Thursday, May 27, 2021

There's No Daas Torah In Italy

Before the latest Gaza war, Israel suffered a tragedy which killed nearly seven times as many Jews: the Meron disaster. It was the worst civilian tragedy in history of the State (and perhaps the largest number of Jews killed by Jews in a non-military setting in our entire history). As is widely known, it was a tragedy that was waiting to happen, since the site was not at all set up to safely house such a large number of people.

Naturally, a disaster at this scale indicates gross negligence at numerous potential levels - site managers, police, civil servants, politicians, and so on, and perhaps involving greed and corruption. And so the natural course of action is to arrest a lot of people and then have a state commission of inquiry which will be independent of any political pressures. When the terrible cable car tragedy occurred in Italy this week, several people were immediately arrested.

But not in Israel!

Not a single person has been arrested so far. And while there will be a state commission of inquiry, it's only just barely going ahead. Because, astonishingly, the vote at the Knesset Arrangements Committee to establish such a commission only barely passed, at 19 in favor and 13 against!

Who on earth would be against such a thing? Well, it will come as no surprise to discover that it was charedi MKs, along with their supporters in Likud and the ultra-right wing Religious Zionist party. As noted in a previous post, there was a shocking report about a meeting of United Torah Judaism MKs, in which most of them actively opposed a state commission of inquiry. Some of them claimed that they feared "reformers" would get involved and harm the sanctity of Meron (the exact trivial fears which allegedly motivated them to fight the government takeover to begin with). Others were astonishingly honest in their reasons for opposing such an inquiry. Uri Maklev explained that "there are people we know who will be harmed by it, people in the Ministry for Religious Services, people responsible for the event at Meron."

What's interesting is the charedi MKs, who are presented as emissaries of the Daas Torah of the Gedolim, are out of step with the charedi street. Surveys show that the majority of charedim want a state commission of inquiry. On charedi websites, while some are opposing a state commission, there is no shortage of people blasting the MKs transparent efforts to avoid responsibility (see the comments on the article at this link). And most of the bereaved families appealed for a state commission of inquiry - though, appallingly, they were pressured by associates of charedi MKs to retract this appeal.  

One wit had a sharp comment: The charedi MKs have declared a state commission to be a chillul Hashem, because it will decrease the number of people who are yet to die al kiddush Hashem. He was referring to how a commission, which will expose corrupt charedi management of such things, will make it less likely for such tragedies to occur in the future. But I would add that it will also decrease the number of people who already died al kiddush Hashem - because it will expose that they died not due to the inscrutable Hand of God in a mysterious martyrdom, but rather due to the incompetence, corruption and greed of various powerful players in the charedi community, all under the banner of Daas Torah.


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44 comments:

  1. Don't worry, based on everything you have written about this, there's no point in a commission of inquiry. We already know who is to blame.

    It's.......Rabbi Dessler, or course! Along with all the charedi Gedolim and Roshei Yeshivos of this generation and past generations! After all, you said numerous times that it's really the entire charedi ideology that is responsible, and the only way to prevent disasters like this is to reform the entire ideology. So what's the point of a commission of inquiry?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. happy - Don't be overly simplistic. It's not as simple that it's all the charedi Gedolim's fault. It never is. The truth is always more complex. You should know that.

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    2. Shmuel, you should have addressed that comment to Rabbi Slifkin. Preferably in one of his previous posts.

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    3. Acknowledging the role of ideology in the disaster isn't a call for total reform. It's sad that we sometimes learn the hard way, but we are capable of change while keeping our values. Thank G-d.

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    4. Anon, I would tend to agree, but that is not what I am addressing. Here is someone who wrote, just a few days after the tragedy "It is indeed challenging for someone to accept that their entire religious sub-community has an utterly wrong-headed and dangerous approach to religion and reality."

      According to him, there is no place for "change while keeping values", the values of the entire community are "utterly wrong-headed and dangerous". The only change possible is to completely reform the values. Thus, no need for an inquiry at all.

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    5. happy who wrote: "It is indeed challenging for someone to accept that their entire religious sub-community has an utterly wrong-headed and dangerous approach to religion and reality."?

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    6. Shmuel, http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2021/05/the-truth-becomes-clear-but-who-will.html

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    7. I don't know if you're aware, but Rav Dessler is not alive (and certainly wouldn't condone what they're doing if he were)

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  2. Well maybe they'll stop voting for these bags of dirt. But I guess I'm being optimistic. Kind of like the people who live in Sderot complaining about how the government doesn't protect them and then voting en masse for Likud.

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  3. Thank you for this essay. I agree with it. As bad and shocking as the rockets were, more Jews died in the Meron disaster.

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  4. There certainly isn't any Daas Torah among chilonim! If we want to be honest let's talk apples to apples.

    Abortion is murder. It means vacuuming out live, breathing babies that never did a thing wrong. Breathing babies!

    About 20,000 abortions take place a year in the State of Israel. Where is the outcry? Why are the Zionists so passive about this genocide?

    Oh, and most cases of baby killing aren't because of danger to the mother. The most common reason to kill the baby is because the woman is unmarried.

    How many babies are murdered because of such gross selfishness? How many take place in the Israeli army...? Very sad.

    Murder is alive and well in the State of Israel. The political entity that is the State of Israel has enormous blood on its hands.



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    1. @Ezra
      And so therefore what? We don't need or want an inquiry into Meron because of all the abortions? Great logic !?!?!

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    2. I am not saying there shouldn't be an inquiry. I am saying that if you drag Daas Torah into this, then its clear as day that the people who are suffering the most from lack of Daas Torah relating to murder are the chilonom, to the tune of 20,000 deaths yearly! If they kept the Torah, there would be far far less baby murders in the army and in the State.

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    3. Well, maybe if religious Jews set a better example, more people would be religious.

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    4. Very poor answer.

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    5. @Ezra,

      I really don't think you should be commenting about abortion if you think fetuses breath.

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    6. Avi,

      The mother's placenta helps the baby "breathe" while in the womb. Oxygen flows in and carbon dioxide out through the placenta. This is what is meant by a fetus breathing, and it accomplishes the same thing as any human who breathes albeit through a difference process.

      A fetus also eats. It doesn't eat like you do, but it requires the same sustenance. The process may be different but essentially it is eating and breathing all the same.

      A baby in the womb is alive.

      People who practice abortion are wicked, selfish criminals.

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    7. What a disgusting comparison. I thought based on your last post you might be some crazy left-wing anti-Zionist, but now I'm thinking you're some crazy Neturei Kartanik. Same difference, I guess.

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    8. @Ezra I agree with you that abortion is wrong. The US also kills babies but this does not justifies their extermination. Israel does not have blood in its hands. Hamas does.

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    9. @Ezra, I agree. Judaism only permits abortion if it is a danger to the mother's heath. But once the head comes out its life counts like any other. Other than that, abortion is murder. Have you seen the new film roe vs wade?

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    10. I'm neither. Are you content with calling the comparison disgusting without the slightest explanation? That's not very intelligent.

      The wilful slaying of living souls goes on unabated in the lovely State of Israel. They have so much blood on their hands it's terrifying.

      And it's not a one time thing. And it's not unintentional.its willful murder.

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    11. @Ezra, I agree but Israel does not have blood on its hands. Hamas does. Trump wanted to ban abortion. Israel needs a Trump who will make abortion illegal, as it should be.

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  5. I understand the post, but not the title. What does this have to do with Italy?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Because the Italians are arresting people immediately, without tortuous theological explanations

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    2. You're right--the article doesn't mention the connection. In the cable car accident in Italy, which resulted in the deaths of 14 people, three people were arrested:
      https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57252289
      Prosecutors are carrying out an investigation into suspected involuntary homicide and negligence.

      Rabbi Slifkin is pointing out that the people to blame for the accident were immediately identified and will be prosecuted. While in Israel, there hasn't been a commission of inquiry yet to assess who was at fault for the Meron disaster.

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    3. @Mike S.
      Because in Italy, the persons responsible are already in jail. And here, we're still having discussions (maybe).

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  6. Lock up Deri and throw away the key

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  7. How about the difference being that in Italy it is the authorities going after a couple of private citizens who committed a crime, just as they do in Israel when a private citizens commit a crime. Whereas in Israel its a battle among the political leaders where each acts in their own best interests. Same as what's happening right now in the USA about whether to open a probe into the Jan riots.

    But you wouldn't see the difference would you!

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    Replies
    1. Nachum,

      I know, right! What's a couple million in damage and a dead cop?

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    2. You mean a dead veteran, surely.

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  8. I don't understand how this is just a Chareidi issue, if the Religious Zionists, which Slifkin affiliates with, also walked out.

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    Replies
    1. It's a particular extreme branch of Religious Zionism. Not mainstream.

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    2. Given that they received 6 seats I think they are more mainstream than we'd like to admit....

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    3. Six seats is 5% of the population- less, actually. And they got a lot of charedi votes, especially Chabad, and a lot of Likudniks who were told to prop them up, and a lot of people voting on security issues, and, finally, they have a strong component, the "Kav" people, who have a real inferiority complex vis a vis the charedim.

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    4. The point is, these people have no connection to the Chareidi Gedolim. So, why would they walk out?

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  9. Deri: Convicted of bribery & fraud. Three-year jail sentence. Gets re-elected. I just don't get how folks knowingly vote for a criminal, but I'm in the USA and we did the same four years ago in electing a lifelong criminal, fraudster and overall loathsome individual to the highest office.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think you mean less than a year ago...

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    2. @whatever,

      You apparently aren't thinking at all. Don't watch Prager YT videos; they rot the mind.

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  10. https://www.israelhayom.com/opinions/the-prosecutions-indifference-is-shocking/

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  11. There's no need for a commission etc.
    We all know exactly what the solution is, what the commission is going to recommend.
    Demolish the entire area, except 4-8 feet from the actual kevarim tombs, make some type of stadium structure, some concessions for chai Rotel, etc. And all done.
    Of course, that means the existing amutot nonprofits and hekdesh trustees (all dating back to Ottoman times; maybe deputize the rabbanut in Istanbul to decide; frankly, they're smarter than get involved) will lose out. Maybe buy them out, or don't buy them out, that's a political decision.
    Shabbat Shalom

    ReplyDelete
  12. Indeed, how come police commander who ordered closure of the exits and the cops who refused to open them in spike of screaming of trapped people, are still walking free?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Because they are protected by the Reptilian Overlords in league with Bill Gates.

      Delete

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