Wednesday, December 2, 2015

Gedolei Yisroel Insist On Economic Ruin For Charedim, All Israel

A conference was held yesterday in Bnei Brak for the principals of charedi girls' schools, in the presence of Gedolei Yisroel from both Agudas Yisroel and Degel HaTorah. The conference was dedicated to "The Dangers of Academic Institutions for Women." It was emphasized that "Bnos Yisrael should not get a matriculation diploma (bagrut) or engage in studies preparing them for higher learning without exception and one must not take the tests independently. All studies and continuing education seminars attended by the girls and teachers in Beis Yaakov must be exclusively in the framework of Beis Yaakov and no other institution and it goes without saying a woman should not seek an academic diploma."

One of the speakers quoted Rav Steinman as saying that "it is better to steal money than for a women to attend college." In light of this Daas Torah, perhaps the twenty charedi school principals and businessmen who were recently arrested for being part of a fraud ring can be viewed more positively - at least they weren't getting their money as a result of a college education. (And, of course, they were demonstrating the truth of Chazal's statement that one who does not teach his child a career has taught his child to steal.)

Also at the conference, the Gedolim warned of the dangers of the relatively high salaries that academic qualifications can bring. A member of the Council of Torah Sages, Rav Dovid Cohen, observed that it can cause problems in a marriage if the husband is just a kollel student, bringing home virtually no money, whereas the wife has a professional career and brings home a good salary. His solution is for her to also lack a professional career and to bring home virtually no money.

In related news, the charedi political parties recently managed to overturn all the changes introduced by the previous government. And in other related news, Bank of Israel governor Dr. Karnit Flug warned of economic disaster for Israel if charedim, who number a third of all first-grade students, do not enter the professional workforce.

81 comments:

  1. Without stating the obvious. people have autonomy and free will. If you choose to belong to the community that these Rabbi are the leaders of, you should listen/respect your leadership. If you do not like what they have to say, don't be a hypocrite and just leave and join another community, its that simple a choice, however complicated/emotionally taxing it is to achieve in reality.

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    1. All good and well, but this has a massive impact on Israel's economy and stability and going forward, the general welfare of ultimately hundreds of thousands, if not actually millions of Jews. It cannot be dismissed and it is not hypocrisy or any such hyperbolic description. Leaving these communities are not realistic choices. Their leaders simply have no clue and keep their flock imprisoned mentally and physically.

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    2. Unfortunately, the real people impacted by such a decision do not have a choice in the matter. Most of these girls are just high school students and still have no idea what they want out of life and thus go along blindly with their parents decisions. This is especially true in this community where the children are taught from the womb to never question authority and follow whatever their parents/rabbis tell them.

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    3. Unfortunately, the real people impacted by such a decision do not have a choice in the matter. Most of these girls are just high school students and still have no idea what they want out of life and thus go along blindly with their parents decisions. This is especially true in this community where the children are taught from the womb to never question authority and follow whatever their parents/rabbis tell them.

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    4. Except that this community does not operate in a vacuum, and its decisions and actions have a huge impact on the world it lives. See the last paragraph for an example.

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    5. Natan is doing the thankless job of staying in the system to save it from within.
      I, for one, truly appreciate your work, Natan.
      As a kid, I never had a choice to not be Charedi. Yes. I do think that people should stick up for our children!

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    6. So says you, Rael. You say anyone in that community "should" listen to this so called leadership. No one is forced to do any such thing. Some people are part of that community only because they were born into it. Others choose to live in that community for other reasons, such as the strong culture of learning or Musser or modesty values or any other reason. Or maybe they don't want to join other communities, no one should demand that they do. Who says any individual has to listen to this advice? They can be a charedi and also get an academic degree, essentially ignoring this entire panel of self professed experts, and if they do no one can or should say boo. Your premise that if one is a charedi he is beholden to all this is deeply flawed.

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  2. When will centrist Orthodoxy say enough is enough? When will a YU Rosh Yeshiva finally speak out against it? When will we stop worshiping people just because they have learned a little Torah?

    These pronouncements become more surreal as time goes on. All that Coke to mind is the gemorah that says עולם הפוך ראיתי.

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    1. The problem Gershon, is that centrist othodoxy has the upmost respect for these gedolim. Take it from a KBY alumnus, centrist rabbis hold Rav Steinman to the highest esteem. That doesn't stop them from disagreeing with their lifestyle, but they will not attack them.

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  3. They went even further. In relation to women getting secular degrees Rabbi Aviezer Pilz said:

    the furnaces of this generation burn more intensely than the furnaces of Auschwitz

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    1. This is so sick that it is obscene.

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    2. This is so sick that it is obscene.

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    3. Sad to think that such a person is purportedly educating Torah scholars when he should be in utter disgrace for his despicable comparison

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    4. ...except he didnt say that. Maybe you should listen to the recording of what was said not take FailedMessiah's word for it.

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  4. It is time to revoke these guys titles as "Gedolei Yisroel", literally translated as the Greats of Israel. If someone studied military strategy extensively and was a purported "brilliant military strategist" but every single idea they proposed was illogical, imbecilic, self-defeating or impossible, would we continue to call them such?

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  5. Control freaks and dictators like to keep their subjects down and enslaved.

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  6. אין קמח אין תורה for me there is a new meaning now. They have lost the common decency that is more important than Torah scholarship. Honestly, I think MO and DL should refuse to donate to any meshulach that doesn't commit to send his kids to a school with diplomas (there are Charedi ones like maarava and hayishuv amongst others). The same for yeshivot that don't give diplomas.

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  7. Moshe Dick writes:
    I think that the biggest hypocrisy is the fact that most of the chassidic admorim are very rich and are supported by their poor chassidim. As far as the so-called yeshiva part of the chareidim, the yeshivos only have jobs for the members of the families that control the yeshivos. All of these so-called gedolim care not one hoot for their followers. Disgraceful.

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  8. > Rav Dovid Cohen,observed that it can cause problems in a marriage if the husband is just a kollel student, bringing home virtually no money, whereas the wife has a professional career and brings home a good salary.

    If it's true that it would cause problems in a marriage for Chareidim, then the rational response is to work to change the culture. Not treat it as if it's a law of nature. I know plenty of people, myself included, whose wives make more than they do and who have wonderful marriages.

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  9. Are any chazals quoted to support these ideas at these events?

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  10. Are any chazals quoted in support of these opinions at these events?

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  11. It sounds like "Rav" Steinman is a Zakein Mamrei.

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  12. This may be obvious to the readers, but certainly Rabbi Shteinman was not saying it's OK to steal. He was saying (assuming he was quoted correctly, and the question was asked as stated...) that any means which have Halachic problems, whether Bein Adam LaChaveiro or Bein Adam Lamokom, are equally forbidden as a way of earning a living. And as opposed to stealing, where the money can be returned, exposure to negative situations cannot easily be compensated for.
    Whether university, because of the possible danger to a young adult's faith and/or sexual conduct, falls under that category, is subject to discussion. In general, HaRav Shteinman's and some others at that level are against giving a blanket approval for university, but will give it on an individual basis. We don't know what the personal situation of the Avreich that asked him was, nor how he presented it to the Rav, and therefore why the Rav determined that it was not a good thing it that situation. In another circumstance he may have given his approval, based on need, and on the person being sufficiently prepared to deal with the Nisyonot.

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    1. I agree with you that we know not what R Shteinman said. But we do know that this heinous statement was said in that gathering, yet no report of any denouncement came forth.

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    2. This is not a "heinous statement." This is the considered opinion of some gedolim addressing this particular issue. As with ALL pronouncements by our leaders, one must inquire specifically what it might mean for their own personal life - if one chooses to do so.
      These rabbis are truly trying to evaluate what is Best for the spiritual health of those that they can effect in their community and among our Jewish People.
      To condemn their concerns as a "heinous statement" makes one a Victim of that dreaded disease of Victimhood that has infected the human race.
      For the last 50 years, children have been inculcated into the idea that there is NO "Higher Authority" in their lives and that the ONLY thing that matters is whether or not they are "Offended" by someone or something else. This is called Self Love; Self Worship; the Right to Bear NO Responsibility for One's Life.
      This secular infection is the root of Islamist terror (the "religion" of Perpetual Outrage); the hatreds of "Black Lives Matter" and "Occupy Wall Street;" and the endless babblings of politicians and world leaders who speak only in the 1st Person and condemn all those who do not agree with them.
      As noted - Jews are not known for stupidity. Everyone has free will and should exercise it without stooping to hate those with whom they disagree.

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    3. To Anonymous:
      I realize that you are doing your best to put a positive spin on this story, that you want to believe that Haredi leaders really are not as extreme as their statements make them appear, that they don't want their followers to be mired in poverty, that they are only concerned with spiritual dangers. Unfortunately, your explanation does not work.

      This was not an answer to a specific question by a specific individual. It was a general statement applicable to all, made at a public conference dedicated to this issue.

      I understand the spiritual danger posed by secular universities, especially for Haredim who have been brainwashed not to think for themselves, to believe all other human beings are hateful dunces, and all sorts of other nonsense about science and history. Exposure to secular higher education risks contradicting all of this.

      However there are also a number higher educational institutions that admit Haredim only and do not contradict Haredi nonsense. No exception was made for these institutions: instead, these "Gedolim" issued a blanket prohibition. They also specifically described the fact of women earning money--independent of whether this is due to academic study--as a danger.

      I see no other reasonable interpretation but that they really do prefer their followers to be ignorant and poor.

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    4. If you want to be really technical about what RALS meant, it seems that he prioritized extreme chumrahs in bein Adam lMakom (avoiding all secular studies) over simple pshat in bein Adam lchaveiro (stealing). Is that the sign of a great Jewish leader?

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    5. To moish- I think you misunderstood. To say that it is better to steal is heinous. I agreed that the original statement might have not been that etc., however, what was said over is indeed heinous. Stealing being worse than a secular education is absolutely twisted.
      Also, you can call this generation selfish all you like, but this is an accepting generation. Sensitive to the "other" and different. 60 years ago people were taught that it was ok to kill the other. The most violent generation of mankind killed millions. Good riddance to the violence and intolerance! Are some people overly sensitive? Yes. But I prefer this to overly callous- that to me is much more selfish.

      But to address your point, regardless of your view on authority, how is the promotion of stealing healthy? Could the point that a secular education is unhealthy (a point I disagree with strongly) not been said otherwise? What happened to promoting decency! I am not saying that R Shteinman said something heinous, because he was being quoted, but the speaker sent out a heinous message to no (known) objection! That is most troubling.

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    6. As is almost always the case when trying to quote someone with whom you vehemently disagree, a person tends to truncate the quote to make it as shocking as possible.
      The speaker who theoretically quoted Rav Steinman, said, in response to another question, "I know a better way to make a fortune - steal!" He then elaborated (I am paraphrasing) that if a person steals, he can always return the stolen item and do teshuva but that a secular education can permanently damage (or steal?) a girl's neshama. Something like that.
      The reaction is, of course, to take these words at their most literal sense which is that Rav Shteinman was recommending a life of crime instead of going to college.
      I don't think think so.
      However, if the author and others believe that this is so - gezunt heit! You should all live and be well.
      But - you might want to reflect on the mitzvah of giving Everyone, no matter what your personal feeling is, the benefit of the doubt.

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    7. It is interesting to note that many of the Gedolim of the past also made a living. Rashi is one example. Rambam is another. And they still produced lasting works that are studied and respected hundred of years later. Which Gagol of the last 100 years produced such work, even if they never worked and studied Torah 24/7?

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  13. I can't help but be reminded of this ancient group: "At the beginning of the First Jewish–Roman War, the Zealots destroyed the city's food supply so that the people would be forced to fight against the Roman siege instead of negotiating peace."

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    1. The problem is that the zealots did NOT listen to the Rabbis!!

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    2. SOME Rabbis. Others backed the Rebellion(s) over the decennia. Heck, even one of our most famous and revered Rabbis annointed a Moshiach! Does anyone ever question that decision?

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    3. Only because the rabbis happened to be right in that case. Not because they have some magical power and listening to them is an end in itself even if they say something incorrect or immoral.

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  14. The real question is how will this craziness end? Economic and social catastrophe? Disintegration of the daas Torah system? The future is frighteningly uncertain.

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  15. To be fair, there are charedi organizations that help charedi men get gainful employment. One of them is Kivun (www.kivun.org.il). They must be endorsed by some rabbonim as well.

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  16. Ah, so now it's keep-women-barefoot-pregnant-and-ignorant? Misogynistic and (therefore) repulsive!

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  17. We may take comfort in the fact that this is merely a desperate ploy. The train has left the station and will not return. See the Israel Democracy Institute's recent statistics on Haredi high education. So I wouldn't make too big a deal over this.

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  18. Seriously though, this is old news. The question we should be asking is: what can be done to stop this absurdity. Unfortunately, I have only one answer: convince people to leave the Chareidi world. Any other answers would be much appreciated.

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  19. I would prefer not to contribute to charitable organizations that perpetuate the current situation by providing for the poor resulting from a population unable, through lack of training, our just unwilling, to participate in the modern economic world. On the other hand how can I stand by and see hungry children and families suffer the effects of poverty, even if it is of their own making. We have to find a way out of this Catch 22 situation. I am sorry to say that Chareidi "gedolei Yisrael" will have to be circumvented in the search for this solution.

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    1. "It will get worse before it gets better."

      Sometimes you have to let a generation die off to make room for a healthier population to replace it. As far as I am concerned, Charedim are committing societal suicide, and they are welcome to it.

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  20. And, other gedolai Yisroel would disagree on all or in part or with caveats, etc.
    I'm general, Torah observant Jews tend not to behave like dumb animals, doing whatever they are told to do... We learn in the Torah that thinking about what is best for oneself as an individual and for the Jewish People, is both a curse and a blessing (although their may be disagreements about that. 😎 )

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  21. Even their apologists, like Rosenbaum, will not know what to do with this.

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  22. This type of meeting is encouraging. Obviously there is a trend within Charedim that women are getting degrees, thus a backlash. The backlash is unlikely to slow the trend, as it was always discouraged anyway.

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  23. The haredi leadership keeps its subjects poor, which makes them dependent on the haredi welfare system, which forces them to vote for haredi parties, which keeps the haredi leadership in power, which keeps its subjects poor ... It's a vicious cycle, with a capital vicious.

    These leaders have made it so the only way out is to vote with your feet. Fortunately, a growing number of young men are doing exactly that. Unfortunately, many of them keep on walking straight into outright secularism.

    That is what happened in Europe: the same kind of scorched-earth anti-Haskalah tactics by the leaders of nascent Haredism led a majority to abandon Judaism. But as their historiography (I use the term loosely) has portrayed this as a glorious victory, the Haredim have learned nothing from this tragedy.

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    1. Could you elaborate or link me to sources? I have been wondering for years now what really happened in the haskala....the version I've always heard just has so many holes.

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    2. Rav dessler said that there were two modes of thinking at the time. Berlin and Lithuania. The Lithunians had no secular education, and thus produced more Talmidei Chachamim, but also lost more to secularism. The Berlinians lost much less to secularism but produced less Talmidei Chachamim.

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    3. It's been a while since I studied this period, and my home library is limited. But I will try to elaborate. Please excuse the length of my response.

      In medieval Europe, the Jewish community was a nation within a nation. It was subject to its own laws and its own authorities. They could and often did force you to be observant. If you didn't like that, you could always convert to Christianity. What you couldn't do was assimilate, because as a Jew you were not welcome in Gentile society.
      The Protestant reformation and the wars that followed created the idea of a nation-state existing independently of an established church. This opened the door to Jews becoming citizens. Over time--mostly during the 19th century--the communal authorities lost their power, and the ghetto walls came down.
      But there was a price. If you look at the debates about giving equality to the Jews, almost no one wanted the Jews to be equal in their present condition. The belief was that if the Jews became equal, they would be "improved", i.e. made into better Germans/ Poles/ whatever.
      So it wasn't today's equality, which is ours by right, without demands for conformity. It was equality with expectations.
      Traditional leaders were hostile to this kind change. To them, outward changes such as language and dress required to get ahead in society were inseparable from abandoning Judaism.
      The 1st generation of maskilim had modest goals. They wanted Jews to speak the vernacular and get some secular education. I'm not talking Aristotle--just basic math and language skills. You'll note that these goals have been realized, even among the hasidim.
      Jews at that time lived in really miserable economic and social conditions. This was not new, but now there was a way out.
      But traditional leaders said no. To them it was better for Jews to live in poverty, misery and oppression than to acculturate in any way. To this day, Habad celebrates the defeat of Napoleon by the Russians, because Napoleon gave the Jews civil equality, while Russia confined them to the Pale of Settlement. (Yes, Napoleon was defeated. But whose vision of the future prevailed?)
      Traditional leaders wanted isolationism to continue. But isolation had been imposed from without, and now it wasn't. Moreover, ending isolationism could make a real difference in people's lives. And just then, traditional leaders had lost their ability to impose their will on Jews.

      Continued...

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    4. Part 2
      Jews now could choose. Not surprisingly, many of them chose acculturation as a way to escape poverty and persecution. They were told that this was tantamount to abandoning Judaism, and that became a self-fulfilling prophecy.
      In fact, ghettoized Europe was a historical aberration, and now it was over. Moreover, the experience of Samson Raphael Hirsch showed that it was in fact possible to integrate outward acculturation with observant Judaism.
      So resistance to minimal acculturation wasn't just doomed; it was futile, too. The ghetto walls were not coming back. Neither was communal authority. Traditional leaders failed to grasp that they had to make people WANT to stay observant.
      In Russia, where there was little progress toward civil equality, things played out differently. Instead of adopting Enlightenment values, people became socialists or Zionists (or both). But the bottom line was, there was a great demand for things to change, which traditional leaders failed to respond to.
      As the Haredim never tire of pointing out, the Holocaust proved that acculturation for tolerance was a false promise. What they fail to grasp is that we are still living within that bargain.
      The Haredim would like to pretend that they are a carbon copy of medieval European Jewish life. This is not the case: they are trying to enforce isolationism from within, while in Europe it was imposed from without. And by the standards of the conflict with Haskalah, they have acculturated.
      Of course, later generations of maskilim, rejected by traditional leaders, became more radical. But it is a mistake to see them as the ones driving change. Haskalah was one of many reactions to social, structural and economic changes that altered the very basis of Jewish life.

      Today the conditions are very different. Legal equality is ours by right, not as a carrot for acculturation. We live in a multicultural society: you can rock your big black fedora to the NY State Assembly (or federal prison, as the case may be), and there is no requirement for us to keep up with popular culture. Yet while Hirsch could wholeheartedly adopt the values of Enlightenment liberalism without contradicting Judaism, it is far more difficult for us to reconcile Judaism with some of the values of today's secular society.
      This conflict is reflected in rationalism vs. mysticism. The medieval Jewish rationalists lived in an integrated society; in many ways, mysticism was a response to the end of that tolerance. When persecution ebbed in Europe, rationalism once more became popular.

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    5. Thank you. This information (plus this entire blog) is helping my family figure out how to proceed given the growing extremism of our sect (we're chareidi).

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    6. anon- stop lying.

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  24. You confuse two different things in this post. You note in the end that they are related, i.e., they are not the same, but you treat both subjects as though they were.

    Concerning Charedim generally, there's no doubt they're a disaster. It's a man's fundamental obligation to provide for his family. That is true from any possible angle you can look it - Biblical, Talmudic, or just plain human DNA. The failure to teach this basic responsibility means the Charedim have failed in their basic obligations as parents and teachers.

    But in this post the issue concerns women working. I don't agree with the extreme charedi viewpoint expressed here. That you lump women in together with men supporting their families is precisely the very reason why Charedim would never agree with you. The post does not appear to show any appreciation for the difference between the sexes, and their different responsibilities. The Charedi world, you can be assured, is VERY conscious of this distinction, and they will reject out of hand anyone who fails to appreciate it. Unlike the general problem with Charedim, with women working the question is one of line-drawing. You can say (and I would agree) they've drawn the line too far to the right. But that is very different from the direction you took it in your headline and in the post itself.

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    1. DF:I could accept that claim if Charedi men worked and Charedi women stayed at home and raised kids. But Charedi men *don't* work, and Charedi women are *expected* to. Which makes this story even more perverse.

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    2. If these same leaders advocated that men should go earn a living instead of learning full time, I could see how you could interpret their statement as a defense of the traditional family.

      But in fact, at least two generations of Bais Yaakov girls have been specifically indoctrinated to believe that their highest aspiration should be to work in order to support their husbands while they learn full-time. Their husbands-to-be, meanwhile, are by Haredi policy far less qualified than their wives to join the work force.

      [A closer study of social history would tell you that the notion of the single-breadwinner family as traditionally normative is mostly mythical; in most times and places, the vast majority of families have required two earners to survive. But that's another story.]

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    3. Nachum and David - I take your points. It could be this latest pronouncement is "coming" from the general Charedi opposition to working, rather than from the commitment to traditional family values. I don't see it that way, though. Regardless of the motivation, I think it wrong to put this issue in the same category as the overall ills overtaking the Charedi world.

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  25. Natan, you are a great satire writer - keep it up! As for your hate for fellow members of Klal Yisrael - please don’t go on a mass shooting in the name of "your religion". Natan, you are lowlife -why are bashing fellow Jews do something positive with your life! Lowlife, why is your identity that you are not like the people you bash? Do something positive worth being called Judaism other than bashing fellow Jews. Yet again Natan you sink lower and lower in your haughty and self righteous view of yourself. You are an ego maniac focused on hurting others for the sake of your own glory and fame shame on you! What makes you any different than the Hellenists who sought to be like the goyim?
    You are a total idiot; you spew such nonsense; like “the Rishonim never saw an olive in their lives! Fool, why would you bash the sages of your own religion?! Or have you sold out of Judaism and truly are a Hellenist? Throw off your kippah stop embarrassing your fellow Jews. This is no way for a Religious Jew to behave – knocking and spewing hatred against other Jews.

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    1. Modern_Orthodox, I have a new rule for you: You get to post one comment per post. I deleted the others.

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    2. Rav Natan, don't even allow a single one; he's a troll plain and simple and just trying to provoke, not contribute.

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    3. Typical Charedi response. Attack the messenger, not his ideas, because you cannot counteract the ideas so just curse the messenger.

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    4. Agree with Akiva.

      Bill: you're halfway there. When you realize that we all fall into this mode of thinking at one time or another, then you are on the road to enlightenment.

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  26. I find it interesting (though completely not surprising) that no women were involved in this discussion. It is not as if they may have something to add about what it's like to be an 18 year old girl in the modern world. Eh nashim daatan kala so who cares.

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    1. And the Lithuanians to this day, not only don't care, they are proud of that fact.

      Charedim would rather their OTDs become completely secular, than MO.

      Sure, they pay lip service to kiruv, but as a practical matter, they have little tolerance for it (exceptfor those that find it a lucrative income and or a good source of rich sons in law.)

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    2. I deleted my comment since it was a response to David. I reposted it under his comment. The gist was R Dessler saying that Lithunians had an all or nothing approach raising more Talmidei Chachamim but having more Kofrim while in Berlin they adopted secular education and had less of both.

      Rav Shach once famously said that if he lost 999 students to make 1 talmid chacham it'd be worth it.

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  29. How will this effect the "moderate Charedi" girls' schools in RBS-A. Don't a bunch of them offer some sort of bagrut? Are these schools now "outside the geder"?

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  30. @DF: I think that you missed the invention of the washing machine, packaged food, mass-production of clothing, running water and electricity, and universal primary and secondary education (and maybe women's suffrage). Now that women have been freed from fetching water from the well, they have the freedom to apply their minds to whatever tasks they find fulfilling.

    But I guess this mode of reasoning is just a symptom radical feminism and could (horrors) lead to women rabbis, so let's deep-six it with the help of the Charedi right wing.

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    1. They know full well about suffrage. They tell them how to apply it in the elections.

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    2. It's not charedim who have "deeped six" the conceit of "women rabbis"; Orthodox Jews of all Jews are simply not interested in it, period. There is no groundswell of support for it, among any of the streams of orthodoxy. It is simply not going to happen. (horors, some would say.)

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    3. DF, you missed my point entirely. You are arguing that it might be reasonable to limit these women's educational opportunities based on the same reasoning that is used to argue against women Rabbis: it is not their "traditional" role and anyone who supports it is some radical feminist anti-orthodox that would overturn all of Judaism.

      @Izzy, precisely, which is why the defense of "keeping women in their traditional role" is so absurd.

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    4. Actually I'm not arguing that at all and its you who misread me originally. But whatever. It's not worth pursuing or addressing further here.

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    5. OK, DF, my apologies. I thought that you were defending to some degree their limits on women's educational opportunities. I retract my comment...

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  31. While everyone is digesting the red meat here, let me bring some facts to your attention:

    1. The "quote" from Rav Shteinman about stealing is unreliable. People are always "quoting" the Gedolim and when you speak with their family members you find out that those are generally the least reliable sources of information.

    2. Based on the source you quoted, here is ALL Rav Shteinman wrote:

    כבר עוררנו בעבר על חומר הלימוד במקומות שאין רוח חכמים נוחה מהם, ואנו שבים ומעוררים שהמקום היחידי שאפשר וראוי לחנך בו בנות ישראל הוא במסגרות בית יעקב בלבד

    This letter allows far more latitude in women's education than the speakers at this conference were purportedly willing to give.

    3. Read the comments from the article R. Slifkin links to. The Chareidim on Yeshiva World more or less agree with the readership here.

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    1. Well done. Facts are useful things. Thank you.

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  32. Good morning! Check this out: http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Leading-rabbi-Higher-education-for-women-more-damaging-than-the-Holocaust-436420

    Lovely (not).

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  33. @CJ Srullowitz

    While everyone is digesting the red meat here, let me bring some facts to your attention:

    1. The "quote" from Rav Shteinman about stealing is unreliable. People are always "quoting" the Gedolim and when you speak with their family members you find out that those are generally the least reliable sources of information.


    I agree that we don't know what Rav Steinman said, but this is precisely the problem with the Charedi leadership. Whatever he actually holds, his imprimatur is being used in some sort of decision-making conference that feels bound to what they think he said.

    To put it another way, what is troubling is not who said this, but that people in charge accept it as authoritative.

    Perhaps instead of playing a game of telephone with a 100 year old man, no matter how pious, great and learned, they should apply their own brains to the problems and come up with reasonable solutions. The method described is "Daas Torah" at its worst.

    2. Based on the source you quoted, here is ALL Rav Shteinman wrote:

    כבר עוררנו בעבר על חומר הלימוד במקומות שאין רוח חכמים נוחה מהם, ואנו שבים ומעוררים שהמקום היחידי שאפשר וראוי לחנך בו בנות ישראל הוא במסגרות בית יעקב בלבד

    This letter allows far more latitude in women's education than the speakers at this conference were purportedly willing to give.


    Which is exactly the problem above.

    3. Read the comments from the article R. Slifkin links to. The Chareidim on Yeshiva World more or less agree with the readership here.

    Which is to say that anyone open enough to have access to the internet can see that the emperor has no clothes. Why then are these others given any decision making or even advisory authority to begin with.

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    Replies
    1. If they see that the emperor has no clothes then why do they continue to mindlessly follow him? The one thing the haredi world is best at is indoctrinating that their derech is the only correct one and all others, including dl, are compromises or plain kefira. I once met a semi observant ex-haredi guy who voted for utj in the elections because they were the only ones "protecting the Torah". I asked him why he didn't vote for Bayit Yehudi and he said that they aren't the real deal. Even many ex-haredim can't come to accept the legitimacy of non-haredi Judaism! I think this is a failure on the part of the dl world (in israel at least) for failing to reach out to haredim and ex-haredim. This is a massive lost opportunity and failure.

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    2. Make believe is okay as long as it suits the narrative and then it becomes the truth.

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  34. Post Chareidi WomanDecember 8, 2015 at 3:54 PM

    Does this modern extremist sect called Chareidism have anything to do with Galus Yishmael?
    I remember hearing once (albeit in Sem) that Jews absorb some of the middos of the culture of their exile.

    ReplyDelete

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