Tuesday, July 9, 2013

Guest Post: Factual Corrections

Guest Post by Eli Duker

Rav Feldman's speech in Baltimore as transcribed here by R. Yaakov Menken, has several factual errors that I feel need to be addressed. I must add a disclaimer that I am only going on what was written; I do not know what words Rav Feldman actually used.

1. He cites Rav Eliezer Melamed, Rosh Yeshiva of Har Bracha, as claiming that 20% of Hesder students cease religious observance during their army service. But Rav Melamed never said such a thing. What he actually said both here and here is that 20% (or more) of those who go through the Religious Zionist educational system through high school abandon religious observance. Rav Melamed also claims that the number of those who grew up in "Torani" communities and later cease observance is around 5%. Nowhere does he give numbers about Hesder students. A new survey of Hesder alumni had 7% of respondents describe themselves in categories other than "Dati" (Hiloni, Masorati, Non-Orthodox, non-denominational); however, this was a survey of Facebook respondents and hence non-scientific. Nonetheless, there is no evidence for Rav Feldman's rather staggering claim.

2. A second claim Rav Feldman makes is that "the Religious Zionist party" went from thirteen seats at the time of his moving to Israel to five today, and claims that "this is in no small part due to the secularization of their youth in the army." I don't know when Rav Feldman moved to Israel. At no point did the Mafdal have 13 seats. But the fact is that in the current Knesset, the Bayit HaYehudi party has twelve seats – up from seven seats in the previous Knesset (three Bayit HaYehudi/ Mafdal; four Ichud HaLeumi). It is strange that in a speech where R' Feldman is extremely critical of Naftali Bennett he seems to be unaware of Bennett's great political achievement. Moreover, it is incorrect to gauge the religiosity of the Religious Zionist population by the size of the Mafdal, and this is because of several factors:
a) In the years prior to Bennett's catapult of the Bayit HaYehudi, there was generally a right-wing party in addition to the Mafdal which competed for votes of the Religious Zionist population.
b) Religious Zionists have always been represented in other parties, and many never considered themselves obligated to vote for a sectoral party. This is a matter of political strategy and not an indication of secularization. The Likud, whose MKs are elected in primaries, have 4 Religious Zionist MKs out of a total of 20 (without Yisrael Beiteinu) – this is due in part to the large number of religious Likud members, and it is safe to assume that there are a large number of religious Likud voters.
c) There are many Sephardim who identify with religious Zionism and who made up a huge block of Mafdal voters before 1977, if not 1984, and now vote Shas due to the charisma and overall presence and authority of Rav Ovadiah.
All this being said, I fail to see how secularization in the army has drastically weakened Religious Zionist political strength.

3. Out of the seven indicted ministers to whom Rav Feldman points to prove the ethical bankruptcy of any non-Haredi educational system and weltanschauung, two are haredi ministers from Shas!

4. What I found most disturbing was the way the famous meeting between the Chazon Ish and Ben Gurion was related to this audience. R. Yaakov Menken claims that R. Feldman said that "Ben-Gurion went to visit the Chazon Ish to persuade him that religious Jews should be drafted into the Army. Ben-Gurion said that the state could not survive without it. The Chazon Ish countered that the Torah could not survive with it."

In fact, the Chazon Ish never said that it is forbidden to serve in the army, and the notion that he would have told Ben Gurion that the Torah could not survive if "religious Jews" were to serve in the army is patently ridiculous. Ben Gurion was quite ambivalent about his decision to exempt less than 400 Yeshiva students, and the notion that he would have held a discussion with the Chazon Ish about exempting the entire religious population from army service is also ridiculous. Moreover, "Peer Hador" – clearly a Haredi work – claims that the Chazon Ish was opposed to army exemptions being given to anyone who is not in Yeshiva, and quotes the Chazon Ish as saying that anyone took a Yeshiva deferment who isn't learning full time has the status of a rodef.

What is more disturbing, however is that there isn't a single account of the meeting, whether Haredi or not, that claims that the issue of the men's draft was ever brought up. Ben Gurion requested the meeting in the context of the struggle of the Haredi community against mandatory National Service for religious girls who were exempt from army service. But that issue wasn't brought up by either side either. Only the fundamental issue of how secular and Haredi Jews can coexist was discussed, without getting into any details regarding any part of the draft. (See Benjamin Brown's "The Hazon Ish", which deals with this episode as thoroughly as one can).

If one studies the surveys mentioned above about the Religious Zionist world and the Hesder system, they may come to the conclusion that there is a risk of secularization if one serves in the army; this may give Rav Feldman enough information to justify his position, albeit from a Haredi perspective. The Haredim as a whole clearly have different priorities than the religious Zionist community, and they aren't willing to risk their way of life in any way for the sake of doing military service. I fail to understand why this approach cannot be justified to Haredi communities without giving faulty information about other Jews and falsifying accounts of Gedolei Yisrael.

32 comments:

  1. It should be clarified that the claim that the vote for the Religious Zionist parties declined over the years, in spite of increasing in the last election, was an supposedly an indication the population of the RZ camp was in decline, presumably due to "secularlization" of hesder students during their army service. Of course, anyone can see that the RZ population has increased enormously over the years and the number of hesder yeshivot has increased (as I understand it) from 10 to 40 since the 1970's with addition of something like 30 "mechinot q'dam tzevaiot" (pre-army religious seminaries where students learn Torah before doing a full 3 years of IDF service).

    It is interesting how the Haredi spokesmen themselves admit openly that their education of their youth is so ineffective and that their belief is so fragile that it will almost certainly thrown out the first time they students encounter people different than themselves!

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  2. 1) I read in an internet comment that R Shach told those who did not learn in Yeshiva to go to the army. Is there a source for this?

    2) R. Zev Leff wrote to Hamodia on 4/10/13("Clarification"):

    "After receiving feedback from one person and rereading the article published in Hamodia (March 20, page A15), I realized that I inadvertently gave the wrong impression as to what the Chazon Ish said. The Chazon Ish did NOT direct those who are not learning full time to enlist in the army. Rather, he said that if one who is not learning full time takes advantage of the p’tur (exemption) from the army, it is as if he is a rodef of the yeshivah world in Eretz Yisrael, for he endangers the whole essence of the p’tur. What, in fact, such a person should actually do rather than falsely use the p’tur was not delineated in the source (see Pe’er Hador, vol. 4, p. 260, top)."

    http://hamodia.com/letters/clarification-2/

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  3. Another correction. Chazon Ish was not the only gadol who influenced the state to make draft exemptions for yeshiva students. Rav Herzog pushed very hard for the exemption, and was likely the one who had the most influence on the gvt to allow for it. See Chaim Herzog's intro to Techuka Leiyasrael al pi Hatorah, and here as well http://www.archives.gov.il/NR/exeres/4A6312F2-5B57-477B-957A-B836381EF47F,frameless.htm

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  4. "If one studies the surveys mentioned above about the Religious Zionist world and the Hesder system..."

    There are no surveys. R. Melamed was asked in the second link where he got his information from, and he admitted he had no hard data. Moreover, there is also no hard data about the Charedi dropout rate, rendering irrelvant any discussion about the NRP dropout rate. R. Feldman doesnt know about "at risk youth"? For all we know, the drop out rate from non-NRP homes as compared to NRP homes is the same or more. So, not only is R. Feldman's quote erroneous, but he bottoms it upon information that is itself groundless.

    As for the Facebook survey - come on. "Not scientific" is an understatement. Any computer-based poll can safely be thrown straight into the garbage. Look at the Ynet computer poll of "greatest Israelis ever" for examples of the trash such polls can produce.

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  5. On the Knesset numbers: Six members of Likud-Beiteinu are religious (only one is officially Yisrael Beitneinu). There are three religious members of Yesh Atid and one of HaTenuah. Add that to eleven of Bayit Yehudi (one of the twelve isn't religious) and you have twenty-one Dati Leumi Knesset members. (If Dov Lipman is included.) Shas (almost all of whose voters are not charedi) and UTJ have eighteen combined. This is in addition to the other valid points raised here.

    The actual numbers, by the way, is about 22% of the Jewish population Dati, broken down 15% Dati Leumi and 7% charedi.

    A much better question is why, if charedi families can have something between six and twelve kids, their representation in the Knesset has not gone up *at all* in 65 years- and they have none of the reasons the DL community has listed here. The only ones I can think of is charedim not following daas torah and voting for another party (in which case we may wonder how "charedi" they really are) or not voting at all- Neturei Karta, etc.

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  6. This is a little off topic but someone (Rabbi Alderstein?) needs to tap Rabbi Shafran on the shoulder. I just read his last piece posted on cross currents (about brachot) and he clearly does not have a clue how to write for a larger non Hareidi audience (or couldnt care less what people think of Hareidim). He is of course not the only CC poster with that problem.

    Cross Currents stated goal is: "Through reading Cross-Currents, we hope that you will become aware of diverse views representing a traditional Jewish perspective. Any impressions you may have had of the Orthodox as being monolithic or humorless should rapidly be dispelled; we’ll see about the other stereotypes as we go. By hearing about Orthodoxy from the Orthodox, it is our hope that you will — if not a member of our community — develop a more balanced and nuanced perspective than that which you find in the general and Jewish media."

    Jonathan Rosenbloom, Eytan Kobre, Rabbi Menken, and Rabbi Shafran either need to go back to the well, Rabbi Alderstein needs to pack his bags, or the blog should change its goal and name to something like "Strong Head-On Currents"

    Of course I cant post this there because while:
    "Like most journals in blog format, editorial control is extremely loose, and writers are free to disagree and debate"
    Comments are closed.

    I will let you find the many cringe worthy moments in Rabbi Shafran's writing

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  7. Moshe Dick says:

    The commentators have abundantly proven that Rav Feldman's assertions are totally false. Rav Melamed never said what he intimates (pointedly, Rav Feldman ignores the assertion by Rav Melamed that ,amongst the chareidim, there is a 20% dropout too).He totally misrepresents the political situation on Israel and makes more mistakes. That is par for the course. What is more bothersome is my suspicion that Rav Feldman knew exactly that his words were faulty and still went ahead with his speech- because he was sure that his chareidi audience would not question his assertions. And this is why many ignore the so-called gedolim- because they are as political as others and can misrepresent(lie?) with the best of them . Truth is the victim.

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  8. The fact that the chazon ish held that someone who does not learn but avoids the draft is a rodef was confirmed to me personally by a talmid of the chazon ish - none other than Rabbi Tanenbaum (the father) the director of va'ad hayeshivos (they are the ones who are in charge of the army deferments)!

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  9. If it were in fact possible to confirm beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Chazon Ish did indeed consider learning draft avoiders as a rodef it would make an interesting test case. I am sure at the end of the day all that matters is what the current gedolim say and nothing else - not even what previous genrations of gedolim say. Previous generations can be used to prove a point but not to disprove a point because - oovdah - today's gedolim dont hold that way and who are we to disagree no matter who we bring to the debate from previous generations ("you think R'Gadol Yisroel doesnt know what the Chazon Ish held?"). Such is the power of Daas Torah - it trumps neskatenu hadoros.

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  10. What are mere facts in the face of meta-truth? This was the theme of Rabbi Schwab's shocking essay exhorting us "to put a veil over the human failings of its elders and glorify all the rest which is great and beautiful," and it remains the mantra of the haredi world. Truth, RIP.

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  11. Only the fundamental issue of how secular and Haredi Jews can coexist was discussed, without getting into any details regarding any part of the draft. (See Benjamin Brown's "The Hazon Ish", which deals with this episode as thoroughly as one can).
    When I read this chapter in Brown's book, I couldn't help but think about how insightful Ben-Gurion was. He essentially predicted, over sixty years ago, the tremendous strife happening today, and tried to head it off; and this when the Chareidi community was miniscule. It is unfortunate that the Chazon Ish was unwilling to enter into any dialoge whatsoever, simply discounting the secular Israelis with his famous mashal about the loaded camel/wagon. Did the Chazon Ish truly think that Ben Gurion would give in to the Chareidim completely then and there? We are left to deal with the issue painfully today, insead of it being nipped in the bud.
    Aharon Haber: You're right about the unusually low quality of Shafran's latest post. Besides for his bizarre idea for "unifying" Jews (see there), and his usual off-putting cynicism and condescending attitude, he says this choice line: "Brachos, after all, don’t touch upon issues like feminism (they are – well, almost all – gender-neutral) or insularity (they are recited on both cholent and crêpes Suzette)." (Read more: http://www.cross-currents.com#ixzz2Ye14nXQY
    Under Creative Commons License: Attribution)
    In fact, every single bracha refers to God as a male. When was the last time you said "Brucha At Hashem"? In regards to insularity, I'm assuming Shafran says the Bracha "Asher Bachar Banu Mikal Ha'amim" at least once a day. Not to mention what one is supposed to say when one sees a non-Jewish cemetery.

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  12. I have stopped reading all CC editorials for which comments are closed

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  13. When I read this chapter in Brown's book, I couldn't help but think about how insightful Ben-Gurion was. He essentially predicted, over sixty years ago, the tremendous strife happening today, and tried to head it off;

    This is a falsehood. Ben Gurion allowed the deferments precisely because he believed that Hareidism would soon disappear.

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  14. We can dispute percentages, but in general, it goes without saying that subjecting young boys to secular environment results in certain degree of secularization. This is probably not the case in Nahal Haredi units with religious commanders and time for Torah study. But if hesder students serve in regular units they are influenced by non-religious or even anti-religious environment. For example, there were highly publicized cases when commanders were trying to compel religious soldiers to listen female singing. There will be even a bigger issue with female soldiers admitted to combat units, where most hesder students chose to serve.

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  15. "This is a falsehood. Ben Gurion allowed the deferments precisely because he believed that Hareidism would soon disappear."

    You can't accuse someone of lying because of what you believe BG believed.

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  16. Lazar,

    In general I am guessing you have no personal knowledge of what Hesder boys encounter one way or another.

    And who else is tired of the army-avoider sympathizers bringing up the same tedious kol isha story. Is this story still valid a year from now? next decade? Even if some people had found it significant when it happened doesnt its uniqueness at some point prove the exact opposite of what people bring it to prove?

    Saying that Hareidim are afraid that serving in the army will influence their boys is at least something to discuss but when it is accompanied by the same eye rolling garbage it is not even satisfying.

    Oh no here come the viber! Better to let other people deal with it. Some much safer here in the beis medrash.


    So tired ....

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  17. Moshe Dick says:

    The case for the chareidim is getting to threadbare that one wonders if they realize how insincere they sound. To assert- as Lazar does- that commanders 'compelled" religious soldiers to listen to female singing- shows the absurdity of it all. It was one incident and no one was compelled. But- as Haber writes- it is a tired, old, discredited argument. And what happens to all the hundreds and thousands of religious jews in the US and elsewhere that go out to work every day, in touch with the secualr world, what shoud we do then? go live underground? The chareidi arguments are becoming increasingly hysterical and false.

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  18. Lazer, it goes both ways. Subjecting people to secular environments, even if they were raised "modern" is a risk, but so is raising people "insular" when they are exposed to anything different.

    You suggest secularization is likely not the case in the more insular Nahal Haredi. I asked a Haredi Israeli raised friend of mine who did Nahal Haredi if the protestations of Haredi leaders that even Nahal Haredi is not encouraged b/c so many go off the derech is true. He told me it is true that many do indeed greatly lower than religious observance even in Nahal Haredi. I asked why. He told me that those raised in the Haredi environment have an insular isolated vision of yahadut, and when they have to do patrols on Shabbos or rely on other halachic parameters where pikuach hanefesh is involved (and he emphasized all their moreh halacha on these issues in nahal haredi are themselves haredi, as they don't trust the tzioni halacha) they lose thier feeling for shabbos and their observance often lessens or even goes away.

    (I wonder to what extant other factors also play a role for many in Nahal Haredi. My friend rarely went home for shabbos to his haredi community for 3 years as they would ostracize him, and the few times he did go home, he his his gun in his suit bag to remain inconspicous).

    And even if you want to send modern raised "tzioni" boys to Nahal Haredi so they will have less secular exposure, where do you draw the line? Can they go to Bar Ilan? A masters program? Work? Or must everyone remain insulated forever, insulated communities, army units, schools, jobs, and split into two nations, the chiloni and the frum? And we have seen the negative effects isolation has, in both the Haredi and settler communities.

    There are no easy answers or perfect solutions, and Nahal Haredi is a nice alternative, but it is not a panacea to the challenges of a young religious soldier, and even for those for whom it is, it only delays the challenge (and no length of time is a guarantee, there are those who did 25 + years of kollel + wife and kids before heading out to college or work and still had their level of observance minimized to substandard levels, though admittedly the later the exposure, the more likely one can weather it), or guarantees for one who wants to avoid it lifelong that they will remain insular.

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  19. This last posting about the shortcomings of Nahal Haredi was quite enlightening. Although I live in a Relgious Zionist environment where everyone served in the IDF and I see a high level of religious observance, appreciation for Shabbat (which I think working people appreciate more than kollel people do), learning Torah, etc. we conclude that religious identity seems to be much more oomplex than merely insulating one's self from outside influences. The Haredi spokesmen all say flatout that any contact at all with people outside their group will destroy their Judaism, including teaching a couple of hours of math per week.
    Since the thing that made the modern Haredi community possible was the creation of the welfare state after World War II, and since this welfare state is facing inevitable cutbacks all around the world, then this perfect isolation simply can no longer be maintained, so their community is facing collapse. Rav Natan Lopes Cardozo has been predicating a MAJOR crisis facing religious youth for years, and I didn't unerstand what he was talking about until this recent crisis came up and when I see the hysterial reaction of a lot of the Haredi leadership, I now understand thay they essentially agree with him and fear a major crisis. It is quite a change from the triumphalist talk ("it is inevitable that we are going to take over because of our higher birth rate") we have heard from some quarters in recent years.

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  20. Y. Ben-David said, "The Haredi spokesmen all say flatout that any contact at all with people outside their group will destroy their Judaism, including teaching a couple of hours of math per week."

    As I commented before, I don't think it's so much learning math and Hebrew (boys learn math, Hebrew, even nature topics until they enter yeshiva katanah at bar mitzvah age, and the girls learn even after that until they finish high school.) It's more that charedim want to keep the chinuch independent.

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  21. See Mishpacha, June 12 issue, page 63, there is a direct quote from Rabbi Eliezer Melamed that 20% of Hesder members do not remain religious.

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  22. Mike Rose, what does it say? Did Mishpacha interview R Melamed?

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  23. Yehuda P-
    Independent or not, they receive taxpayers funds for their schools, unlike in the US. Why shouldn't the taxpayer have any say in what his money is used for? How is adding an hour a day for secular studies going to make them all chuck religious observance?

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  24. Moshe Dick says
    Lazar and Ploni's comments are illuminating. What they essentially advocate- and this is the chareidi line- that any exposure to the outside world (even in israel, mind you!), is a death blow to all chareidi jews and they will all throw off their Judaism when leaving the walls of the yeshiva. It makes one wonder hoe the jewish people survived for over three thousand years. It makes one wonder how Jews, all over the globe and over a span of many centuries, survived and contineud to be good jews. The chareidi argument is a false argument, because jews have lived and come into contact with the otuside world for three thousand years and ,thank G-d, survived pretty well! Sure, there were losses to all kind of influences (including Reform and secularism) but we survived and ultimately made a decent accomodation with outside influences. In the rest of the world, the majority of jews interact withb the outside world on a daily basis and lives with it pretty successfully.If not for the generous welfare state in Israel and the political influence of the chareidi parties, they would have to deal with that a long time ago. For the chareidi world in Israel, chickens have indeed come to roost.

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  25. "Since the thing that made the modern Haredi community possible was the creation of the welfare state after World War II"

    And multiculturalism.

    Funny, violating Shabbat to be in Hatzalah raises no issues in the US.

    Yehuda: I think many boys learn none at all.

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  26. Many (here and elsewhere) have commented on the supposed 20% statistic. But it is the next line in the transcription that truly upsets me: "Those who return to Yeshiva are weakened in their commitment to Torah."

    Those who return to Yeshiva are weakened? "Those who return to Yeshiva" include thousands of wonderfully devoted, committed, noble, brave (dare I say saintly?) student scholar/soliders in Hesder yeshivot who incorporated front-line Israeli army service during their years of yeshiva study and emerged strengthened in their passionate devotion to Torah, Am Yisrael, and Eretz Yisrael. Many Hesder boys serve (and risk their lives) in elite Israeli military units, and *also* commit their lives to serving as leaders in chinuch and Torah. From personal experience, the many boys I got to know in the hesder yeshiva I attended (as an American visitor) years ago did not return "weakened" from the battlefields in Lebanon -- they returned serious and mature, with holy determination, and were inspiring to me. The same goes for my hesder nephew who fought bravely in Gaza, and has chosen chinuch as his full-time career.

    "Those who return to Yeshiva are weakened in their commitment to Torah"?? Were Rav Ya'akov Meidan and Rav Yoel Bin Nun shlit"a weakened in their commitment to Torah? Are their devoted students?

    Hopefully I misread those words, or perhaps they were misquoted in the transcription, because it sounds like a terribly unkind and undeserved insult. How can such a sweeping, inaccurate, negative generalization about a population that so selflessly devotes itself to the security of Israel *and* to Torah be defended?

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  27. Aharon Haber,
    Being tired of learning the news does not make an argument.
    What I referred to was not just a single incident.
    The Chief of Staff was recommended to bar soldiers from leaving official army events over women's singing: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/idf-must-bar-soldiers-from-leaving-events-over-women-s-singing-officer-says-1.397170
    I believe I read elsewhere Gantz actually had made this rule official, but I don't have the source at this moment.

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  28. Moshe Dick,
    You should read news. Gantz reportedly ruled there will be no exceptions in official ceremonies, i.e. soldiers can be excused where female soldiers are singing:

    http://www.jpost.com/Defense/IDF-Religious-soldiers-cannot-leave-ceremonies

    It does requires an intellectually honesty to admit that the above is a clear example of anti-religious coercion-- there is no any military neccesity to force a soldier to listen to someone singing.

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  29. Y. Ben David said,"How is adding an hour a day for secular studies going to make them all chuck religious observance?"
    The ironic thing is that many will have to pay later, literally and figuratively, for the lack of English or math skills. A charedi friend of mine is 27, and wanted to know of some way to learn English. He didn't want to have to spend 2,400 NIS for a course in English.

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  30. Lazar,

    So you posted two news stories saying roughly the same thing from 2011 (in response to Moshe Dick) and Jan 2012. My point still stands that if this were a problem we would probably still be hearing about it. I haven't and digging up old news doesn't change that. I actually would be curious to know whether 1. this has happened again. 2. whether commanders are now more sensitive to this issue 3. whether the religious soldiers are using any of the halachic/practical solutions to the problem.

    But the more important point is that it is a weak (and old) example of forcing religious soldiers to conform to army rules against their religion. It just happened to get a lot of press a long time ago and you and others still cant let go. I assume it is precisely because it is "relatively minor" issue that it is used by Hareidim to divide their views from Dati Leumi (though of course all Dati Leumi Rabbis hold Kol Isha is assur). I am sure there are much much much more serious halachic problems encountered by Hesder students that they deal with all the time. The difference is that (the vast majority of) Hesder students and the Hesder rabbinic leaders view army service as a obligation/responsibility/privilege/mitzvah. They are not looking for a showstopping reason to excuse draft dodging. There may be issues where the army and Rabbonim dont see eye to eye but accommodation will be found. That is why so far the system has worked. I hope it continues to.

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  31. I have a question for R. Duker (If he is a bayit yehudi supporter) or any other "Rational" Bayit Yehudi supporter.:
    Forget the army issue for a minute.
    1) Yesh Atid openly supports gay marriage, reform and conservative taking power on par with orthodoxy and Shabbat buses and uprooting settlements.
    How does a religious, nationalistic party make a bond that is airtight with such a party? We are taught that the mabul came because of sexual immorality.
    The Reform and conservative movements(not individuals) represent heresy in its truest form. Uprooting settlements is against bayit yehudi's principles. How can they partner with yesh atid. Not only are they partnering on a national level they are partnering on a local level. That means Bayit yehudi is giving its stamp of approval to Yesh Atid and its policies and helping to strenghten it.
    Now back to the army issue: The draft law doesnt say if you dont learn you go to the army. Its says everybody goes to the army. 2nd-You want equal service, hesder should do 3 years too. Why is their blood any redder than haredi blood?
    3rd-Is the state going after all the secular draft dodgers whose number are equal to or surpass hareidi deferments?
    4-Piron(minister of education) says-I want a new israeli jew-one that is zionist. He doesnt say do your part and keep your beliefs.He wants to change the charedi jew.
    Mainstream secular journalists are openly saying that this army equality is the 1st step to destroying the hareidi jew.
    How are the hareidim supposed to act? Say thank you for trying to destroy us? Everybody knows that Yeshi atid doesnt want just equal service. They want Haredim to stop listening to their rabbis and change their lifestyles. Thats why the haredi world is rejecting it. The haredi world has been going through change over the last good # of years. Hareidi Colleges and work trainign programs have sprung up all over israel. This latest government has now set that back because teh previous schools had rabbinic support. Now they are taking it away.

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