Monday, July 20, 2020

Laughable Lunatics or Dangerous Inciters?

How should one respond to the crazy rantings of "Rabbis" Yosef Mizrachi and Yaron Reuven?

I've always thought that these two narcissistic clowns are nothing more than a great form of entertainment. Yosef Mizrachi, with his ridiculous theological claims about divine punishment, his messianic delusions about himself, and his conviction that any other rabbis who criticize him are the greatest enemies of the Jewish People. Yaron "Ron" Reuven, with his shady claims of having been a Wall Street superstar, fanatically obsessed with "wasting seed," and his preoccupation with suffering and punishment. What a pair of jokers!

Last week, the dynamic duo posted a video in which their hellfire accusations against myself and thirteen other rabbis (including Lord Rabbi Sacks and Chief Rabbi Mirvis) were set to a rousing cinematic score and a mixture of film clips from various apocalyptic Hollywood movies. I thought that it was hilarious! I loved it, and the first thing that I did was download it, in case it was ever removed. When, after a day, they removed it (evidently they got too much heat about it), I promptly re-uploaded it to YouTube myself! Their rantings against myself and my colleagues doesn't hurt us; it just discredits Mizrachi and Reuven, while providing the rest of us with great entertainment. (Alas, Yaron Reuven filed a complaint to YouTube and they deleted it. It's kind of odd that he protested my usage of his video of other people's videos!).

But I'm beginning to think that I am mistaken. These two jokers are no laughing matter.

First of all, while you can't believe their own absurd claims about having hundreds of thousands of followers, there clearly are a lot of people who are infatuated with them. This can be seen from the Facebook and YouTube comments on their posts, in which people gush over their teachings, and revel in the thought of how their critics will suffer terribly in this world and the next. This influence needs to be countered.

Second, Mizrachi and Reuven often not-so-subtly call for violence and even execution of "heretics." Now, I don't think that the two of them would ever actually act on it; Mizrachi wants to do nothing more than speak to his sniggering fans, and "Ron" Reuven already had one run-in with the law and is probably afraid of another one. But their groupies are a different matter.

Some of the most devoted followers of Mizrachi and Reuven are of poor character – crass people, hateful people, violent people. Mizrachi himself has boasted of criminals and murderers who are followers of his; he once laughingly described how he had a criminal devotee who wanted to actually murder one of his critics. Mizrachi says that he talked him out of it, but will these inciters of hatred always be able to put out the fires that they light?

In the notorious video shared previously, Reuven describes how the law of mesis mandates that someone who inspires another to worship idolatry must be put to death, and immediately follows that with a clip of Mizrachi denouncing fourteen rabbis as being such heretics; the implications are obvious. In another shocking shiur, when someone challenges the outrageous theological claims that Reuven makes, he replies to the audience that people who criticize the shiurim of rabbis such as himself are trying to spiritually murder us all, that they are worse than Hitler, that we pray for such people to die, and stresses that "if it was legal, I would kill him." It's not difficult to imagine that some of their more bloodthirsty members of the cult might actually decide to act on it. And in the longer run, the idea of Orthodox Judaism developing a violent, apocalyptic cult is troubling.

The third problem is that the warped theology that they publicize on YouTube can have devastating consequences for the Jewish People when it falls into the hands of antisemites. Mizrachi's notorious denial that six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust plays right into the hands of Holocaust deniers. Reuven is even worse - he has a truly sick video in which he claims that the Jews of Germany genuinely ruined the country with their financial greed and sexual perversions, which is why Hitler wanted to kill them. Needless to say, this video has been enthusiastically shared by endless antisemitic website, for whom it's a dream come true to have a bearded Orthodox rabbi state that Germany's hatred of Jews was justified.

It's time to take these clowns seriously as a threat to society. To that end, a number of people are working on a multi-pronged campaign, which you can help with.

First is the accumulation of evidence. Both Mizrachi and Reuven are constantly releasing videos of multi-hour shiurim, which are excruciating to watch, but we need people to scour them for incriminating statements. Such extracts can be used to discredit them, to get them banned from YouTube, and potentially to report them to the authorities for incitement to violence and even for antisemitism.

Second is to protest. In the last few days, protests were successful in getting the TorahAnytime website to remove Yaron Reuven's videos, but Yossi Mizrachi's videos are still there. You can write to info@torahanytime.com to complain. Meanwhile, Yaron Reuven's followers tout his being a member of the Rabbinical Alliance of America, so it would be a good idea to write to Rabbi@Igud.US and protest that. (It's a very right-wing group, so saying that he badmouths Rabbi Sacks etc. won't do anything, but they might be more receptive to complains about his inciting violence, enabling antisemites, and giving Orthodoxy a bad name.)

The third way to help is to try to limit their influence as much as possible. Mizrachi's CDs are given out all over the place. While many shuls and yeshivos won't host Mizrachi or Reuven as speakers, some still do. This has to be fought.

All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.

(If you'd like to subscribe to this blog via email, use the form on the right of the page, or send me an email and I will add you.) 

120 comments:

  1. Worth noting that only POLITE complaints to those email addresses are likely to be taken seriously.

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    1. "polite"? R. Slifkin has taken these rabbis OUT OF CONTEXT... again. Case in point, R. Mizrachi DID say only a million Jews died in the Shoah, but that's because he was claiming only a million to be halachically Jews. In other words, yes, 6 million did die, just that they weren't "technically" Jews. And guess what? When called out on the error, he apologized. When can you people ever accept that? Don't you make mistakes, or are you perfect, too?

      And come on, I doubt Judaism will ever get, like, real crazy. And I doubt the followers will actually kill anyone, too. Our average IQ is like 115. Believe me, there's no murderers in the ranks.

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    2. "And guess what? When called out on the error, he apologized.... When can you people ever accept that?"

      So did Mel Gibson.

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    3. :נצי"ב פתיחה לבראשית
      בחורבן בית שני,..היו צדיקים וחסידים ועמלי תורה, אך לא היו ישרים בהליכות עולמים. על כן, מפני שנאת חנם שבלבם זה אל זה, חשדו את מי שראו שנוהג שלא כדעתם ביראת ה' שהוא צדוקי ואפיקורס. ובאו על ידי זה לידי שפיכות דמים בדרך הפלגה, ולכל הרעות שבעולם, עד שחרב הבית.

      יומא כג: שקשה עליהם טהרת כלים יותר משפיכות דמים

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    4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_religious_terrorism

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    5. Yitz, genuine question: Are you one of Mizrahi's teenage students?

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    6. So your "doubt the followers will actually kill anyone" allows them to call for the death of these Rabbis that differ with them? Can you for one minute consider the horror that such calls raise amongst descent living non-Jews and the joy that our enemies get out of it?

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    7. Funny you should mention IQ.

      First of all, high IQ is no bar to insanity or murder. To take an extreme example, lots of top Nazis were very intelligent.

      Second, average Jewish IQ is quite high. The number is actually about 110, which is 10 points higher than the general average. But that's *average*, which of course means there are a lot of unintelligent Jews as well. And I hate to raise this, but that's average *Ashkenazi* IQ. Guess what end of the bell curve Mizrachi appeals to.

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    8. For some reason you, like, didn't reply.

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    9. It's become very fashionable to bad-mouth Rabbi Mizrachi, everyone follows like sheep. Please back up your comments with actual quotations to someone who has listened to almost his lectures over the last 11 years, not distorted snippets.

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  2. Regarding the comments about the Holocuaust, what Prof. Marc Shapiro writes about sefardim just not getting it, even Rav Ovadiah Yosef, rings true to me:

    > As I write this post, Yosef Mizrachi is in the news. It began with his unbelievably ignorant comments about the Holocaust and soon moved into other outrageous things he said, both about the Holocaust and in general.[20] Years ago I found another really offensive comment about the Holocaust, yet in this case the author was actually a well-known posek. In seeking to explain why the Holocaust occurred, R. Ovadiah Hadaya writes as follows, in words that sound like they could have been said by Mizrachi:

    > לפעמים יש הרבה ממזרים בישראל שלא ידועים ואז הקב”ה מוכרח למחותם וכדי שלא יתביישו משפחתם אז הקב”ה נותן רשות למשחית להרוג גם טובים עמהם בכדי שלא יורגשו מי הם הממזרים.

    > Just think about the implications of this statement. 6 million pure Jewish souls, including 1 million children, are destroyed, and R. Hadaya suggests this was done to get rid of the mamzerim. Furthermore, in order not to embarrass the families of the mamzerim all the rest had to be killed as well, as if the omnipotent God couldn’t come up with some other way to take care of this. I don’t think that this passage can even be called “theodicy”, as theodicy is the defense of God’s goodness and omnipotence in the face of evil. The theology of this passage, if accepted as true, would actually lead people to doubt God’s goodness and omnipotence.
    One day, not long after I found this passage, I was in the National Library of Israel reading room, and there, as usual, was Prof. David Weiss Halivni. I was very comfortable talking with him, but I wasn’t sure if I should tell him about what R. Hadaya said. I thought it might really unsettle him, seeing how a rabbi could give this explanation as to why all his loved ones were slaughtered in the most cruel way. In the end, I decided to share it with him. All Prof. Halivni said, and this is applicable to Mizrachi as well, is that when it comes to the Holocaust Sephardim simply don’t get it. What he meant was that not having the personal connection to the Holocaust, their discussions of it are without the emotional intensity one finds in the Ashkenazic world. In the Ashkenazic world, detached explanations of the sort offered by R. Hadaya and Mizrachi would be too offensive to even consider.

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    1. I 100 per cent agree with Prof. Marc Shapiro.

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    2. You attribute Mark Shapiro as addressing Rav Ovadia Yosef but the quoted text is about a different Rav Ovadia.

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    3. Hello Aryeh,

      While I am certainly apt to agree with you, I imagine that their approach will find cover in the Chumash. After all, we all just finished reading Bamidbar, and throughout this Chumsah there is a very similar continual question in regard to the large body count sustained by Bnei Yisrael that resulted from the many incidents of Yetzias Metzrayim and the Midbar experience. We are of course very, very removed from those times, and make due with similar detached explanations with similar sounding religious mechanics, but doesn't everyone wonder at some point or another whether the large amount of people killed over the course of these incidents is the really the most 'grown-up', mature way to deal with these problems? Doesn't it also seem somehow not very G-g like, and yet it forms with the rest of the Torah the basic background of Judaism's story?

      Maybe someone on this site has a way to explain why this is not a similar problem.

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    4. Rabbi Ovadiah Hadaya was a different person than Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef.
      Other than that error, the comment makes sense.

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    5. This is an old issue. Yes, ascribing tragedy to this or that cause sounds nuts, but that is, in fact, the Jewish way, and this approach has been in continuous use since Biblical times. You dont think people in Jeremiah's time also thought he was nuts for ascribing geo-political events to religious causes?

      The Sfardi/Askenazi thing is irrelevant, as even Ashkenazim themselves offered similar rationales for similar national tragedies down through the centuries. Its actually insulting, as it suggests that Sfardim are incapable of appreciating the grief of others, even that of their own brothers and sisters, merely because it didn't happen to them. Would the Professor have said the same about Sighet, that men there don't have the emotional depth to appreciate tragedy unless it happens in Sighet itself?? It's a creative defense for a classic Jewish approach that doesn't need a defense.

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    6. 100% agree with you, except for the part about sefardi rabbis. I remember hearing about rediculous statements made by Avigdor Miller (an Ashkenazi) assigning blame for the Holocaust on some of its victims (sorry, I don't remember the exact statements) and my dad explaining to me that it's very curious that only rabbis that didn't suffer in the camps and gettos are trying to find meaning in the Holocaust

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  3. Wow Hashems warming up the fire for the author of this Motzi Shem Ra post on 2 jews who were Mekarev thousands of people. I don't think and fireproof uniform will be of any help.

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    1. Being Mekarev Jews is not a license to speak sheker, to help neo-nazis, to inaccurately besmirch other Jews in history and in the present, nor to present a false vision of Judaism. Nor to incite violence.

      So what exactly is your point in saying they were mekarev thousands of people?

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    2. @studentv Exactly! Being mekariv people does not make you a tzadik. Scaring people into being religious certainly does not make you one either!

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    3. Whether the "thousands" claim is true, mekarev them to what? To a stupid and untrue version of Judaism?

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    4. 1. Not Motzi Shem Ra - it's all entirely true
      2. Not Mekarev
      3. Not thousands - maybe dozens at best.

      Other than that, entirely correct!

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    5. Mizrahi's antics have been widely reported in the Jewish world. It's quite likely that for all the people he has been mekarev, he has been "merahek" an equal or greater number.

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    1. Psychopaths? Come on, they've done so much kiruv work. Watch the Purpose of Life video by Rav Mizrachi, that's real Judaism. No this Aristotle nonsense. If you people try to get R. Mizrachi and R. Yaaron Reuven banned on YouTube/TorahAnytime.com, we, his followers, will fight back. We simply won't allow it. Why? Because these two are take out of context. People are just jealous of their success.

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    2. What success? Rabbi Slifkin is actually a widely known and published authority.
      Why would he be jealous of clowns on social media?

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    3. Being mikarwv Jews to the wrong kind of Judiasm isn't kiruv. Just because someone does something good, that doesn't negate the bad. There are cults that being people closer to GD but sexually abuse them in the process. Is the justification that the abuse is going on, ok because they are bringing people closer to GD? Being mikarev people with lies and with the concept to idolize them ( which in and of itself is against the Torah), is not true kiruv.

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    4. What exactly are they lying about? Rav Reuven always give the source when moving on or explaining wbat he is saying.. All he is saying is to stop sinning and be closer to Hashem.. We have to stop pretending like We have been doing things right. We are still in exile! That means there is alot of fixing to do!

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    5. Correct Snl - what's more, to make such Jews hate spewers as they are? Who needs such Judaism? Which us why these rabbis should be banned by the Beth Din. What are they doing about it?

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  5. I agree with everything the rabbi wrote. I think that both Mizrachi and Reuven are cult leaders who enjoy using scare tactics and fear-mongering to advance their agenda or narrative. The denial of the Holocaust feeds straight into the hands of antisemites. Their fanaticism resembles that of Christian fundamentalists, and the rude behavior of these clowns is disparaging to Judaism. Everyone plz write to the sites recommended by the rabbi to remove their clowns from authentic Judaism.

    Thank you, Rabbi Slifkin for this excellent recommendation.

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    1. I find it interesting that your mascot/avatar is Maimonides.
      I don't like these rabbis (Mizrachi/Reuven), but can you respond to this: There is the 'enlightened', lenient, loving, hip, inclusive, non-dogmatic 'modern' side of the Sages, and then there is the other -- 'Mizrachi/Reuven' -- side of them-- often from the same Sages who said such 'enlightened' things. I can include the respected rabbis after the Sages too in this.
      Concerning Maimonides. He comes to mind as one who anathematized those who didn't do certain deeds or hold certain dogmas.

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  6. "Reuven is even worse - he has a truly sick video in which he claims that the Jews of Germany genuinely ruined the country with their financial greed and sexual perversions, which is why Hitler wanted to kill them. "

    I had no idea about this. (Actually I had never heard of this financial fraudster clown at all or his being associated with R Mizrahi until your posts).
    What a despicable moron this guy is. And he has the audacity to accuse other people of being "worse than Hitler y"s?"

    By giving them material they directly use to proselytize and recruit new followers, Reuven is fueling the movements that adore and celebrate Hitler and wish to repeat Hitler's crimes against us.

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    1. Nonsense. They do more work for the Jewish people than R. Slifkin's "rational" Greek (pagan) views.

      We only have a few options here: (1) the Charedim are right and we shouldn't view Torah she'biktav as a joke; (2) Rambam and Aristotle were right, hence, the G-d of Torah is for children. The true G-d is more of an Unmoved Mover; (3) there is nothing anyway and death is the end.

      If there's any hope that the first premise is right, then you must listen to the rabbis. They say that sins aren't always forgiven (as per the Gemara in conjunction with Shelosh-'Esreh Middot HaRakhamim).

      Be careful which G-d who worship.

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    2. yitz,
      please don't lump rambam with aristotle. rambam disagreed with aristotle on many key points and certainly believed in a "moved mover", ie that g-d responds to prayers and is involved in hashgacha pratis. it was a later invention by various apikorsim such as spinoza and the academics who followed in his path, that rambam accepted aristotle uncritically.

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    3. A Yid with problems with rov sacksJuly 21, 2020 at 6:31 AM

      "we shouldn't view Torah she'biktav as a joke" no one says we should.

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    4. Wait, Rambam wasn't a rabbi in the Mizrahist theology? That's a new one. Go try that line with some "charedim" and see how they react.

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    5. As for the rest of your comment, there are many rabbis whom I listen to, and Yaron Reuven and Rabbi Mizrahi are not among them. They don't get a din of infallibility by virtue of being rabbis. It seems that you'd be surprised, that some charedi rabbis laugh at some of the stuff they say. It's not just non-charedi rabbis and Jews who think they speak some nonsense.

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    6. Yitz, making an artificially short list of "only x options" is a Christian missionary tactic (look up "liar, lunatic, or lord"). Making a strawman argument is unwelcome. So is dumbing down the opposition's argument.

      But more to the point, in what way is following these two men making Torah She'bichtav not a joke? It sounds like from the way they speak, much of Bein Adam LaChaveiro gets turned into a joke.

      I didn't realize that Rambam and Aristotle said the same things, nor did I realize that the two of them oppose Mizrachi. Thanks for clarifying that.

      Anyway anyway, what's up with jumping up and waving the protecting chareidim flag? This post was about stopping a few people who seem to be crazy, not - as other postings are - about endemic problems with chareidi worldview or problems with things ascribed to "the Gedolim." Why tie one to the other?

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  7. Yitz. Who is Mizrachi to decide who was halachacially jewish? The only person who can make a "din and cheshbon" is GD. Hitler didn't differentiate. Quite frankly who cares? They were people have in tzelem elokim and we're killed. Plus that's the only thing you can quote out of the all the horrible things that he has said? Who is he to decide why people are sick? Who is he to incite evil on others? You have no idea what mental health issues some people might have and decide to actually take him for his word and murder someone, then what will be your excuse? Oh, he apologized, and he'll find a way to justify it . Do you know how many murderers have murdered over the years because they idolized someone and then followed that someone's "command" to murder? You are living in a delusional mind set.
    Ps. As seen by whom you follow,we all can tell what the average IQ in the group is.

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    1. True, only HaShem. On the other hand if you mother's not Jewish... you get the point. This is what R. Mizrachi was suggesting, of course. In fact, he says so in the video, and later apologized.

      As for sickness/evil, so me a link where he says those things. Then, show me the entire video, IN CONTEXT.

      Saying that he promotes murder, or that he'd dare entice someone to do it, is just outright ridiculous.

      The rabbi is a holy man.

      P.S., want to compare IQ scores? We all know they're many successful Haredim. Case in point, the founders of B&H.

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    2. Look, I too don't agree with everything R. Mizrachi says. For instance, the one time there was an earthquake in Nepal, and he said those "idol worshipers" deserved it. I disagree.

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    3. What about the time when he advised his followers to aim hairdryers into their mouths and throats until the pain becomes excessive -- as a means to prevent COVID infection?

      From what I can see online, this is what he is best known for outside the Orthodox world.

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    4. Yitz,

      Those idol worshipers in Nepal DID deserve it. There I've said the indisputable. That makes me holier and more authoritative than you, Reuven and Mizrachi.
      Now you and your cohorts prepare to follow me. I got a good deal on some property in Jonestown, Guyana. And don't worry. This time it'll be only bottled Gatorade.

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    5. Haha, okay guys. Like I said, I don't agree with everything the Rabbi says, but I don't appreciate those who take him out of context. After all, he's just trying to teach Torah.

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  8. Mizrachi does not have smicha, he is a fraud thru and thru! Mizrachi discussed his Semikhah (rabbinical ordination) credentials in a January 9, 2016 radio interview with Zev Brenner. When asked if he has Semikhah, Mizrachi stated that he lacks such Semikhah which involves testing and is common among Synagogue rabbis. However, Mizrachi explained that he has received certification in recognition of his Torah background by Rabbi Eliyahu Ben Haim qualifying him to be a rabbi.[2]
    [2] Mizrachi, Yosef (2016-01-09). "Talkline with Zev Brenner with Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi on Holocaust Denial" (Radio interview, online audio. Remarks beginning 59:54 minutes into the interview). Interviewed by Zev Brenner. Talkline Communications. Retrieved 2017-02-26. ZB: And what do you have Smicha from? YM: So here is the point now, now when I learn in Yeshiva, for many years in Yeshiva, I don't have the kind of Smicha to be a rabbi in the Young Israel synagogues that in order for you to get it you need to go and bring certain documents that they tested you on such and such things. But when I started to learn in Yeshivot, and I learn- taught 10 years Gemara in Yeshiva, I got a certificate after they saw my knowledge that I have more than 10 big rabbis including the Av Beit Din signed on it that not only I'm a rabbi I'm a very big one and I'm—. ZB: Which Av Beis Din, what's the name. YM: Rav Eliyahu ben Chaim.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosef_Mizrachi

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    1. I agree. Mizrachi is not a real rabbi at all.

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    2. That is completely immaterial

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    3. Not to people who are impressed by arguments from authority...

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    4. Anyway, if you have to tell people "not only I'm a rabbi I'm a very big one" then that says something, right? Like that guy at the table who says "No, wait! I'm really very funny!"

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  9. Exactly. Success isn’t measured by how many followers or money you have.. Not one of those “rabbis” have any proof of their success in “kiruv”.. You can clearly see in multiple videos that Rav Mizrachi’s kiruv work is a success.. So please stop talking and start fact checking because your not fooling anyone but yourself

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    1. Define "success". ISIS also did a masterful job in garnering zealous recruits.

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    2. The results may not be measureable in the short term. But it is more likely that bringing people to Torah will result in more people following Torah than bringing people to "rationalism" (whatever the heck that is) will bring generations of followers to Rational Torah (whatever the heck that is)

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    3. You are simply contradicting yourself. You correctly claim "Success isn’t measured by how many followers you have". Then you proceed to prove Mizrachi and Reuven's success by their Kiruv results. What is the use of bringing Jews to the Faith but then teaching them a hateful and death declaring Faith?

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    4. @Chaim X

      The issue here is you've presented only one side of the equation.

      Mizrahi's comments on the Holocaust, "re-incarnation", and his ridiculous "medical advice" about burning one's throat with a hair-dryer were very widely publicized and mocked in the Jewish world.

      It's quite possible that he has brought many people to Torah, but his antics have painted Orthodoxy in a negative light elsewhere in the Jewish world, and have quite likely distanced an equal or greater number of people from Torah.

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  10. https://thechesedfund.com/D8dynD/hatzalas-nafashos-save-the-kinderlach






    I am raising money to help several dozen elementary school-aged children of R. Yosef Mizrachi's followers with transferring from Public Schools to yeshivos for the 2021-2022/תשפ״ב school year.

    Many of these children, whose families belong to the Bucharian shuls in Queens,

    come from lower-income homes,

    while others come from non-religious families whom are unwilling to pay full tuition.

    By supporting this cause, you are enabling these boys and girls to be immersed in environments which teach Torah Lishma in accordance to the curriculum standards of Daas Torah!



    תזכו למצוות!

    Ari Rosman



    Rabbinical Endorsements:

    Rabbi Abraham Cooper, Simon Wiesenthal Center

    Rabbi Avi Shafran, Agudath Israel of America

    Rabbi Avrohom Gordimer, Coalition for Jewish Values & Orthodox Union

    Rabbi Bentzion Klatzko, Shabbat.com

    Rabbi Reuven Mulladzhanov, Beth Gavriel Bukharian Center of Queens

    Rabbi Shmuel Skaist, Yeshiva of Newark

    Rabbi Yaakov Kirschenbaum, Chabad of Washington Heights

    Rabbi Yisroel Reisman, Agudah Shul of Madison & Yeshiva Torah Vodaas

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  11. This is just part of the free speech on the internet debate. I would say a better approach would be to debate and disprove, the "Rabbis" points someone should start making videos showing clip by clip, where the "rabbi" is wrong. I don't think that should be really hard to do. A debate would be better, not sure any of these "Rabbis" would be willing to debate. The problem with many channels on YouTube is that there is very little dialogue from very different view points, so a lot of confirmation bias. "Rabbi" in quotes as not sure if someone with a YouTube channel and saying his Jewish thoughts can automatically really be considered a Rabbi.

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  12. 'Reuven is even worse - he has a truly sick video in which he claims that the Jews of Germany genuinely ruined the country with their financial greed and sexual perversions, which is why Hitler wanted to kill them.' This is what Hitler claims in Mein Kampf. Rabbi Rabinowitz in his דעת סופרים מנחמיה ועד עתה seconds this claim. He lived during that period and reports on what he had seen with his own eyes in Poland and in Eastern Europe. I find it unfortunate that the Jewish people are incapable of introspection. We think that we are God's greatest gift to humanity and are completely unaware of the havoc we often cause in the countries of our residence. It's not something to harangue about on the internet to give more ammunition to the anti-semites, but it's something we needed to acknowledge, but we never did. It was true then and it's true today. Incidentally, the second or the third fascist international, I just don't remember which one, had discussed the destructive influence of the Jews in the world and, while acknowledging it, refused to condemn the Jewish nation as a whole.

    Yakov

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    1. "We think that we are G-d's greatest gift to humanity and are completely unaware of the havoc we often cause in the countries of our residence."

      What? Where did we cause havoc? Nazi Germany? 

      Could you site a source or an example where Jews "destroyed" a country? In the interim, I'll name you some European counties that have been completely ruined by Arabs. Sweden. Italy. Germany. Greece. Shall I continue? 

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    2. In most countries where the Ashkenazi Jews lived, we were seen as a problem. Listen to what these nations are saying and see if you have a substantive rebuttal. There are historical and evolutionary reasons for this problem, but it cannot be swept under the carpet. Don't deflect by bringing in the Arabs - they aren't the subject of
      the discussion here. One example for you is the Russian revolution and the political activity of the Jews in the Russian Empire. Read the aforementioned דעת סופרים. A few months ago the 'Jewish organizations' succeeded in Amazon banning the sale of 'Mein Kampf'. If you want to understand our history and the Holocaust, you should read it. An internet discussion is not the place for me to elaborate on this subject, but just remember the verse יהללך זר ולא פיך...

      Also, in general the stereotypes are not very far from the truth. This alone should make you stop and think. I know it's shocking to think that there is truth to the words of our enemies, but unless you approach them with an open mind, you will continue walking in the darkness.

      Obviously the anti-semitic propaganda is full of lies, but the historical grievances of the host nations have a foundation in reality - then and now.

      Again, I'm not looking for an acrimonious back and forth here.

      Yakov

      Delete
    3. Right, you're not looking for a back and forth, you're just looking to propagandize.

      Delete
    4. So let's not be acrimonious.
      Let's just face the facts. The fact is that you claimed that Jews "create havoc" wherever they go. This is so backward it isn't funny. Jews were INVITED to some countries during the Middle Ages because they were recognized to be an economic boon to the local country - see Poland after the Spanish Expulsion - and then 100-200 years later, after they become successful, the populace gets jealous and persecutes them.

      You think that the Bolsheviks were mostly Jews? And that they were the majority of Jews? Really?

      Look at Spain - one of the dominant if not the dominant political force in the 1400's - after the Jews were expelled, Spain declined, not prospered. Sure it took a bit, and their chapter was closed by England in 1588, but Spain was never perceived the same way again.

      I'm glad you point out that that "obviously antisemetic propaganda is full of lies" but you seem to parrot it comfortably enough...

      On the small issue of Jewish self-introspection: we no longer have the gadlus / nevuah / comfort to be able to say why tragedies happen. Chazal could say why the Beis HaMikdash was destroyed, but we cannot say why tragedies happen today.

      Especially not in a way that repeats Nazi claims. AND EVEN if you REALLY THINK THAT (I have never heard that prewar Germany was a hotbed of sexual licentiousness, but whatevs) in today's world, don't be recorded when you talk about it!

      Delete
    5. I wrote 'acrymonius back and forth'. There is nothing to 'propogandaize'. If you don't want to hear why our host nations have issues with our behaviour, we don't have a common ground for discussion. And if having gone through life thus far you had never realized that there is a problem with us and we are not טלית שכולה תכל, it will take time to study the subject any ti overcome many preconcieved notions.

      My grandfather, among THOUSANDS of Jewish volunteers, had fought for the Spanish Republic for two years and was highly decorated. I'm not aware of any Jews that fought on the nationalist side. Having grown up with the lore of that struggle, it took me years of study, in my spare time obviously, to understand that period and to realize what disaster the Republic was. A lot of paintful material needs to be covered, not many will ever do it.

      מִי עִוֵּר כִּי אִם עַבְדִּי וְחֵרֵשׁ כְּמַלְאָכִי אֶשְׁלָח מִי עִוֵּר כִּמְשֻׁלָּם וְעִוֵּר כְּעֶבֶד יְהוָה

      Yakov.

      Delete
    6. I agree with Yosef entirely. My grandfather used to say that after Spain expelled the Jews, Spain never recovered. I think your arguments ridiculous. You are directly feeding into the hands of antisemites and telling them what they want to hear. I bet you believe in the blood libels too.

      Delete
    7. @ Yosef R

      We don't need a prophet to engage in national self-introspection. Many nations of the world have acknowledged their unfair treatment of the Jews. Some have instituted their own law of return for their former Jewish citizens.

      The fact that the Jews were and still are highly valued for their intellect and other outstanding abilities doesn't contradict the fact that there is a problem.

      After the revolution there were 3 Jews, Lenin and Stalin in the Politburo. The Jews are that proverbial שיעור שבעיסה, but examine the direction that the fermentation takes and it's not in for the benefit of national population. Again, there are historical and evolutionary reasons why it is so, bit itsa problem.

      The best approach would be to change the direction for the future and not dwell on the past, but as long as we are brought up believing that the whole world had been created for our benefit, things are not likely to change.

      In Mein Kampf Hitlerbwrites that he had not met one nationalist pro-Forma Jewish journalist or newspaper. That is not technically true because there were some, but they were negligible in number. I'm not defending the madman, just pointing the true facts that were apparent at the time and this couldn't have ended well. Look at the Western world today, what do you see? ודי למבין.

      Yakov

      Delete
    8. @Yakov

      "In most countries where the Ashkenazi Jews lived, we were seen as a problem."

      The root of that problem was that we are "the other", and the presence of "the other" is always fertile breeding ground for fanatics and extremists.

      To posit "Jewish behaviour" in Germany / E. Europe as the cause of the Shoah requires one to ignore many centuries of German / E. European attitudes towards "the other".

      Delete
    9. @Yakov

      You seem to enjoy quoting Mein Kampf for whatever reasons. Yes, we Jews are not perfect and we are not biologically superior or immune to criticism or self-introspection. Additionally, Rambam writes that the world was not solely created for humans or Jews or whatever. But to support the sick claims of the antisemites and to justify the evil acts of Europeans or to quote Mein Kampf like gospel is getting old. Who's side are you on exactly, anyway?

      Delete
    10. @ Joe Q.

      This is true, but read the words of the Bulgarian king, an ethnic German himself, addressed to Hitler and explaining why in Bulgarua the Jews are not considered 'the other' in 'Beyond Hitler's Grasp: The Heroic Rescue of Bulgaria's Jews' bu Michael Bar-Zohar.

      Yakov

      Delete
    11. To be fair, Hitler also claimed that he "became" an anti-Semite when he saw a Chassidic Jew in Vienna and became convinced that Jews would never assimilate as they should. So I guess you can never win with him- you're either too assimilated or not assimilated enough.

      Of course, Hitler was probably lying. He was raised an anti-Semite from birth. But if Charedim are going to blame modern Jews for the Holocaust, they should be a bit more careful, because it can be turned on them.

      Of course, there *were* many Jews at the top of the various Communist and socialist revolutions and plots of the 1920's, and there were many Jews involved in all the crazy sexual things going on in Weimar Germany. Of course these were a tiny subset both of Jews as a whole and the revolutionaries as a whole, but of course the Jews stood out or at least were blamed. Haters are going to hate, but Jews should bear that in mind.

      Delete
    12. Anyone remember the piece about Israel that was attributed (incorrectly) to Dennis Miller? In it, the author renames the Palestinians (since there is no country called Palestine) as "adjacent Jew-haters." He talks about how angering Arabs triggers violence. Jews on the other hand, will only "talk you to death."

      I will concede to Yakov Anonymous: No, we are not perfect. Jews - particularly more religious ones - tend to be arrogant and feel superior to those around us even as we (in the post-Civil Rights era certainly, but perhaps in the days of when we were personally protected by the king) lobby for special protection. But on balance the benefit a country has from having Jews far outweighs the "trouble" we cause.

      You have drunk the Kool-Aid, my friend, but in this case it was bitter, moldy, pickle juice.

      (This in no way is to denigrate pickles.)

      Delete
  13. As far as 'spilling of the seed' is concerned, a scientific explanation of this biological function of the organism is long overdue. Breslov is marketed as the only way to get a portion in the Olam Haba on account of this transgression. I'm waiting for גדולים וטובים ממני to finally bring rationality into this rather simle subject.

    Yakov

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. What exactly do you want them to do?

      Delete
    2. I wouldn't want to speak in their place and whatever I say wont make any difference anyway.

      Yakov

      Delete
  14. Yeah, and what's the Slifkin answer - Torah is a hodge-podge of texts, and the ancient stuff is because people were all superstitious, and the rabbis did (at best) the best they could, and miracles didn't really happen but people thought they did, and ... you get the point. Really winner there for the marketing to people, right? People who are suffering in the world are really going to want to sign up for that rational stuff.



    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Uh. Not inciting violence and promoting extreme ideas is a start.

      Delete
    2. BDA, totally agree! These "rationalists" aren't really rational. No one ever is. People like to claim they're "rational," but they're just more "irrational."

      Yes, when they say that Torah She'Biktav is a hodge-podge, and that it basically lied about its authorship, why believe it regarding anything? For example, Shabbat? It all breaks down, and those worshiping the god of Rambam (his theology, I don't mind his code) are separating themselves from HaShem. R. Mizrachi is right.

      Delete
    3. @BDA And what's the alternative to rationalism? Relying on miracles. The Talmud says not to rely on miracles.

      Delete
    4. I'm not sure what this "Oh yeah?"-ism is all about.

      The two people that are called out are not in direct opposition to RNS's thinkings. These two are people he recognizes to be dangerous, and not that he disagrees with them.

      "Yeah, and what's the Slifkin answer" - um, what's the question? This post isn't "Mizrachi misunderstands dinosaurs and here's why" but rather he seems to believe that Rabbi Jonathan Sacks is a dangerous individual and should be killed. Or something close to that. You are arguing apples and land mines!

      Delete
    5. Yid with problems with rov sacksJuly 21, 2020 at 6:40 PM

      @Yitz "when they say that Torah She'Biktav is a hodge-podge, and that it basically lied about its authorship, why believe it regarding anything?" Only YCT says this. Slifkin doesn't.

      Delete
    6. Turk Hill creates a strawman irrational argument in:

      @BDA And what's the alternative to rationalism? Relying on miracles. The Talmud says not to rely on miracles. "

      No. Even Slifkin goes through example after example where the most rightwing charedi doesn't really RELY on miracles. Very few people do. People go to doctors, etc. They call it "hishtadlus". They TALK about miracles, but I have yet to meet someone who just sits in a cave and prays for the birds to bring them antibiotics. False argument.

      Delete
    7. Yes, Turk made an overstatement, but Yitz's came first, kinda out of nowhere.

      Delete
  15. A worthwhile point in a different direction -- when is the best treatment to simply ignore it? E.g. the *Ma'aneh LeIgeres* -- Rav Moshe Feinstein told his students not to respond as that would only give it more publicity; nobody wanted to buy the book; and stores therefore stopped selling it.

    I realize it may be different with the ease of spreading stuff on the Internet today (and being in English); and the horse may be too far out of the barn -- but IMHO this is an important point to consider.

    Rabbi Slifkin -- in a counterfactual history where your books were met with a "meh" from the big-name rabbis ... what do you think would have played out from there? I honestly don't know, and would like to hear your take on it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The books did play out with Meh from anyone with a brain.

      Delete
  16. "Meanwhile, Yaron Reuven's followers tout his being a member of the Rabbinical Alliance of America, so it would be a good idea to write to Rabbi@Igud.US and protest that. (It's a very right-wing group, so saying that he badmouths Rabbi Sacks etc. won't do anything, but they might be more receptive to complains about his inciting violence, enabling antisemites, and giving Orthodoxy a bad name.)"

    Igud-RAA is mostly a scam (outside the Beth Din). They put out many press releases, Mendy Mirocznik, who works for a judge, Rabbi Klass, who works for his family business The Jewish Press, and so on, but in reality there is not much there beyond that media facade.

    Duvid Katz, Igud director, has tried to raise money online with twitter. R. Yaron Reuven recenty allegedly donated the largest amount to the campaign, $1,000 (https://www.gofundme.com/f/take-a-stand-with-rabbinical-alliance-org).

    They try to convince people through twitter (https://twitter.com/igudof) that they are some very important group, but reality is otherwise. They don't even have as many twitter followers as those they follow there. Less than a 1:1 ratio.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There's apparently been an attempt to revive the Igud in the last few years by some right-wing MO types who think the RCA is too liberal or whatever. But I think that's a handful of people with very large megaphones.

      Delete
  17. Mizrachi and Yaron are in line with the chareidi sachar and oinesh worldview. They just take it to a more extreme level with their simple, explicit and blunt style.

    Every 5 year old should be able to sniff out that these egomaniacs lack some Yirat Shamayim. Their virtue signalling is disgusting, actions speak for themselves and don't need a constant reminder of how many millions their returned to Judaism. Perhaps they see every CD they distributed as a returned soul?
    And the way they keep judging fellow jews with their sharp tongues is a disgrace. Even Moshe Rabeinu opted for a second set of Luchois and continiue with Am Yisrael as they are, rather then start again with a nation of just Tzadikim.

    Just read shir hashirim to realize that the relationship betweem Am Yisrael and Hashem is not so straightforward after all. It's not just about being ok by doing mitzvot or being rashaim gemorim and being cut of the tribe. Am Yisrael's purpose is practically incomprehendable and so much more then what these 2 are trying to make you believe.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Further besmirching these Rabbis will only avail more defence from them and cause their further attacks on those they deride. What I would suggest is not going to be taken lightly here either - and I am first in the queue to see Mizrachi and Reuven banned by the Beth Din. Please be gentle in your condemnation of my remarks and do not follow the hate style of these 2 Rabbis. Help me right or give me reasonable counter reasonings. It may only hurt you because it is self-examining. I will raise it in 2 points:

    1. As much as I repudiate Mizrachi's style and reasoning, I did re-listen very carefully to his statement on the 'non-Jewishness' of the Holocaust victims. I believe in this he was correct! Why? Because daily I hear the condemnation of Reform and Conservative etc etc Jews - even from our top leaders, i.e. that they are "NOT" Jews!? Then when the Holocaust comes and Hitler regards even those children of Jewish fathers married to Gentiles, as Jews to be killed (and most of those victims were such 'far-off', assimilated and Reform Jews - certainly JEWS in my estimation also, so I even agree with Hitler here!) now all of a sudden the 'real Jews'cry for them? And I refuse to be called erring on this. THIS is what we have to address in the wake of these 2 Rabbis' hatred.

    2.. And even worse - the finger pointing back at us. I read and responded thru the entire long list of comments on this latest video of them against the 14 (in my estimation) respected Rabbis. In response the supporters of these hate mongering Rabbis repeatedly corrected the overwhelming objection from viewers in these comments, by referring them to the authorization of their hatred and unjust judging from TALMUDIC WRITINGS! I do NOT intend reading or checking such guidance sources in Talmud, whoever authored it, in fear that I may become besmirched with that evil spirit also. But, I presume they are correct and that it IS indeed written and sanctified by whoever was the author. I have raised this enquiry numerous times with Rabbis in the past but never received a response. The best response I got was from a Reform Rabbi who in response to my question covered his head with his arms and wouldn't discuss it further. Would anyone on this Forum dare to answer me: WHAT ARE WE TO DO WITH THESE GUIDELINES IF INDEED THEY ARE WRITTEN? We have just in the last weeks seen such a revealing of what some current Rabbis and the Talmud say in places about "women". This was done as a smear campaign against Rabbis. They did so by producing copied video photo evidence of these writings - in a video which went viral in Israel. They are an Israeli Messianic Jesus Jews group who are drawing thousands of Jews to their Torah-less but loving "Jesus Christianity" - which by the way, never makes such bloodthirsty claims about even fully evil people. These 2 Rabbis preach such a blood thirsty God and base their conclusions and authority to execute on statements from Talmud. IF these exist, what are w to do about that? And if in this instance it is not written in Talmud somewhere, then I indeed have other horrid awesome topics for which I have seen such written proof in writings and in fact, confirmed by current Rabbis.

    I suggest THIS needs our serious attention and correction or adjustment in these times where this 'evil mongering of Jews' are going wild, universally on Internet which is at everyone's disposal, even in the jungles.

    WHAT ARE WE TO DO IN THAT REGARD?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Nothing. The rantings of lunatics, rational or irrational, should just be ignored.

      Delete
    2. I've never heard non-Orthodox Jews referred to as "not Jews." Maybe we just travel in different circles, but if someone is a halachic Jew, they're Jewish.

      And, of course, most Holocaust victims *weren't* Reform.

      But logic is not much for these types. So why bother?

      Delete
    3. regarding question #1:
      the bond between Hashem and Am Yisrael is two-fold. והייתם לי סגולה and ואתם תהיו לי ממלכת כהנים וגוי קדוש.(shemoth 19 5) the first one is something inherently and doesn't change no matter how we behave, while the second one is our purpose in this world and either we live by that either we don't. With its consequences , אם בחוקותי תלכו/תמאסו.

      its comparable to the relationship between father and son versus master and slave. the first one is unconditional love while the latter depends how the slave performs. thats what pray אם כבנים אם כעבדים.

      now I see it as a big challenge to have both perspectives in mind when looking at klal israel.
      because hitler had a problem with Jews for their inherent Jewishness while the 2 clowns are so focused on the exterior side in such a way that they pull out numbers of their sleeves. Its difficult for me to put hitler and these 2 clowns in the same sentence downgrading what hitler did and exagerating what these 2 clowns are all about, but our friends don't seem to have problem with comparing every second person to hitler, o the irony.

      Delete
    4. " And I refuse to be called erring on this. "

      Interesting attitude. So if you're actually mistaken, it doesn't matter?

      More recent scholarship of the sheer amount of camps and mass graves indicates 6 million is likely to be an underestimate anyway, but if a sliver of that total number (Whether it's 6 million, or 6.5 or whatever it is!) happened to be technically non-Jewish because of intermarriage in the previous two generations, why would that be relevant? Actual Jews (as determined by halacha) were targeted and exterminated in huge numbers.
      There were ALSO millions of gays, Slavs, gypsies and other "undesirable" groups murdered too. Are we supposed to not feel bad for them because they weren't Jewish? What a twisted thinking.
      Evil is evil.

      As for part 2 of your rant, it's not clear to me what you're trying to say.

      Delete
    5. Ovadia, are you Orthodox? If not you should study some Orthodoxy 101.

      daily I hear the condemnation of Reform and Conservative etc etc Jews - even from our top leaders, i.e. that they are "NOT" Jews

      Could we listen in on these daily condemnations? Where are they? Who is saying them? And are they talking about matrilineal Jews?

      Delete
  19. I think it's a good idea for everyone to take it down a notch. Remember that the 2nd Beit Hamikdash was destroyed due to Sinat Hinam. Some of the Mefarshim explain that different Jewish groups splintered and started looking at each other as Heretics.
    For the sake of Am Yisrael, let's all take it down a notch. People have different perspectives and their is value to those Rabbis (both on the list and those who made it).
    Ssvi

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. And some people cry sinas chinam when they should be crying Eis laasos.
      And some people cry sinas chinam when it is their guy being attacked.

      I don't know your politics, but these two men seem a little "off" based on these videos.

      Anyway, that's R' Slifkin's whole point - that he was going to do nothing, but now he feels that this is a potentially dangerous situation. Avoiding it because of sinas chinam is a Neville Chamberlain answer.

      Delete
    2. Reb Inigo MontoyaJuly 22, 2020 at 1:29 AM

      And here is another person who has never matured past a tenth grade understanding of what happened during the Second Temple times and its destruction.

      Delete
    3. And some just cry. Like this original posting. That no one would have ever heard of had Slifkin not shared it.

      Delete
    4. The Second Beit HaMikdash was destroyed because some Jews insisted on a fight with a power they couldn't have won against. That they might have done better had they been united is an arguable point (first suggested by Josephus, of all people), which is possibly where the "sinat chinam" idea comes from, but it was a matter of time.

      Delete
    5. Rambam explains why the Roman destroyed the Second Temple when he penned his letter to Jews in Marseilles. Maimonides explained that the Second Temple fell because Jews focused on bad theology without military preparations.

      Delete
  20. Sephardim have such a glorious intellectual tradition; but unfortunately in recent years the Sephardic world seems to be depressingly susceptible to to primitive, extremist, third-world, clowns such as these.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Reb Inigo MontoyaJuly 22, 2020 at 1:30 AM

      A glorious intellectual tradition? Whatever do you mean. Statistically?

      Delete
    2. No one comes out very well statistically. Even Ashkenazic Jews were not, by and large, great intellectual leaders. No population ever is.

      Delete
    3. Sephardim, on average aren't any worse then Ashkenazim are at the current moment. Some of the broad and targeted generalizations on this page are disappointing in their racist language which I would hope would be better then that and try to place the current situation for Sephardim into perspective given the hardships, often caused by Jews in the name of zionism, we have faced in the last 80 years.

      Delete
  21. What I thought was ironic was that they were decrying 'foreign' influences and they used Christian imagery in their video of devil like figures with horns, and Holywood movie clips, the very influences they were decrying.

    ReplyDelete
  22. It only took a few minutes to follow Rabbi Slifkin's advice and do something, even if just a small thing. Here's what I wrote to the Rabbinical Alliance: "Hello, is it true this person is member of yours? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFY07Y4CnRw&feature=youtu.be  
    Should he be?   please reconsider.  Thank you,  Mrs. S. (Name redacted) (A concerned Jew who cares about achdus and about not giving ammunition to our enemies).  

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That's certain to bring the Messiah.

      Delete
    2. What did that accomplish?

      Delete
  23. R. Yaron Reuven is evidently a musmach of "Kollel Ayshel Avraham" of radio host R. Yaakov Spivak from Monsey, NY. Spivak has been involved with Igud-RAA for years. R. Klass of Igud is a lecturer.

    Chag Hasmicha with R. Reuven video here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoqnX0cL0vY (shorter, highlights)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdZyW9h6onw (long version)

    Let's just say that Kollel Ayshel Avraham is not the most prestigious ordination out there.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Why do alleged credentials matter?

      Delete
    2. Zev, to indicate authority and honesty.

      Delete
  24. I just watched Reuven's video "RABBI YARON REUVEN EXPLAINS WHY HITLER ATTACKED JEWS"

    Gotta tell you, the main problem is with the clickbait title. The theological premises and warnings that he presents are not at all unusual in the Orthodox world, and are commonly held beliefs by many and perhaps a majority of non-MO Orthodox.

    While I don't hold by his theological beliefs, he does convey a very important - and uncomfortable - message regarding unethical behavior in the financial world which is disproportionately Jewish. And how this has historical not turned out well for us.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Oh look! More assertions without historical sources to back them up. (And assertions that slander the Jewish people and blame them solely for various countries' historical problems). Cool stuff bro.

      Delete
  25. Do rationalists wish each other Mazal Tov? If they do, what do they mean by mazal?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Mazal tov" means "congratulations." It doesn't mean "Good luck."

      Delete
    2. Yes, “mazal tov” means good luck (or more precisely, I wish you a good planet to guide your life).

      Delete
  26. I suppose there is the dirty little point that, as Mark Steyn has pointed out, when respectable opinion forbids the saying of certain things, non-respectable types will step up. Unfortunately, I think that may explain at least some of Mizrachi's appeal. It's unfortunate or worse. But the solution to that isn't to shut him up, and avoid those certain things, but perhaps to outflank him in a normal, respectable way. Someone just has to have the courage to so, in this environment.

    I just want to register my displeasure with your call to people to monitor everything they say and then report them to whoever. Free speech is davka a value for things we *don't* like (and trust me, I don't like Mizrachi and his crew *at all*), and we all know where attacks on it have led. Surely there must be some better way to cancel them out than, well, Cancelling them.
    Although of course the threat of real violence is real.

    ReplyDelete
  27. "The most devoted followers of Mizrachi and Reuven are often of poor character – crass people, hateful people, violent people."

    I think this comment is way out of line.

    Yes, Mizrachi and Reuven are charlatans and they say outrageous things, many of which are contemptible.

    But that's no license to smear the many decent people who are taken in by these two hucksters.

    I personally know many people who are big fans of the two - particularly Mizrachi - but who are very decent, upstanding people themselves.

    They take their abrasive, no-compromise style as a sign of authenticity, and when pressed on the outrageous (and sometimes obnoxious or hyperbolic comments) Reuven and Mizrachi make, they point to outlandish comments made by prominent rabbis of the past (Rabbi Ovadiah is usually one mentioned as an example).

    They're wrong, of course, but hardly "crass, hateful, and violent".

    ReplyDelete
  28. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  29. For some reason, Mizrahi's followers were permitted to post here, but only the ones with the least intelligence.
    The true answer to Mizrahi and others like him, who announce to people what they did wrong to cause their own tragedies, is to be found in the Shulchan Aruch. אין מיתה בלא חטא, but it is forbidden to go to a Shiva to tell people that. Even if it may be true, it is irrelevant. Mizrahi may think he is following the Torah, but he isn't, he is making a mistake.

    ReplyDelete
  30. "but only the ones with the least intelligence". Wow, this comment is really intelligent!

    ReplyDelete
  31. I don't like these rabbis, but can someone comment on this: There is the 'enlightened', lenient, loving, hip, inclusive, non-dogmatic 'modern' side of the Sages, and then there is the other -- 'MIzrachi/Reuven' -- side of them-- often from the same Sages who said such 'enlightened' things. (I can include the respected rabbis after the Sages too in this. Maimonides comes to mind as one who anathematized those who didn't do certain deeds or hold certain dogmas)

    ReplyDelete

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