Sunday, August 23, 2020

Pigs In Shtreimels II

Four years ago, there was the notorious rally in the Jerusalem Arena for Beis Yaakov girls. The purpose of the rally was to dissuade them from attending any of the numerous academic higher education programs for charedim that have sprung up in recent years. Rav Baruch Shapira introduced the program by relating a conversation that he had with Rav Steinman about the event. Rav Steinman said, "Charedi academic programs?! It's like a pig in a shtreimel!" (See my post about the event, which summarizes the messages from the speakers.)

Well, now there is a new campaign against the pigs in shtreimels. A prominent Rosh Yeshivah, Rav Yigal Rosen, declared that he has launched an initiative in his yeshivah, which he hopes will be emulated by others. If a student marries a girl who is enrolled in a charedi academic program, then neither the rabbis nor the students are allowed to attend the wedding.

As I wrote in my previous post on this topic, it is indeed true that once a person steps out of the daled amos of the yeshivah or Beis Yaakov, they are exposed to all kinds of influences and ideas that run contrary to charedi and Torah values. But on the other hand, im ein kemach, ein Torah. We have to earn money, work, and build up society. If charedim are going to radically diverge from tradition by sending everyone to kollel, then the women have to shoulder the workload of both partners (while also giving birth and raising children). And it's just not possible for charedi society to accomplish that if the women only attend Beis Yaakov. It will just accelerate how charedi society is trying to lead itself, and ultimately all Israel, to economic ruin


  1. What has the attendance of these various institutions looked like in the past four years? Has enrollment grown or declined?

    People vote with their feet.

    1. Enrollment has grown dramatically in all sorts of programs for beis yaakov and yeshiva students. These rabbis are making there demonstrations and pronouncements because they are losing the battle

  2. I'm Hasidic, but I see no way out of this long term terminal threat to the state.

    The cultures as is are too different to neatly integrate.

    One is inward facing, which asks for outward modesty and humility, with all the work developing inside, with a very strong connection and attachment to the group and it's values - a sense of tribe, an identity that is formed by the community, an artistic/spiritual sense of reality, with a rich heritage of inner world development, not valuing exact outward measurements and facts, to the point of shunning 'experts' for that matter, ambiguity toward materialism and wealth in wake of higher fulfilling values. And responsibility toward our own entire ritualistic religious order - including those recent communal codes. Just to name a few.

    The other is the Western model which is fundamentally based on the individual conquering his outward journey, it's based on personal actionable responsibility. And there's no one looking out for you, each man on his own. Even if you're working in a big company it's each man for himself based on personal competence and assertiveness. In addition, Cold hard facts are what is valued, not inner feelings. And the meaningful, inner spiritual world direction is lost. The unique valuable perspective is lost. Sure, there are films and art with individual meaningful perspectives, but it's too diverse and fleeting to grasp on to.

    Being able to juggle both is for the talented few. Most fail. No wonder one has resistance to the other.

    Currently the charedi population is at 12%. With a projected 50% in 30 years, due to compounding birth rates, while the secular population experiences a birth decline. What happens then?? Add 20 years and they're an entire majority...

    1. It's easy to "win" an argument when you're the one defining the terms. For example, it might surprise you to know that the non-charedi world values "tribe" and "community" just as much as yours. Except their "tribe" and "community" is, well, the country as a whole, and the Jewish people as a whole. Indeed, by that metric they may meet your standards even *more* than yours. And the same is true of much else on your list.

      Predicting the future is a fool's errand. But it should be pointed out that charedi birthrates are falling, while secular birthrates are quite high, relative to the rest of the Western world. And that doesn't take into account charedi dropouts etc.

    2. @Nachum

      The very fact that you can consider the entire country as a whole or community your 'tribe', means that to you this is an intellectual idea or concept. To us this is way more tribal and local. Hence why most are judgmental and even prejudice.

      You're confusing the tight sociological/religious experience with an overall different ideological idea.

      I'd recommend you watch some of the videos coming out of Sadigur where grown men are clapping around a young boy newly crowned "rebbe". This doesn't come from an intellectual idea. This comes from a vibrant tribal experience. Perhaps you should research what tribal living really is, or better yet live in the bnei barak community for some time and observe, you'll see.

      If you do one thing outside of the norm, Yentl the neighbor will be speaking to the next neighbor which will be speaking to the next neighbor, and at night when you meet for a kiddish you'll have it brought to your attention " how come you've done this and " This is not an intellectual exercise This is daily living. It's hard to explain these things.

      To a certain extent your status in the community is based on who you do shiddichum with. Almost every aspect of life is different. Again these are not intellectual concepts these are lived experiences that are meaningful to them. You can ignore it all, but then you'll be missing reality.

      You're right that modern Orthodox has somewhat similar concepts on a different scale, but those are not the same experience.

  3. "And it's just not possible for charedi society to accomplish that if the women only attend Beis Yaakov. It will just accelerate how charedi society is trying to lead itself, and ultimately all Israel, to economic ruin."

    Here we go again with the doomsday predictions and the "ticking time bomb" of the untenable Chareidi system.
    You and other critics have been predicting this "economic ruin" for over a decade now and it hasn't happened yet.
    To be credible, can you provide a time limit for this catastrophic economic ruin (for "all Israel" mind you) to occur, after which you will realize you are just wrong?
    Or will you just keep making this prediction in perpetuity--never citing actual statistics showing that Chareidim are bringing ruin the entire Israeli economy/security situation etc.?

    1. My rabbi said that while charedi men can wear what they want, women are told to dress in an ugly fashion. Consider the burqa haredi sect. Do we want the free modern State of Israel to turn into Islamic Shari’a law!?

    2. So let's try an experiment: The State of Israel, tomorrow, cuts all support to charedi institutions, all special welfare rules tailored to charedim, etc. How long would they then last?

    3. "You crazy kooks have been warning of a global pandemic forever now, and it just never happens. We haven't seen such a thing since 1917, and we are never going to see one again. All the gain of function experimentation, the many examples of leaks of infectious disease outbreaks from biosafety labs, and the wet markets where wild animals that harbor dangerous infections interact with humans and have their blood and guts strewn about in unsanitary conditions, are all not going to ever contribute to a new global pandemic. You just exaggerate the risks."

    4. Have we been lied to?
      For years, we were told the Chareidi community of Israel is desperately dependant on tzeddah.
      For about 6 months, Meshulachim have been unable to do their usual rounds. Reports from virtually every charity are that donations have come to a standstill.
      Has there been some incredible surge in government support?
      Is there some other explanation for the survival of this community?
      Or, maybe it was all just a ruse from the start.

    5. The reason that Israel has not had a Charedi-induced economic failure is because of all the work, most of it private, that has gone into staving it off. The founder of the tech startup I work for, for example, is heavily-invested in Charedi tech education. He made his money selling off a previous company, and he puts that money towards helping Charedim train to enter hi-tech.

    6. Turk Hill, WADR, is your rabbi blind? Charedi men (at least in most groups) dress with MUCH more conformity than the women.

    7. 6 months is a relatively short time, but there are indicators that the Haredi community are hurting more than ever. Have you actually measured the levels of poverty among Haredim prior to,as well as during the COVID pandemic? I think you might find that the statistics show an increasing level of poverty. I say that because we are seeing a major rise in the total unemployment among the non-Haredi sector, and this sector have larger money reserves to live on (i.e. savings, homes etc). Bituach Leumi can testify to the increased numbers of people who are now receiving unemployment benefits. And if the Meshluchim havn't been going around where is the money coming from? Doubtful from outside of Israel as donors from outside are hurting. From the government? Maybe there is somewhat of an increase in help as there is for non-Haredim but it isn't meeting the need. From increased employment? Doubtful as most Haredi men do not have the backgrounds to get good paying jobs. So if all of the traditional sources as well as all of the non-traditional sources have dried up, I would suspect logically that the Haredim are hurting. They might not be falling over the edge as a society but I would suggest that based on logic and statistics that many more individuals are now falling off the edge. (And by the way one other indicator that you might look at is birth rate. The last time there was an economic crisis and traditional economic sources of money dried up, the Haredi birth rate did drop, a bit). So again, the Haredim shouldn't be smug; tbis is no ruse and the economic situation is getting worse. They have no special power which is saving them. The entire country is suffering and the Haredim DO have few resources to save themsleves.

    8. Charities are a small part of it.

    9. Huh?
      What do any of these responses have to do with what I wrote?

    10. Chareidi girls were originally restricted to the teaching profession. Now they work as nurses, secretaries and bookkeepers while hobnobbing with men from morning until night, something that was once unacceptable. When times push hard enough, college will also become kosher.

    11. Eh, Turk, chareidi men can't wear what they want either. Of course, by the time they finish yeshiva, how many of them WANT to wear a colored shirt or denim pants?

    12. Chareidi higher education for women *is* one of the rational adjustments made by Chareidim in order to adjust to economic realities. This Rabbi appears to be attempting to fight that reality.

    13. dlz and Yosef R, My rabbi was referring to the Charedi burqa sect. Unfortunately, they took these practices and ideas from Islam and Islamic Shari’a laws, which is alien to Judaism.

    14. @Avraham

      It's so interesting how in the frummest parts of Borough Park and Williamsburg, girls & women are spending 35+ hours each week mingling with men, and impressing men...(most of whom experience such a weird thrill, since for their crucial 25 years prior they had no interaction with girls....)

      Yet this whole system was done in the name of 'tradition', 'kedusha' and 'ehrlichkeit'. It's so scary how we, the ones living it, are ignorant of what's going on.

    15. @dovid kornreich There are 2 underlying concerns when it comes to this topic: practical economic sustainability and Frustration at Charedi indifference/ lack of participation. While the former is more significant, the latter is what irks most folks. Most of the frustrated folk like Slifkin express their dismay via the former while truly being upset about the latter.

      This gets me to my main point: Even if your right about the economics (you're not), don't pretend like it was tailored as such by Charedi leaders. At best, the financial catastrophe will be avoided by sheer miscalculation. Everyone knows Charedim have no sense of citizenship and have no issue running the country into ruin. The latter concern can't be evaded.(the same is true of military participation more or less.)

    16. @Big Mouth what you call "miscalculation", the chareidim will call "siyata di'shmaya" or "hashgachas haborei". I think you're absolutely correct that the second concern is really what bothers most people.

    17. @Big Mouth
      Thank you for trying to address my comment.
      I appreciate that you are articulating the emotional subtext but it hard to argue with emotions, so I would rather keep to substance.

      You say I am not right about the economics. But you must agree that the Israeli economy is not currently on the verge of ruin because of the Chareidim! (I hope you don't believe that COVID19 = Chareidim.)

      So I repeat:
      You can argue that it makes all the sense in the world that Chareidi system *should* eventually bring the country to economic ruin, but at some point, for credibility's sake, you need to offer a time table for this to happen. Either make the prediction falsifiable or shut up.
      Otherwise, it is no different than saying "The chareidim are our misfortune" as someone already pointed out below in the comments.

    18. @happygoluckypersonage understood, but it's BS. Kornreich's defense is faulty EVEN if hes right about the economics. My point is that there never is a calulation regardless because they don't care. Kornreich is pretending like they have it all figured out and preempted Slifkin's concerns. "Siyata deshmaya" and "hashgacha" are ad-hoc defenses used for PR purposes and Kornreich knows it.

    19. @dovid Kornreich you didn't address the point i made. The economics are just a symptom of the larger issue which you know is real. Even if youre right about the economics, IF you were wrong the charedim would still carry on as they do. Stop pretending like charedim would theoretically care about the rest of the country. The underlying tayna is there: why is Charedi society selfish and irresponsible?

    20. @Dovid Kornreich:

      Here's your timeline:

      Here's another detailed take:

      So it'll take from 30 to 40 years to be the majority group in Israel. Add another decade to and there then majority of the country. This is fatal. You can't run a country with (at best) plumbers and electricians you need serious trained manpower to keep up infrastructure etc.

    21. @ Moish
      Thank you for responding with substance.
      The links say the doomsday scenario comes about when Chareidim become the majority group in Israel AND they still behave exactly as they behave now--tribal and fighting for religious self-preservation to the exclusion of all other civic and economic considerations.
      But I don't think this is likely to happen because much of why Chareidim behave they way they behave now vis-a-vis the rest of Israeli society is because *they feel* the majority wants them to integrate into it and thereby lose their identity.
      Once Chareidim become the majority and their existence is no longer under threat of secularism, of course things will dramatically change.
      No more threat of drafting yeshivah bachurim, no more battles for Shabbos, no more secular social policies from the government, no more secular politicians demonizing Chareidim and poisoning the mind of the public.
      It would be a different world on many levels.
      There is no way of knowing in advance how this will change the Chareidi mindset vis-a-vis the rest of the country.

      I would hope things would shift to what Chareidi society looks like in the U.S.--less extremist, more pragmatic and economically responsible. But you can't tell me it is likely that nothing would change for the better once Chareidim don't feel existentially threatened.
      This is why the doomsday scenario is seriously flawed.

      I know Big Mouth will no doubt respond to whatever I write will all kinds of childish put-downs and name-calling, but that's because unfortunately his mind is made up and he is unwilling to think logically.

    22. @Dovid Kornreich

      You actually bring some interesting points to the table, however that's just one theory that reduces their entire position to one variable. One out of many.

      One might say the opposite, the same way they dealt with the previous so-called threats, by withdrawing within, they might do the same in the future with other threat forms. For instance, even without a majority that's nagging them to secularize, the fact that they will have to take responsibility for the entire country will necessitate them valuing college work, advanced degrees and modern sophisticated development (Not to mention taking up the whole military defense thing.) That in itself is seenby them as an existential threat. E.g. As in the entire world is only sustained by Torah Not by best scientific methods etc. They have no mesorah how to deal with science v religion, democracy/courts/elections vs beis din systems, preparing young adults for advanced college degrees versus learning Torah etc etc.

      On the contrary, the past 100 years have given them an opposite tradition. Yet they will somehow totally reinvent themselves?? All this within 30 years?? And in a current atmosphere where their fundamentalism is ever increasing?? I find that highly unlikely.

      However on the other hand the concrete numbers are clear. The charedi world's birth rate increasing, with a very low attrition rate (see the link), while the secular world is going through a birth rate crisis.

      It's much more speculative to say that they will change and reinvent themselves in some future situation based on a single theory, rather than being concerned and seeing the numbers for what they are. Based on today's reality. A very frightening future.

      Can some rely on a miracle? Maybe. But it's certainly not rational.

      Being concerned is the only rational perspective.

      P.s. the American charedi system would collapse if they were majority and responsible for the American state. They deal mostly in low education required sales, and peripheral markets based off of mainstream industry (i.e. some retail and basic real estate etc.)

      There aren't many doctors, scientists, entrepreneurs who invent new products (not just new versions of simple old things), research academics that provide a pipeline for new inventions, engineers, architects (though there are a few for small residential projects) to name a few.

    23. @Kornreich your cheshbon is rediculous. As Charedim become the majority they will suddenly become more moderate...and i i should assume this why???

    24. @Moish "There aren't many doctors, scientists, entrepreneurs..." And in the general non-jewish American public, how many of these are there per capita??? I would bet the same as charedim, or less! (According to Pew, charedim in the US have higher % bachelors degrees than the general public, and the same % post-graduate degrees). And doctors??? There are certainly more chareidi doctors per capita than the general public, one need only open the Lakewood phone book, where doctors are far more than 1% of entries.

      Either way, it's kind of silly to claim that the American chareidim system is unsustainable, on the basis that they gravitate towards certain professions. Why shouldn't they gravitate towards those professions that enable them to support themselves at a significantly higher level than the general population?

    25. Even if charedi society would evolve upon becoming a majority, the problem is the time lag. It takes at least one generation to create societal change, probably more. By that time, the country is already ruined.

    26. Have to say I agree with Kornreich on this. If Chareidim are such a dire economic threat in the next 30 years, as you guys claim, they will definitely feel it the most. And they will adapt. How could it be otherwise? If there's no bread in the house, the father will go to work, whether he likes it or not. And the bread doesn't run out suddenly, it runs out gradually in the next thirty years (at least) giving them plenty of time to prepare.

      "All this within 30 years?" ..."Even if charedi society would evolve upon becoming a majority, the problem is the time lag. It takes at least one generation to create societal change"

      This is silly talk. Societal change can happen much faster than 30 years or even a decade. Witness how societies across the world completely reinvented themselves in the space of the last few months.

    27. " If there's no bread in the house, the father will go to work, whether he likes it or not."
      Um, no. He'll find himself unable to find work because he is unqualified. And he'll end up stealing or begging or trying to game the system. And we shouldn't use the future tense. This has already been happening as poverty levels continue to rise.

    28. @Reb Gili, actually no. There won't be any bread to steal, beg, or game if the economic collapse predictions of the doomsayers are true. Charedim will be the majority of the society and the only system that can support them will be their own. And according to these worst doomsday predictions, they have at least 30 years to figure it out.

    29. The doomsday scenario left out other factors as well.
      1. The secular government --before it looses majority rule--might pull the same stunt it pulled in the 90's to augment its majority position in the population.
      The Jewish Agency opened Israel to mass immigration from the FSU after the Communist regime collapsed and we had an influx of well-educated secular people become Israeli citizens. And it was scandalous at the time because it was obvious that didn't matter to the Jewish Agency if the Russian immigrants were Jewish or not.
      I can imagine this happening again when the North Korean regime collapses and there is a massive drive for North Koreans to emigrate.
      2. A variation of the above: It could be that when Chareidim become the majority and they need a highly skilled working class, they can decide to import them from a number of Asian countries by giving major incentives to people who qualify.
      3. Don't forget that for ideological reasons, the Dati-Leumi population isn't going to leave Israel when Chareidim become the majority. They are just as highly skilled as their secular counterparts, and they will be in an excellent position to take over all the key jobs needed for the economy and defense left vacant by the secular Israelis who emigrate.

      So the moderation of the Chareidim isn't the only factor that will be key in avoiding the doomsday scenario.

      As Nachum said in an earlier thread, trying to nail down the long-term future of 30-40 years from now is a fool's errand.

    30. I agree with happy go lucky that if they become the majority they may be forced into work. I don't agree with Kornreich that a minority of secular Jews will result in a national "chill out" movement of charedim like a bochur in beIN hazmanim.

    31. You finally present some solutions to a problem which was feared mentioning until now. Some progress. However, some of these are wild fantasies.

      1, Unlike mixed Russian Jews, North Koreans are not Jewish at all. Israel will under no circumstances except them as citizens point blank, on a massive scale. Again all this hoping that the regime will collapse first.

      2, yeah the idea of having some farm workers and talent is obvious, question is who pays for it.

      It takes a really which country to be able to pay foreign workers en mass. Something like Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates. They are massively rich from oil, so they can afford to pay foreign workers, foreign talent etc. We're not on the same position. Not even close. Our economy is based on other things.

      In short, how do we pay for all that?

      And imagine having a massive Asian population in the country, what that will do to the character and identity to this country.

      3. True the Daati Leumi won't leave for ideological reasons, but they have a much higher attrition rate (those leaving the fold) than charedi (see link), and their birth rates are dropping as well, as they are more closer to a secular lifestyle.

      More importantly, right now they are fully attributing to the country. Imagine them having to do everything, from medical advancements, to running the healthcare system, to all defense development and upkeep, and industrial markets. Country would collapse. There's simply not enough of them, compared to the entire population. Sadly this will be the reality, but it won't be a pretty picture.

      This reminds me of India, historically had a major population that was religious and not in the mindset of materialistic development, and a minority really working hard to modernize. They barely scraped along for 100 years. Now when most of them are becoming secular, the country has a bright future. Sad but Israel would be the reverse.

      (A materialistically Strong Israel without its spiritual side isn't much better. But that's a different point.)

      Seeing an upcoming future disaster, based on a current situation is not a fool's errand. A fool would be one who ignores the tide flooding inland. We're not talking future speculation of a certain stock commodity in 30 years.

    32. A number of points:
      1) You underestimate the lengths the secular establishment will go to in order to maintain power and prevent the country from becoming a theocracy.
      2) If an oppressive regime suddenly collapses, there will likely be chaos and mayhem making the population desperate to find anywhere safe. All Israel has to do is open their borders to provide a safe haven --they won't need to give much back in return in terms of high-end salaries.
      2) I think you are over-estimating the sudden nature of the collapse you are predicting. The jobs you are describing which need filling aren't massive in terms of numbers. You are talking about an elite cadre of innovators and administrators in a few vital fields. The Dati-Leumi elite can surely hold the line until Chareidim can catch up.
      3) I forgot to mention that the female half of the Chareidi population are already quite highly educated in mathematics and computers right now--relative to the national average. They have proven to be great managers and administrators as well. It will not take nearly as much time as you predict for them to step into the void left by a secular migration.

      4) And finally,
      Your own analogy refutes your argument. We aren't ignoring the tide flooding inland--there simply isn't any detectable tide to speak of right now.
      Remember: Chareidim have maintained this way of life--not contributing to the army and the economy proportionally to the rest of the population--for over thirty years now. As far as I can see, the current state of Israel's economy and defense is perfectly sound despite this decades-long reality.
      You PREDICT that after 30-40 years, the Chareidi population become the majority, and suddenly the situation will rapidly deteriorate to the point of complete collapse.
      Well, until we even start to see some deterioration, I'm afraid it is a little premature for Rabbi Slifkin and others to pretend the sky is already falling and start blaming the chareidim now for the impending doom of 30-40 years from now.

  4. A wise rabbi once suggested to me that we consider not expending the efforts that we had been expending on behalf of a local institution which had what we perceived as significant flaws which we had been unsuccessful in getting addressed - the sooner it fails the sooner we can help rebuild it properly


  5. This is not the Orthodox Judaism that was prevalent in the USA when I was growing up and into adulthood.

    1. Thank Eliezer Shach for sending Judaism back for generations.

    2. I think all but the most the chareidi Chareideim in the US are still not as extreme in their rejection of the imperative to work to earn a living as the Chareidim in E"Y described by R' Slifkin. (Probably because the unsustainable social programs that disincentive their working are not as available/entrenched here in the US.)

      The irony is that mainstream right-wing, "black hat" folks in the US--most of whom work for a living--idealize and idolize (and, I would add, "idyllize") the Israeli Chareidi lifestyle of institutionalized poverty and send their children to yeshivahs that promote that self-destructive hashkafah.

    3. It isn't the fault of any one rabbi or movement within Ultra-Orthodox Judaism.
      I got my last job through the Kivun Center, which helps Charedi guys get vocational training and helps them with job placement. I have a university degree from חוץ לארץ, but it was still very difficult to find steady employment, with all of the competition. Kivun helped me, since it's quite different when they recommend an employee--it's no longer just another c.v. among dozens that are reviewed by the HR department of a company.
      In the Kivun office, there are quotes from all sorts of Charedi rabbis about how honorable it is to work, or תורה עם דרך ארץ.
      (I understand that the Israeli government gives a perk to the employer if they take a charedi employee. Even though it costs the government at first, hopefully they get the money back, since there is one more self-sufficient person out there.)

    4. my mother zll"hh once commented on the -idealize and idolize (and, I would add, "idyllize")- of the shtetel. She wondered whether these folks were aware of the grinding poverty her parents (and others of that generation) experienced before emigrating.

  6. Yigal Rosen is the brother of the late Yisrael Rosen. There's got to be a story there...


    2. Who is/was Yisrael Rosen?

  7. The point is economic control, which is arguably one of the most common forms of abuse against women across all of society. Yes you will get tzedakah from a fund controlled by a tzadik if you don't go to college. But you are now under his thumb. What do you think a tzadik with an 9 figure property portfolio does with the revenue but control peoples lives, sorry I mean tzedakah.

  8. A major stumbling block to Haredim working is the fact that they are not allowed to work by law unless they are drafted to the army first.Haredim will never go to any army. My father has told me that in Belgium where he grew up they were doing all sorts of tricks not to get drafted into the Belgium army. I don't believe this will ever change. I think the government should either give all Haredim a "Ptur" just like Orthodox women get based on their observance ( after all the army doesnt want or need the Haredim) or scrap the Drafting altogether and build a Professional army which will be voluntary. Haredim are working everywhere besides in Israel.

  9. רשעים ארורים -- these people think nothing of condemning their followers to poverty, exclusion and suffering, not to mention ignorance.

  10. I suspect there is also an element of "Shidduch Crisis" here. If his boys marry girls somewhat to the "left" that will make it harder for his communities girls to find Shidduchim.

    1. Or it'll be taboo to marry to the left & the girls to the right will be in higher demand.

  11. Its absolutely ridiculous, that women are continued to be repressed in this way. It is archaic and chauvinistic, and just an attempt to keep women under the control of men, psychologically and financially. Women themselves should rebel against these kind of restraints. If you realize it or not, you have to live in the real world, and actually one of the jewish people's purpose is to be a light unto the nations, serving as a role model.How can you do this if you are isolating yourself from the rest of society. It would do well for hasidic men as well to pursue higher education so they can make a living instead of depending on their wives to support them and their family for the rest of their lives.

    1. Well, to be [bizarrely] fair, it's not an uneven prohibition. Men aren't allowed to go to college either, right? Or am I understanding this incorrectly?

      Of course, there still IS the somewhat-chauvinist attitude of wanting the men to remain learning so that women earn money to support the family, but one can make the bizarre (again) argument that hey! in this new age, we are not bound by traditional gender roles of male breadwinner-ing, but I don't think that this is specifically the chareidi stance...

      On the separate issue of isolating vs being Ohr LaGoyim, that choice was made a long time ago.

  12. "Rosh Yeshivah, Rav Yigal Rosen, declared that he has launched an initiative in his yeshivah, which he hopes will be emulated by others. If a student marries a girl who is enrolled in a charedi academic program, then neither the rabbis nor the students are allowed to attend the wedding."

    That's odd, because RYR is actually fairly moderate when it comes to serving in the IDF. Maybe he just wants more men to start working? ;)

  13. This is the problem with the world, both sides are crazy. banning people from weddings! other side "... charedi society ..lead itself, and ultimately all Israel, to economic ruin" sound like nazi propaganda. BTW it is more the fault of socialist government than chareidim. if things are free some ppl wont work

  14. Maybe a more sensible approach would be to open up universities and other higher education institutions that cater for Chareidi girls? If it is only the environment that is problematic (mixed classes etc), then this would be a great way to open up opportunities for Chareidi women to have better and higher paying jobs. And in a post COVID world, the options of working from home are much greater so you can be highly educated, have a good paying job and still be a kol kvoda bas melech pnima. Giving people more opportunities seems to be a much better option than just outright banning and is also more likely to be taken up by the tzibbur rather than banning something and having that ban rejected as a fundamentalist approach.

    1. It is not only the environment that is problematic.
      Academic studies will be looking at all aspects of Jewish life --Jewish law, Jewish history, Jewish family and society, and Jewish institutions-- from a detached and distinctly secular lens. It is absolutely poisonous for a religious individual to immerse him or herself in that world-view and build a life-long career around it.

    2. "Academic studies will be looking at all aspects of Jewish life"
      Depends on which academic study. Do you really think these women are interested in academic Jewish studies in order to make a living? Do you think there's high demand for such scholars? From what I hear, there are too many graduates in Jewish studies & not enough positions.

      "It is absolutely poisonous for a religious individual"
      And not for an irreligious individual?
      Isn't "absolutely poisonous" hyperbole? Why not "potentially risky"?

    3. "Academic studies will be looking at all aspects of Jewish life"- This is not true. They're not teaching Kant or Nietzsche or gender studies in these programs. These are practical and vocational programs. They're teaching computer programming, accounting, nursing, etc. And chareidi women in the US have been doing similar things for many years, with widespread acceptance from their charedi leaders. Is a chareidi woman who is a nurse more "poisoned" than one who is a secretary in an office? Unless what you really mean is that the women should only work in klei kodesh, or not at all.

    4. @happygolucky Dovid Kornreich is a Charedi apologist. That means that he will rationalize that which was set forth with any real rationalization. Charedi leaders reject all and cry afoul and Kornreich does ad-hoc defense as if there was a cheshbon all along.

    5. @dovid Kornreich Complete horse-poo. In the US there are dozens of programs that are done off campus in a Jewish setting that are extremely practical and non academic. The FDU masters in accounting is attended by tons off yeshiva guys and is litteraly teaching numbers and percentages.

      Stop pretending that there is cheshbon and precise calculation in the Charedi leadership. It's all reactionary stuff with apologists like you pretending that it all made sense in the first place

    6. @happy:
      The vocational programs you speak of are already mostly available within the Beis Yaakov system. They are called "maslulim". They don't just teach child education anymore.

      Maslulim is one significant example of chareidim successfully adapting to changing economic realities while maintaining their identity and their values but no-one wants to give them credit for it. It will never be enough for them until there is full integration into mainstream Israeli society which means the end of the chareidi way of life.

      The objection by the Chareidi leadership is specifically against academic programs like sociology and the humanities/liberal arts. We are not just talking philosophy here. (even though it is included in the humanities as well).
      And no, "poisonous" is not hyperbole.

    7. DK,
      Rabbi Rosen spoke against academic programs. He did not make the distinction that you make. You made up the distinction.

      "It will never be enough for them". Maybe there are a few secularist radicals. But the average secular Israeli doesn't have that agenda- heck, why would they want to enforce an education on charedim that most secular Israelis don't have?

      The fact is that even a graduate degree can be achieved without taking any of those "poisonous" courses. קל וחומר an academic degree here in Israel in programs geared for Charedim.

      "And no, "poisonous" is not hyperbole."
      Even when it comes to quoting yourself, you make things up. You wrote "absolutely poisonous".

  15. My recommendation: to prohibit the yeshiva of Rabbi Yigal Rosen from accepting any kind of donation from anyone who attended any academic studies.
    That will solve this problem.

    1. YES!!
      Excellent suggestion!
      "put your money where your mouth is"

      All organizations should be required to do so too!

  16. a more correct description would be a pig in a Sheretz.....

  17. To paraphrase Mark Twain, reports of the Charedi economic demise are greatly exaggerated.

    I don't agree with Mr Kornreich on much but he is right here and if people stopped being so sectarian and dogmatic we might learn something important.

    1. forgive me but a community that relies on donations has already 'demised'. it just hasn't stopped moving yet.
      economically it was dead a long time ago, it's being artificially kept breathing.


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