2019, it is for no reason?
      Just wow!

      Delete
    7. If someone got covid and in 2 weeks needs to be put on a ventilator, what do you think actually happened to his lungs if it wasn't a pneumonia caused by the virus that thoroughly infected his lungs?

      And why were there so many excess deaths in 2020?

      Must be all a big coincidence eh? Cancer suddenly got deadlier in 2020 and there just happened to be a virus going around.

      Delete
    8. chaim - it’s so refreshing to see a comment from an obviously morally thinking person! keep spreading rays of truth & true “safety”....the same nincompoops who were dysfunctionally obsessed with being “safe” are now running for their third dose of an experimental crappy injection that killed ALL the animals in previous trials,

      Delete
    9. @Ita
      None of the covid vaccine products killed animals in animal studies. All companies submitted animal studies to FDA as part of the requirement to develop these products.
      You were lied to, and now you're spreading nonsense.

      Delete
  2. I'm going to comment and then read your piece. My comment is that the creator of the RNA device is anti jab. The ex vice president of Pfizer is anti jab. A Nobel prize winner and many many experts in the field of virus and genetics and this sort of science have spoken out with great concerns over these jabs. Many doctors have been silenced on the internet and their posts blocked and removed. These are not cranks or misinformed but experts. Actual medical experts. Not psyops experts as are many who control the one narrative allowed globally about emergency use experimental vaccines with no consequences for their makers. Ok, now I'll read your views...

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    1. "I'm going to comment and then read your piece." Glad to hear that you read it with an open mind.

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    2. https://www.statnews.com/2021/05/24/stanford-professor-and-nobel-laureate-critics-say-he-was-dangerously-misleading-on-covid/

      Being a Nobel prize winner doesn't make you a covid or vaccine expert. That's just an argument from authority and a bad one at that.

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    3. If you can't look around at the millions of people who received the vaccine and are no worse for wear, then no amount of logic will convince you that the vaccine is statistically safer than the virus. It is literally more dangerous to drive across town than to receive the vaccine.

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    4. "That's just an argument from authority and a bad one at that."

      Arguments from authority form the core of Rabbi Slifkin's positions, particularly on COVID-related topics. What's more, any expert who deviates from what Rabbi Slifkin has decided is acceptable opinion is perforce called "a fringe crank," despite the fact that he would never consider them as such, had they never deviated from his framework of acceptable opinion. It's all cleverly designed to ensure that he doesn't have to think about the actual issues, and yet still smugly revel in his rationalism.

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    5. Avi,

      Nasty effects from the vaccine, if they do happen, can take years to develop. 'No worse for wear proves nothing'. Look at the number of smokers who appear 'no worse for wear'. Until suddenly they do.

      Delete
    6. Yeadon is a clown. You shouldn't cite him.
      And he's already been horribly wrong many times. How many times does he have to be wrong before he's no longer your Pied Piper?

      Delete
    7. I've actually looked up a bunch of well known doctors who are against the vaccine and found out that they were all spreading demonstrably false information (including Yeadon who isn't actually vp of Pfizer)

      Delete
  3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias is a blind spot for many people, even very smart ones
    kvct

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  4. I happen to love these topics, and I am 100% on your side - I spend a fair share of my time enjoying debating and debunking the anti-vaxxers. But I don't understand what this has to do with Rationalist Judaism...

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    1. Some people argue that it is not the virus that kills you it is retzon Hashem, so instead of vaccinating they rely on tefila, segulot (like the hand shaped that goes on the main entrance), etc.. the don't make hishtadlut because they are not rational.

      Delete
  5. I'm not an anti-vaxxer. I haven't gotten the COVID vaccine and I do not plan to. I'm self employed (now, although I worked with the public all last year) so I don't have to worry about that form of coercion. I'm cool with other people getting their shots, whatever their reasons. I'm even OK with people telling me I'm a mass murderer for not getting the shot. I have no control over what other people think, say or do. Nor do I desire control over anybody or anything but the workings of my own mind. Libido dominande was never a "thing" with me, although I do bristle at others telling me what to do or think.

    If you can convince me to get the vaccine maybe I would. No one has as of yet.

    My wife had COVID last fall, still can't smell the bisomim motzi shabbos, although she can smell some things. She's fine otherwise. Several of my children have had it. One probably had it in Dec 2019. Some have tested positive for it and some have tested positive for anitbodies. I've never tested positive nor have I ever tested positive for antibodies. I've never had a flu shot nor have I ever had the flu. I had strep in 1977 on the east coast and again in Missouri in 1997. The past 2 years have been the healthiest 2 years in my 54 years on this planet. My work and somewhat lax safety practices almost guarantee that I will be cut on an almost daily basis. When I'm cut I grab the nearest rag or dirty tissue (or crazy glue) to apply direct pressure, stop the bleeding and use whatever tape (duct, electrical or masking) I have at hand to secure it and continue working. If (or often when) it gets infected it's fine after two to three days. I stepped on a rusty old nail this spring while working on an attic conversion. Can't tell you what the dust situation was in that attic. No, I wasn't wearing a mask. The house was built in 1938 and many critters had been living in it. Yes, there was definitely animal fecal matter in that dust. Asbestos and lead too most likely. Back to the nail, it went clean through my Chippewa boot and penetrated my foot by at least a 1/4". I limped for three days due to the slight pain and swelling. My foot was fine by the fourth day.

    Oh, and mosquitos don't like me and I've never gotten poison ivy/oak/sumac. No, I'm not a city boy. I grew up in the South Jersey (Mosquito = NJ State Bird) and I basically lived in the woods.

    I could go on and on in this vein, but I'll stop here.

    My point is that why should I get the vaccine. Please tell me.
    I'm not saying COVID isn't real. I may still get it. I may even die from it. One thing is for sure, I will die someday. Maybe they should study my blood. I'm willing to sell it, maybe $2K an ounce?

    I'll listen to peoples opinions, educated or not. I've an open mind. I've still not been convinced to take the shot.

    Rant over.

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    1. You should get it so as to show you're not a narcissistic piece of trash.

      Delete
    2. Some people learn only from their own experience, as opposed to learning from the collective experiences of millions of others. You remind me of Phil Valentine..

      https://apnews.com/article/entertainment-health-coronavirus-pandemic-5140537d820d0d9f524628180a08e520




      Delete
    3. Every decision we make exists on a cost/benefit continuum. I see you realize that with your analysis of your personal health. At 54 you're just starting to be at higher risk for Covid, but it's still relatively low. Of course the risk of the vaccine is orders of magnitude lower.

      However, one difference between this and other examples you brought is that there is a societal component here. The vaccines are not going to eradicate Covid, it's not that type of disease, but the more people that vaccinate, the faster we'll turn into something more akin to a flu or even a common cold.

      Effectively what you're doing is misidentifying the risk. It's not about you personally, but about society in general. The more people that get vaccinated, the faster we can all return to "normal". It's pretty much that simple.

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    4. @Michael Lipkin
      "the more people that vaccinate, the faster we'll turn into something more akin to a flu or even a common cold"
      What do you mean by this? Do you mean if everyone would vaccinate within a specific time frame?

      Delete
    5. Same as Frank. I'd take the vaccine too, if it was safe or there was a risk. After all, I've taken all the vaccines in use for decades, and all my children are vaccinated. But I've seen nothing and heard nothing that tells me either it is safe or there's any risk that justifies taking an untested emergency use drug.

      See, that's the chief difference between the true believers and the skeptics. I'm here on this militantly true believer blog, and its impossible to get away from the pervasive left-wing media that helped create the Covid hysteria. I know what you guys have to say. But you guys are totally ignorant of the evidence against it. It is quite literally suppressed by tech companies, formally and officially in league with politicians. You have no idea, whatsoever, of the manipulated data your side relied on to create the hysteria, and are totally ignorant of what we're seeing. You tell yourself we're being bamboozled by laughable "British Medical Journal" nonsense, because you're entirely unaware of the other side. It's always like that. The right knows the left, but the left doesn't understand the right.

      If we saw any evidence, whatsoever, that Natan Slikfin was capable of a reasoned and knowledgeable discussion of the various pro and con arguments, it would be one thing. But we haven't. All we've seen is patronizing foolishness, lies, and name-calling. Maybe red meat for the true believers, but doesn't do much to win friends and influence people.

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    6. Frank/Feivel's point is that he is a unique specimen and barely gets sick. Well, my friend, neither do I. But I am not interested in being an asymptomatic carrier to my aging mother-in-law or my parents or to any immunocompromised person who comes along.

      Young Mr. Schreiber: your argument is NOT the same as Feivel's: Feivel said nothing about whether the vaccine is safe. And as the complete health of virtually everyone who has gotten the shot testifies, the vaccine is safe! Sure, you can have a few days of discomfort. And people who are prone to inflammatory whatsits should probably not get it bc the inflammatory response might reawaken their disease (even assuming that it's physiologic and not all psychologic) but OMG the thing is safe! Stop beating the dead unicorn already!

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    7. @Michoel, I don't think the time frame matters. The vaccines are working to prevent serious disease and death. In highly vaccinated locations it's mainly unvaccinated people who end up in the ICU and dying.

      @A. Schreiber, sounds like you're not getting great information and on top of that you have a chip on your shoulder regarding Rabbi Slifkin.

      I've found some amazing medical professionals to follow on Twitter and elsewhere... Monica Gandhi, Eran Segal, Vinay Prassad and so many more. They are science based and give it straight up. Probably the best one to follow is Dr. Zuban Demania he has an amazing YouTube presence. If you're truly looking for good information that's no biased either way not steeped in conspiracy thinking I suggest you give him a try...

      https://www.youtube.com/user/ZDoggMD

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    8. @A. Schreiber:

      "But I've seen nothing and heard nothing that tells me either it is safe or there's any risk that justifies taking an untested emergency use drug."

      It's been given to hundreds of millions of people. It's one of the most scrutinized medical interventions in history, in terms of scale, numbers, and public attention. And it's been given full approval by the FDA.

      At what point, in your mind, does it go from being an "untested emergency used drug" to something you would be vaccinated with? I'm genuinely asking.

      Delete
    9. In response to Yosef R, and Joe Q, to answer to your question:

      First, for all but the aged and/or the sick, Covid is not a serious risk. Thus, for no other reason alone, and unless you fall into one of those categories, you shouldn't be taking it.

      Second, even if everyone who took it is fine - and that is not at all the case, see below - it would still be very risky to take it, because there have been no long term studies on it. This is brand new. Every other vaccine both you and I ever took was tested for years before it was deemed safe. Not this one. This is an emergency use drug that was rushed to market at light speed, not a properly tested vaccine. For that reason alone, again, no one should take it.

      Third, it is not safe al all! People are dying, getting blood clots, myocarditis. Women are experiencing much higher proportions of miscarriages, damaged ovaries. It is not at all safe. To say that that you personally took it and are fine is like saying I personally never got Covid. In fact, the overwhelming super-majority of healthy people either never got Covid at all, or were not harmed at all by it. If the fact that some people aren't harmed is good enough, then why are we doing this in the first place?

      All these reasons independently are reasons not to take it, and certainly when considered together. Of course, all this is in top of the fact that, apart from anything I said, the vaccine JUST DOESNT WORK.

      One final point. Unlike Professor Slifkin, I don't pretend to be an expert on this. Nor am I an outlier, there are growing millions of people who say the same thing. Yosef R and Joe Q, you asked a fair question, and I tried to give a fair response. You are entitled to disagree with me, as I am entitled to disagree with you. But the arrogance and ignorance of this post and the post below it, believing that all these millions have no objective basis, and have all been taken in by a stupid "British Medical Journal" ad, for pete's sake, is mind boggling.

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    10. I’m speculating Frank is pulling you all’s legs. SATIRE. ACJA

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    11. I'm not advocating that people who want it shouldn't get it. I'm not asking for reasons I should take it. I'm simply saying I see no reason to introduce this into my body. Justin Trudeau recently said yes vaccine or no, your choice. But if you don't take the vaccine you cant fly or ride a train. Then, with a straight face, what gives you the right to endanger people who took the vaccine. Am I missing something here? Please see HR 4980. That non COVID vaccinatees be banned from flying makes sense for those who truly believe that we are a danger. I disagree but I can see the logic. Why then are the COVID non vaccinatees also banned from their free exercise of their Second Ammendment rights? Is it remotely possible that the government is intent on disarming law abiding citizens simply for disagreement? Again, I see no reason to get the vaccine myself but I see many NON MEDICAL reasons for questioning the political machinations behind the Control Hysteria surrounding it.
      I'll just add, see Peleh Yo"etz 146 V'Hayarei. I have a jar of 100 jelly beans. One is laced with cyanide. You want one?

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    12. @A Schreiber

      It's a bit hard to know how to reply -- I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall.

      COVID can be very serious even for younger, healthy people. In the jurisdiction where I live (15M people) there are as many 30-50 y.o. COVID hospitalizations as there are 60-80 y.o. And it's an infectious disease, so even if it isn't serious for you, it might be serious for the people you give it to. It is a mistake to think of this as a vaccine against some lifestyle-related condition.

      The COVID vaccines were rushed to market at light speed because of the seriousness of the pandemic. They were tested in tens of thousands of people before it got EUA. It has since been administered to hundreds of millions and has been extensively scrutinized. Many people suffer side effects from the vaccine, but they are almost always mild. Myocarditis happens, at a rate of about one person per 100,000 vaccinated. Adverse effects are scrutinized very closely -- this vaccine is no more dangerous than the others you've had.

      The bit you quoted about miscarriages and damaged ovaries has been "Fisked" extensively elsewhere. You've fallen for anti-vaxxer sheker in taking those claims seriously. Read more deeply and follow their "reasoning" before taking those claims seriously.

      The vaccines do work. This is shown over and over again. In my jurisdiction, despite the highly infectious Delta variant predominating, unvaccinated people are about 10 times more likely to get COVID, and about 25 times more likely to be hospitalized for it. I'm not sure how one can say "they don't work" with a straight face.

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    13. Yosef R, asymptomtiac implies that I would test positive, no? I've gotten tested over and over (when they were still requiring tests for EVERYTHING) and I've ALWAYS been negative. I don't understand how it's possible with all the hype. Maybe my smoking is the reason. Every doctor I've discussed the smoking/COVID issue with (save one) has told me that they don't know why but smokers seem to skate on this. No, I am not advising people to start smoking.

      Delete
    14. Joe Q - you say you feel like you're banging your head against the wall. I understand you well, as I feel exactly the same.

      I read your response. I started to respond, but gave up. There really is no point in debating it, because this is not merely *like* debating politics, it *is* debating politics. And, similar to politics, you are reading and seeing completely different things than I am. I think the best we can hope for is that we (i.e, the two sides) don't resort to physical violence, because no one will be convinced the other side aren't morons, and it's becoming similarly impossible even to refrain from saying so.

      Delete
    15. @A. Schreiber --

      Why'd you give up?

      You made claims that can be verified by counting and measuring things. You should be able to support your claims by citing data, as I did with mine. It's not at all like politics.

      Number of people in vaccine trials, number of people of different age ranges hospitalized for COVID, number of miscarriages following COVID vaccinations, number of people severely ill with COVID based on vax status, etc.

      In each of those cases, the numbers have been measured. They don't support your arguments -- they disprove them.

      That you keep repeating your arguments in the face of the contradictory data strongly suggests you're spouting shtus to bolster your preconceived ideology about vaccines and COVID. In that sense, yes, you are debating politics (while the rest of us talk data).

      Delete
    16. Mr. Schreiber -
      Since the beginning of the pandemic, the argument has been the same. Regarding lockdowns, masks, social distancing and vaccination. People are claiming that they themselves are fine, and the answer has been "perhaps, but your behavior affects others too." And no answer has been forthcoming.
      So far, as far as debate is concerned, the ball is in your court. Answer why you don't have responsibility to others to get vaccinated.
      After your claims of 'untested' have been debunked, you would need to stop using that claim.

      Delete
  6. This may be the funniest thing you've ever posted. "But I PROVED it to them, I DEMONSTRATED it, I am the smart one, how can they fail to recognize my brilliance..." lol. Thank you for giving me a huge smile, באמת. Good night!

    Still laughing....

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    1. There is no harm that could befall you which is not deserved.

      Delete
  7. The Salk vaccine 'testing' was 1.8 million school kids getting inoculated. It was a risk benefit decision.(Salks research design was much disputed.) Parents like mine, had us vaccinated. Some kids weren't part of that first 'experiment' and caught polio. Today we are learning more about Post Polio Syndrome. I would guess that we will learn more about the Covid long haulers in a generation.

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  8. Fuellmich? Sounds like that name means "Full of myself"!

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  9. Just this title is hilarious. Do you not see yourself AT ALL??

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    1. Of course I do! I know that I am not an expert in vaccines! That's why I follow the experts!

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    2. The same experts that are on payroll?......

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    3. Yes, there are experts who are paid to study and talk about this stuff... does anyone really have time to sift through all the data? This is a job. Do you not buy newspapers because reporters are paid to write the articles? Do you not buy books because the authors and publishers get paid for their dissemination?

      Delete
    4. Yup, "just trust the experts!" Now what in the world are you doing on rational blog with that kind of view?!

      Delete
  10. Yeah, I'll admit the DNA stuff freaked me out a bit. So I asked someone who knows a lot more about these things than I do, she explained exactly what the mRNA does and doesn't do in this case (fortunately, I had a good biology education in high school and college, so she didn't have to start from square one), and my mind was put at ease, well before I was even eligible to get the shot.

    By the way, you have to be careful with those continental lawyers, who often go by "Dr." (Hence, "Dr. Theodore Herzl.") In Israel, too, you have a lot more "Dr." lawyers than in English-speaking countries, although here it's an actual doctorate in law. I like the Anglo system much better, and even better is the old New York Times rule that only physicians and dentists are automatically entitled to the "Dr." out of professional context.

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    1. There is an old Jewish joke about a "Talmudist" on a train who deduces his seatmate's identity based on his dress, his ticket (they are going to the same shtetl), and his briefcase, figuring he is a lawyer. He addresses him as "Doctor Kovacs." I remember being intrigued by that title's application, figuring it was a European thing, or at least a pre-war thing.

      Delete
  11. You are a perfect example of your thesis - being a zoologist doesn't make you smart.

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  12. As some would say: if the vaccine was deadly I'd still take it, if the alternative is be left in a world of anti-vaccers

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  13. Let's stick with just the facts:

    The countries with a higher percentage of their population vaccinated, have had a higher rate of re-infection.

    Take USA and Israel as prime examples.

    Draw whatever conclusions you'd like, however the facts remain.

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    Replies
    1. The three levels of quackery:
      1) Getting the data wrong
      2) Correct reading the data, but interpreting the data wrong
      3) Interpreting the data correctly, but jumping to conclusions due to it.

      Let's start with (1). Where's you source for this claim? Is re-infection rates even being reported for many countries?

      Then we can move on to (2)

      Delete
    2. Rivka,
      What reinfection rate are you even talking about? Are you trying to say that previously infected people are having higher rates of reinfection if they got vaccinated than if they didn't?
      That's just not true.
      Multiple studies (in multiple locations) have shown that previously infected people who get the Covid vaccination have lower reinfection rate than previously infected people who don't get the covid vaccination.
      If this isn't what you're trying to say, then you really didn't word correctly whatever it is you were trying to say. You're going to have to rephrase it and explain more clearly.

      Delete
  14. FORGET COVID; STOP DRINKING WATER!!! THAT IS THE REAL KILLER!
    All people who die drink water (or are given water via IV) within 24 hours before they die. Stop drinking water!

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  15. How about letting people decide for themselves of what they wish to do with their bodies is regards to vaccine or no vaccine?

    The greater issue is personal freedom as opposed to totalitarianism that is creeping upon society in the name of "safety".

    Ssvi

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    Replies
    1. It's no crime to try to make people no longer stupid.

      And since we are talking about a transmissable condition, helping everyone not be a source of infection benefits everyone else.

      And let's not be blind here, having a country where large numbers of people die or are otherwise incapacitated will be a huge drain on that country's resources.

      Delete
  16. Vaccines and lockdowns surely work. Israel was the first country that vaccinated most population. And the only country that had three ridiculous lockdowns (try to tell Americans they are not allowed to invite their relatives for yom tov). And what's now?

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    1. Why are you bringing up lockdowns? The post is about vaccines.

      But you seem to be saying that vaccinations cause lockdowns. This is nonsense. The last lockdown occurred well before most of the country was fully vaccinated.

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    2. But you seem to be saying that vaccinations cause lockdowns.

      I am saying neither vaccine or lockdown is a solution to pandemic.
      The last lockdown occurred well before most of the country was fully vaccinated.

      And the next lockdown that likely happens soon, would occur when most population is vaccinated.

      Delete
  17. VAERS is a self-reporting tool. Except for those who do their own research, the vest majority of people never even heard of it. So, the actual amount of vaccination deaths surely remains unreported.

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    1. It's actually federal law for all deaths following the vaccine to be reported to VAERS.

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    2. " the vest majority of people never even heard of it. "

      Source for this claim?

      Delete
    3. Source for the counterclaim? You aren't just asking a question, you are being vexatious.

      Most of your pithy assertions are actually incorrect. You should remember the JTA article I showed you that Rabbi Kook the younger published in support of Kahana as a teaching moment that your prejudices - in this case about the saintliness of the national-religious movement - aren't always correct.

      Delete
    4. Where does it say death after vaccine has to be reported to VAERS, and who would do it? All it says on VAERS site is "Healthcare providers are strongly encouraged to report to VAERS: Any adverse event that occurs after the administration of a vaccine". https://vaers.hhs.gov/reportevent.html

      Delete
    5. https://vaers.hhs.gov/faq.html

      "Healthcare providers are required to report to VAERS the following adverse events after COVID-19 vaccination [under Emergency Use Authorization (EUA)], and other adverse events if later revised by CDC:

      Vaccine administration errors, whether or not associated with an adverse event (AE)
      Serious AEs regardless of causality. Serious AEs per FDA are defined as:
      Death;
      A life-threatening AE;
      Inpatient hospitalization or prolongation of existing hospitalization;
      A persistent or significant incapacity or substantial disruption of the ability to conduct normal life functions;
      A congenital anomaly/birth defect;
      An important medical event that based on appropriate medical judgement may jeopardize the individual and may require medical or surgical intervention to prevent one of the outcomes listed above.
      "

      Delete
    6. Anyone that got the vaccine received a vaccine card which said on it that any negative side effects should be reported to VAERS, and their website address was given.

      Delete
  18. Just to be a Devil's Advocate, the link you sent from the American Medical Association that says 98% (actually 96% with half the remaining "planning to"), kinda gives evidence to the possibility of Fuellmich's claim being true.

    The FSMB (Federation of State Medical Boards) census of 2018 showed the existence of 892,583 Doctors of Medicine in the US. So if 2% are against the vaccine, that comes out to ~18,000 doctors not taking the vaccine. Granted, most of them are probably not going to be ganging up to sue the CDC, but the fact remains that in a nation of 300 million, 2% is unfortunately not so small.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Good point. But there's also the point that if there were 10,000 physicians in his team as he claimed, he'd be able to list some names!

      Delete
    2. There is something colloquially called "lizardmans constant" that in any survey, there is a certain small percentage of people who will give nonsense answers. For example, in a poll about if people think police are good or bad, about 3% "never heard of them".

      https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/12/noisy-poll-results-and-reptilian-muslim-climatologists-from-mars/

      Delete
    3. If you want to understand why doctors have lost a lot of trust, maybe loudly advocating for public services to be shut, people to be prohibited from earning their living, and widespread curtailments of other freedoms is a wise place to start. Doctors on snarky social media posts have enthusiastically jumped into mask culture wars. I don't trust them.

      Delete
    4. Hat, this is so old already - for people to go an earn their living, they would get sick and die or have others around them die. For every one saying that it's not fair to "make" people stay home, there were people decrying big companies who were "making" employees come to work. Sure, fiberglass shields eventually were put in place along with other strategies, but as a freedom loving sort such as you, I find it odd you are not siding with the latter group!

      Delete
    5. The Hat. I have caught Medical Doctors employed by Big Media of either being ignorant of the medical facts of COVID or outright lying or misleading about COVID. I think it is the latter. The same applies to Big Media. They all have become like the boy who cried Wolf. True journalism is now the exception. ACJA

      Delete
    6. Yosef R: my point being that Lockdowns is a political decision. There are costs and benefits, many of which doctors have no expertise in. Doctors and their organisations have been authoritarian and absolutist in their understanding of how their perspective are to be balanced against other societal needs. They have shown zero humility, complete confidence, and zero understanding of is and isn't their legitimate domain. Of course that political approach has consequences.

      Nowadays it seems no medical intrusion on liberty is too much for trifling health gains, with no cost and benefit analysis, no consultation, no democracy and no consent.

      Delete
  19. Rabbi Dr. Slifkin, since you're posting on the topic: What websites for *Israeli* news, if any, would you be able to recommend as, *relatively speaking,* providing accurate and unbiased information on COVID *in Israel*? I.e., the Israeli equivalent of either reporting news without opinion or reporting facts while being open to criticizing both the left and the right instead of being uniformly partisan. If such reporting doesn't regularly appear in English, I'll take whatever Hebrew websites you can refer to.

    To give you an idea of the websites I consider, as an American, for *relatively* "raw" information oriented to *America*, they include: AP articles printed on vinnews.com (yes, I recognize AP's anti-Israel slant) and jns.org/writers/jonathan-s-tobin (the latter being a rare opinion writer who acknowledges problems of both the left and right in American and Israeli politics). For coronavirus I read the WSJ daily emails, though I find the NY/NJ oriented pix11.com/news/coronavirus to do an excellent job reporting the COVID basics of what to know in America in general PLUS what to know as far as the states of New York and New Jersey are specifically concerned with COVID guidelines.

    What's a good website to stay up to date on COVID *in Israel*? (Of use to someone visiting or living in Israel in terms of where virus cases are up, often-changing restrictions and guidelines, who's eligible for vaccination at what point, etc.?)

    I'm asking for basic, "bland," COVID news for Israel. I'm not specifically asking for reporting on communities that can be blamed for not following restrictions and news of this nature (though that'd be a plus and make for an interesting read), since I fear there may not be an outlet that regularly reports, with accuracy, on this topic. As far as America's concerned, I've haven't found a source that consistently reports on what's really happening in New York in terms of Jewish attitudes common (but not uniform). Instead, many frum writers trip over themselves to criticize the non-Jews and specifically the Democrats and their policies instead of recognizing how, while some criticism may be valid, there is much criticism to be directed inwards. For example: Yes, don't rush to close schools/shuls down, but that doesn't mean you should keep everything open with no precautions like appropriate ventilation and face masks. Instead, frum media often appear to see things as being a binary choice, with a middle ground apparently considered to be not socially acceptable. Otherwise, there would've been serious reporting on all the frum venues I've seen open in New York with zero precautions even in 2020 pre-vaccine (no, having a "masks required" sign doesn't help if people aren't actually wearing masks or expected to do so).

    Since I consider your website to be generally accurate and rooted in reality (on whatever you write about), I'm hoping you can direct me to reliable Israeli-COVID reading material. (Who knows, maybe I and other readers can get our "secular" news from there and leave you free to focus on the really important things which you are uniquely qualified to educate about, instead of getting sidetracked by anti-vaxxers and other such craziness not unique to the Jewish people.) Because I don't live in Israel I'm not really able to evaluate if something's propaganda or misdirection from criticism that should be inwardly directed. Living in America and being able to see with my own eyes what happens in the (New York) Jewish community, I can read outlets like the Jewish Press, Yated (American), YWN, VIN News, or Ami Magazine while remaining fully aware that they have not been a source of honest and unbiased *reporting* on COVID in the Jewish community (vs. the odd, and rare, opinion column that might appear somewhere like the English Mishpacha).

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Arieh Kovler on twitter (although he has a sectarian bent).

      Delete
  20. How convenient to leave out All the therapies that are an alternative to vaccines using drugs alternate purpose use such as ivermectin hcq and others which have been seem to provide relief and reduce the inflammation for people who have on set of the virus but which has been completely suppressed by the media ever since Trump suggested it and even when a doctor went to the Senate to testify as to the efficacy of ivermectin it has all been shut down and no one's allowed to talk about it and it has been suppressed such a point that now governments have threatened pharmacies and do not allow them to fill medical prescriptions for these drugs. The reason that many people are skeptical about the vaccine is due to all the censorship and cancel culture for anything that is not part of the party line which makes everyone suspect what is it that they're trying to hide? However Florida is providing these therapies allowing patients a choice. The inventor of the MRNA spike protein vaccine himself, Dr Robert Malone is opposed to it being used for COVID 19 citing the dangers to young people and a leaked CDC paper reveals the pfiser shot to be only 39% effective. With all the info out there I will get a second medical expert opinion which is a fully legitimate option.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thank you for perfectly illustrating the point of this post. You have fallen for total nonsense. For example, Robert Malone is not the inventor of the MRNA spike protein vaccine!

      Delete
    2. How convenient, Rabbi, to point some minor issue in the post and completely skip over such issues as: availability of Ivermectin, HCQ, censorship and suppression of information about dangers of this 'vaccine' and many more.

      And now for your 'for example'. This is from https://www.rwmalonemd.com/about-us

      "Dr. Malone is the discoverer of in-vitro and in-vivo RNA transfection and the inventor of mRNA vaccines..."

      At https://www.rwmalonemd.com/news/7ea84jm9hlt36rnk4g5ex5l5zwbtxt
      you can read his analysis of recent FDA approval of this jab.

      You should really educate yourself about this 'vaccine'.
      As they say "In this day and age ignorance is a choice".

      Delete
    3. Ivermectin is generally safe, but has been shown to be no better than placebo in treating COVID. The major study (from Egypt) showing it to be advantageous was retracted due to scientific fraud on the part of the authors, who fabricated data to support their conclusions.

      There are still many ongoing studies for ivermectin in treatment of COVID -- dozens of them. You can find this info in any clinical trials database. The idea that ivermectin has been suppressed is a total lie. But things do not look promising, as the larger and better-controlled the studies are, the less ivermectin seems to actually do anything.

      The major issue with ivermectin is that people are following medical misinformation (much of it spread by people like Malone and Kory) and self-medicating with veterinary ivermectin meant for de-worming large farm animals. This is causing a spike in hospital admissions due to people self-poisoning with doses of ivermectin meant for a 1,000-kg horse or cow, plus excipients that are not meant for human consumption.

      Malone seems to be embroiled in a deep Intellectual Property dispute over mRNA vaccines. It will be interesting to see how that dispute plays out in court. In the meantime, his credibility on COVID is in major doubt as he has made a large number of demonstrably false statements about the disease, its epidemiology, and its treatment.

      Delete
    4. Robert Malone IS the inventor of the MRNA system but of course you went to Google to verify his credentials, well google went ahead and did an Orwell on him and removed him from many searches. You need to stop being naïve and smug as you may not have all the information.
      Also, Dr Nathan, as one who detests hypocrisy, have you nothing to say of the clear conflicts of interest of Fauci and his group at NIH making money and the biggest one of all, the absolutely detestable demented Biden telling everyone to get vaccinated after he told the FDA to fast track approval and at the same time leaving the border wide open allowing anyone and anybody from any country to come in unchecked untested bringing in virus bringing in Delta bringing in every sort of disease you could imagine without any kind of restriction and then busting them on purpose to different cities so as to make it look like it's not so bad and just spread around the sickness everywhere it's absolutely disgusting what's going on and I cannot believe that you're actually supporting the party line instead of being a Jew and who questions everything we take our orders from Hashem not from man.

      Delete
    5. https://truthbasedmedia.com/2021/08/18/mrna-tech-inventor-dr-robert-malone-easier-for-delta-to-kill-vaccinated-than-jab-free-people/

      Delete
    6. I read through the link provided Elie. There are a few logical leaps and the "thread edited for format" section has a few demonstrably false statements. The one that jumped out at me was his defintion of Ro, which confuses population spread of disease with individual behaviour.

      His claims are also unsupported by data from jurisdictions all over the world. Checking the latest data from the jurisdiction where I live (and where Delta is the dominant strain), the vast majority of ICU patients are unvaccinated, and the rate of COVID hospitalization of unvaccinated people is about 25x higher than for vaccinated people.

      This is where "logical reasoning" based arguments made by people like Dr. Malone have to be checked against reality and actual data. If you have a model of how things work and it makes predictions that are wrong, perhaps you need to revise the model.

      Delete
    7. Biden being incompetent in many realms has nothing to do with how well the vaccine works. Even a stopped (analog!) clock is right twice a day - the border policy, the Afghanistan policy, and much in the way of social policy might be completely misguided and wrong - mazeltov! That does not negate the benefits of vaccination. I do not follow Biden; I follow the CDC and the medical establishment.

      And the NIH is a government institution. It does not "make money" on the vaccine. Obviously, the makers of the vaccine do make money, and of course they should bc if not for remuneration, nobody would do anything. But that's why we have independent observers.

      And yeah, you aren't wrong, there is something fishy at the FDA nowadays - exhibit A is the recent Alzheimer drug scandal - but overall there has been no true whistleblowing here.

      Delete
    8. The worst part about the Malone citers is that they think that just because he worked on mRNA in the lab and was one of the earliest adopters of the concept that that somehow means he has insight about these products and how they impacts a human population. He is someone who understands mRNA and how it works in the body and how to experiment with it in the lab (and dose some animals). He has never put mRNA vaccines into people, he has never had a marketed product, and he has never tested mrna vaccine in a large population and tracked it over time. He has no more insight into how safe these products are or "What's gonna happen, man?" at the population level or the supposed "longterm concerns" than the local Weatherman does.
      He also has no special insights into how epidemics proceed.
      He and his wife sure want the spotlight though.

      Delete
  21. Majority of Physicians Decline COVID Shots, according to Survey

    American Association of Physicians and Surgeons

    https://aapsonline.org/majority-of-physicians-decline-covid-shots-according-to-survey/

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thank you for perfectly illustrating the point of this post. You have fallen for total nonsense. The majority of physicians most certainly did not decline Covid shots. You don't understand how to understand what you read, and you don't understand that you don't understand how to understand what you read.

      Delete
    2. You should also scrutinize the AMA's source data to the poll. It happens to be behind a pay wall. I haven't paid, so I haven't seen it.

      My point here is that you are trusting one source too much. The AMA has their own agenda, just like every other institution. I don't know much about them, but they say right on the survey announcement what their agenda is...

      "For months, the AMA has worked to bolster vaccine confidence, reduce vaccine hesitancy and provide physicians with the information and resources they need to answer patient questions. "

      Delete
    3. @Isaac Waxman

      You quoted the American Association of Physicians and Surgeons, not the American Medical Association.

      The latter is a professional organization, while the former is a right wing political group with a long history of anti-vax and anti-gay activity.

      Delete
    4. I quoted AMA. Their own words on the survey page.

      https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-survey-shows-over-96-doctors-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19

      Delete
    5. Yes. The AMA's agenda is to promote health. Since the vaccine is a good tool for that, they are working to bolster confidence in the vaccine.

      In other words, they are doing their job. You may call it an "Agenda," implying nefarious intent, but it really is an agenda, a benign item on a list of things that will help public health.

      That's like saying swimming pools have an agenda because they encourage people to bring towels.

      Delete
    6. A better job for the AMA would be to evaluate, and continuously re-evaluate the pfizer injections along with all potential treatments for COVID 19. The technology is new. The vaccines are new. It is too early to be so confident.

      Delete
  22. Where did the over 98% figure come from? I saw on the link you sent over 96% of doctors, with 55% of the remainder (so just over 2% of all doctors) not planning on taking it in the future.

    Also, your assertion that people more expert in the field than 'random physicians' would have a higher vaccine uptake seems to be drawing the target around the arrow. I could just as easily claim that 'random physicians' are more susceptible to pro-vaccine government propaganda, but that I was sure the uptake rate amongst field experts like immunologists would be lower.

    Also, in the comments above you mentioned that Robert Malone is not the inventor of the mRNA spike protein vaccine. I don't think the intention of the commenter was that he'd invented the specific vaccine for Covid (he holds the spike protein to be cytotoxic so would never intentionally generate it), just that he discovered the technology that made it possible. Kedikhsiv beWikipedia: "Malone conducted studies on messenger ribonucleic acid (mRNA) technology, discovering that it was possible to transfer mRNA protected by a liposome into cultured cells to signal the information needed for the production of proteins".

    ReplyDelete
  23. It's deeply disappointing to see how eager some elements of the frum community have been to wallow in the shtus and sheker of anti-vax ignorance.

    It makes me wonder how much is due to poor secular education in the sciences, how much is due to lack of critical analysis skills, how much is plain old innumeracy -- and how much has to do with devotion to a particular political ideology.

    Either way, the rise of anti-intellectualism in the Orthodox world is a real cause for alarm -- and I think will turn out to be one of the defining "pivots" of our time.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "how much is due to lack of critical analysis skills"

      Anti-vaxxers demonstrate greater, excessive critical analysis skill. The entire pro-vax position (for a layperson) is one big appeal to authority, the opposite of critical analysis. Which is, of course, the whole point of this blog post.

      I happen to agree that we should trust authority in this matter over are own critical analysis, and that the anti-vaxxers are gravely and dangerously mistaken.

      But please, let's not flatter ourselves by pretending that this gigantic appeal to authority is some sort of exercise in critical thinking.

      Delete
    2. This is not a vaccine in the traditional sense. It's merely like a yearly flu shot which is only somewhat effective.

      Delete
    3. "Anti-vaxxers demonstrate greater, excessive critical analysis skill." That's the funniest thing I've read all day. They unquestioningly swallow the most absurd claims stated by other anti-vaxxers!

      Delete
    4. "That's the funniest thing I've read all day. They unquestioningly swallow the most absurd claims stated by other anti-vaxxers!"

      You might be right, some of the anti-vax comments here are just stupid, and demonstrate the opposite of critical thinking. But others, for example this one

      http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2021/08/lies-statistics-and-outrageous-lies.html?showComment=1629758382753#c2538344415962226953

      demonstrates much more critical thinking than most of the pro-vaxxer (laypeople) comments.

      There are studies showing that at least pre-covid, anti-vaxxers were more scientifically literate than the general population. Which fits with what I said, see here

      https://theconversation.com/vaccine-refusers-are-health-literate-and-believe-theyre-pro-science-but-this-just-reinforces-their-view-144068

      I want to reiterate, we should definitely trust authority in this matter over are own critical analysis, and the anti-vaxxers are gravely and dangerously mistaken.

      Delete
    5. That last article is very interesting. But it shows that there is no connection between reading a lot of stuff, and having the ability to critically evaluate things honestly and knowledgeably.
      If someone says, "Hey, melacha means work, it's not work to switch on a light-bulb on Shabbos, it should be allowed!" then are they demonstrating critical thinking, or stupidity?

      Delete
    6. @Happygolucky:

      Greater critical analysis skill is meaningless if those exercising it can't tell that they're applying that skill to garbage (the cherry-picked studies and fraudulent "data" that form the backbone of the anti-vax movement).

      Pro-vax positions are actually based on studies and data, which are out there for anyone to look at. You can follow the authors' reasoning and make up your own mind about whether their conclusions are justified. It doesn't mean that conclusions and recommendations won't change over time, but at least there'll be actual studies behind it. As the saying goes, "in G-d we trust, all others must bring data".

      It brings to mind the meme that is going around: vaccine research is people in labs or hospitals, growing cultures, taking blood samples, analyzing data, following patients, documenting their findings. Anti-vax "research" is someone sitting in the beis ha-kisei scrolling through the latest stupidity posted on Bitchute by their favourite ideologue.

      I only see the appeal to authority on one side here.

      Delete
    7. Joe, you are conflating laypeople with experts. Most people are not "taking blood samples, analyzing data, following patients, documenting their findings." And most people don't have the skills to review a scientific paper of the aforementioned research, and determine that it was done correctly. They must rely on the expert authorities. It's not critical thinking, it's just a matter of trust. Which is a good thing! We ought to trust doctors and scientists! Just like we trust engineers, accountants, and lawyers!

      "If someone says, "Hey, melacha means work, it's not work to switch on a light-bulb on Shabbos, it should be allowed!" then are they demonstrating critical thinking, or stupidity?"

      This is actually a great example. We only know that turning on a light switch is assur because of our trust in the Torah authorities. Somebody who doesn't buy into those authorities, who reads the Bible critically, will almost certainly conclude that melacha doesn't mean light switches. And will think the very idea is ridiculous.

      Delete
  24. Dr Kobi Haviv, Herzog Hospital, Jerusalem: “95% of the severe patients are vaccinated”. “85-90% of the hospitalizations are in fully vaccinated people.” “The effectiveness of the vaccine is waning/fading out”

    https://www.coronaheadsup.com/coronavirus/israel-85-90-of-the-hospitalizations-are-in-fully-vaccinated-people/

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. And therefore...? What do you think that this shows?

      (I'm thinking that your comment shows that you either haven't read my post or haven't understood it.)

      Delete
    2. Also, why do you think that it's actually true?

      Delete
    3. Elsewhere on the Internet, Dr. Haviv is quoted as strongly encouraging vaccination to boost rates in Israel, including outreach to eligible schoolchildren and their families.

      Perhaps you've misunderstood his statement from the 20-sec clip you posted?

      Delete
    4. RNS, just admit that you were wrong and retract. Be a man.
      https://americanfaith.com/vaxxed-make-up-85-90-of-the-hospitalizations-from-covid-infection-in-israel-dr-kobi-haviv/

      Delete
    5. And therefore this shows, IMHO, that you cannot trust MSM, unfortunately. I am hearing all the time that it is unvaccinated that spreading the virus, mostly unvaccinated are in hospitals, esp. serious cases.

      You don't see a list of doctors against the vaccine because: (1) they are immediately blocked in FB, YT, Twitter, Instagram, etc; (2) they are fired from their jobs if they try to go against 'party line'. Here is a good video describing this: https://odysee.com/@Alternative-News:c/Dr-Simone-Gold-America-Frontline-Doctors:0

      Here is Dr. Mike Yeadon, former Phizer VP: https://www.bitchute.com/video/cEIKCULoyRx4/

      Here is Professor Sucharit Bhakdi explains how immune system works, and how this vaccine messes it up: https://www.bitchute.com/video/oafQ0ODjcGtl/

      Here, DAVID LV BAUER - PROGRAM DIRECTOR ADMITS INJECTION DESTROYS IMMUNE SYSTEM: https://www.bitchute.com/video/KTEu8yra6wvn/

      Here, Dr. Zelenko speaks to Israeli rabbinical court: https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/311630

      And the bottom line: after reading/watching all of these, am I crazy to take this shot to risk my health or even life to protect myself against... something almost common cold/flu, that could be easily treated at home with Ivermectine?

      Anyway... hope this helps.

      Delete
    6. Yes, you are crazy to be trusting these videos.

      Delete
    7. RNS, scary when the liberal narrative you've been sold on, crumbles before your very eyes, isn't it...

      Delete
  25. Why is the blog illustrated with a lady in minimal sleeves?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That's Jenny McCarthy, an actress and well known anti-vaxxer.

      Delete
    2. Abraham,
      She’s wearing minimal sleeves because that’s what normal people wear in the summertime or in areas with higher temperatures.
      Obviously you aren’t normal.

      Delete
    3. Does halacha permit looking at immodestly dressed women?

      Delete
  26. 1. Have you given serious thought as to why a large portion of people who seem to have been previously and continue to be fine with other vaccines, are suddenly skeptical about this vaccine?
    2. Even if you think there are good reasons for the law granting legal immunity to vaccine manufacturers, vaccine skepticism in general is understandable simply due to this fact, whether correct or incorrect.
    3. A couple of intelligent people you spoke to who can't fully justify their argument to you, is not evidence that their underlying position is incorrect.
    4. Contrary to your assertion in the comments, Robert Malone was indeed the inventor of mRNA technology, and there are articles from decades ago that back this up. A Wikipedia entry asserting without evidence that "most credit the vaccine" to others, is not a sufficient source, especially since they were happy to give him credit before he started questioning the safety of the vaccine: https://web.archive.org/web/20210614140319/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_vaccine
    5. It is well documented that numerous vaccines that have been rushed to market have had terrible adverse effects, such that they had to be recalled. In some cases, the adverse effects weren't discovered until years or decades later. If you would have applied the same dismissive/derisive attitude and appeal to authority logic back then as you do now, you would have looked foolish in retrospect. It demonstrates an anti-scientific outlook and a lack of humility on your part. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/concerns-history.html
    6. This anti-scientific and arrogant outlook is unfortunately the pervading culture of our times. It is pervasive in our media, government, and now the medical field, and it manifests itself in censorship, shaming, and ruined careers and reputations of people expressing alternate opinions. You can't smugly point to a lack of voices, when you yourself seem to be part of a culture that mocks opposing views, and directly discourages or censors open conversation between experts.
    7. That Israel, which is among the highest vaccinated countries in the world, has more cases now than it had this same time/season last year before vaccination, as well as more than the neighboring and mostly unvaccinated Palestinian territories, raises a red flag about the efficacy of the vaccine. Anyone who looks down at others for observing this is being disingenuous, and only serves to further support point 6.
    8. The VAERS data does demonstrate a causal effect between these vaccines and adverse events. That's why most deaths and hospitalizations are reported 0-2 days from vaccination, and taper off from there. This is just one of several indicators pointing to causality.
    9. That you have much to say about the importance of putting your trust in authorities regarding things like vaccine efficacy and safety, and absolutely nothing to say about authorities implementing vaccine passports and the related creeping tyranny around the world, speaks volumes either about your values, or your ability to make basic observations.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The CDC link you posted actually undermines your argument. Did you read it?

      Delete
    2. Joe Q - It would be more efficient for you to just explain how it undermines my argument instead of hiding behind sarcasm.

      Delete
    3. Sure, I'll do that.

      1. The list at the CDC link mentions nothing about vaccines that have been rushed to market. It says nothing about vaccine development timelines.

      2. Most of the adverse effects in that list that were suspected to be related to vaccines turned out not to be.

      3. With the exception of the 1950s Cutter vaccine, the issues listed were not "terrible adverse effects", but either increases in risk for already known conditions, or product recalls due to manufacturing issues (usually out of an abundance of caution). This happens from time to time with all medical products.

      4. Where potential vaccine-linked adverse effects were noted, they didn't happen "decades later", but quite early on. As an example, the issues with RotaShield were identified within months of approval. They were so rare that they hadn't been identified in trials with many thousands of participants. It's wrong to insinuate that people developed side effects years later.

      Delete
    4. 1. If adverse events were not caused by rushed vaccines, that only bolsters the argument to not make quick, derisive judgments about anyone who challenges the COVID vaccine, which was rushed to market. In any case, the 1976 swine flu vaccine was a rushed vaccination campaign - Ford ordered mass vaccination and had 45 million people vaccinated, despite the fact that there was never a pandemic. https://www.history.com/news/swine-flu-rush-vaccine-election-year-1976.

      2. And some were.


      3 & 4. The connection between the 1976 swine flu vaccine and GBS wasn't officially acknowledged until 2003. Polio vaccines were contaminated with SV40 for years before they were discovered. And not mentioned in the CDC link is the hypothesized cause of the AIDS pandemic to the SV40 in polio vaccines given in Equatorial Africa. AIDS was not a pandemic until decades later: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7935079/.
      Also not on the list, in 2016, there was a rushed campaign to inject 1 million children with the first dengue fever vaccine. The experts at the WHO recommended the dengue vaccine, despite known concerns, and hundreds of children ended up dead, amongst other consequences. The campaign ended a year and a half later: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/05/03/719037789/botched-vaccine-launch-has-deadly-repercussions.

      My argument was that deriding others for their views and appealing to authority to justify that attitude, is anti-scientific, arrogant, and historically ignorant. My point stands.

      Delete
  27. The solution to an irrational reliance on cults of personality isn't a replacement irrational reliance on another cult. Trust the evidence not the Doctors (or Rabbis or even Rabbi Doctors).

    ReplyDelete
  28. "Contrary to your assertion in the comments, Robert Malone was indeed the inventor of mRNA technology"

    THE "inventor"? That's an exaggeration. A better term would be "pioneer" or "visionary". The light bulb didn't have one single inventor. And even Jenner was preceded by cruder forms of smallpox inoculation.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Arbutus is suing Moderna for use of its lipid nanoparticle technology without a license agreement, and nowhere mentioned in this lawsuit is the name Robert Malone and nowhere included are any of his patents. Saying he "invented the technology" is a joke. He patented (with others) one aspect of this technology/concept in its infancy when scientists raced to experiment with this and to build IP walls around it for a future of lucrative products built out of it (as happens with all areas of science). He did not produce a marketed product or a final form of this technology that made it widely applicable to humans as it is today. He is not among the patents that serve as the IP protection of today's products.
      He really really really wants a participation trophy though. (Or perhaps what he really misses out on is the money).

      Delete
  29. I have bad news for people worried about DNA alterations: viruses alter DNA! We have in our DNA countless alterations from ancient viruses.
    In fact, getting vaccinated is a good way to keep your DNA safe from coronavirus.

    ReplyDelete

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