Thursday, September 8, 2011

Bet Shemesh Update (UPDATED)

Here are some important updates to yesterday's post about Terrorism in Bet Shemesh. First, a mailing from Rabbi Dov Lipman:

Many people saw the scary videos from Tuesday and question whether the police take action.  While we were sleeping late morning, the professional detectives of the Bet Shemesh police station who want to protect the community as best they can (many grew up in the city) spent a few hours making arrests.  Those whose girls had to walk through those crowds can also reassure their daughters that the police arrested people.  This is not to say that they won't be out in the streets again and it may mean that even more come out today but the police do deserve credit for taking action.

Thank you to everyone who came to Orot Banot yesterday to help escort the girls home and to their bus stops.  The police specifically asked that we continue to do so and expressed their thanks because it does help them as well.  Please make every effort to come today at 12:50p.m. and we will daven mincha right after we know that every girl has gone safely.  Those who were posted throughout Herzog and at the kikar yesterday are asked to do the same today.  Thank you in advance for your help and let's hope today passes quietly.  Dov

Second, a mailing from a moderate-charedi shul in Ramat Bet Shemesh Aleph, Beis Tefilla, to its members:

Subject: [btya-members] Men - please give half an hour to protect Orot girls from abuse - and make a Kiddush Hashem

I have been asked by someone from Orot to put together a group of at least 10 men to be outside Orot girls' school tomorrow at 12:50 pm. The presence is intended to deter anyone from starting up with the girls. It will be a peaceful gathering, with no intention to interact directly with any "protestors."

There would be added Kiddush HaShem value in at least some of the participants being of chareidi appearance. (You can get dressed up for the occasion if you like :-)

If you can make it, please let me know. Rides may be available. If you need mincha gedola, it is planned there for about 1:15 pm.

Third, a later mailing from Rabbi Lipman:

God is proud of Am Yisrael.  A number of chareidi men and women came to Orot Banot to show support for the right of the girls to walk home safely today including from Beis Tefila and Chabad, and some yeshiva bochurim came from a yeshiva in Nachala Umenucha.  This demonstrated incredible achdus and will serve as a merit for the community in the month of Elul.  To remind everyone - this is not about anti-chareidi
and no one has expressed such sentiments in this saga.  It is about the simply right for parents to know that their children can go to and from school safely and that we can livein a city in total harmony even if we have different ways that we live our lives.  This is why I have only used the word "extremist" in my posts about the people harassing
the girls and never chareidim.

I am happy report to that the police did not allow the extremists onto the sidewalk today so the girls had clear passage to their bus stop. They even arrested the one extremist who insisted on remaining on the side walk.  As a result of our public pressure campaign and contact with government officials which included videos of what happened on Tuesday, the police presence today was strong and effective.

I want to call to all chareidim who support Beit Shemesh and RBS as being a city for all Jews and we can live together and respect one another to please be in touch with me.  I will put you in touch with a group of Chareidim which is forming to join the rest of the city's populations in working to create such a city.

May we continue to hear only good news.  Dov Lipman


  1. What times is help needed on Friday at Orot?

  2. Now that Bais Tefillah (American haredi shul in Ramat Beit Shemesh) has gotten involved, maybe the Gra shul in RBS under the leadership of Rav Elimelech Kornfeld will get involved to defend against the child abusers? It is high time that American haredim who pride themselves on maintaining "normalcy" not allow themselves to be dragged down the path of brainlessness and fanaticism.

  3. From today's Haaretz article:

    "Abutboul, who has been abroad (for a meeting between Shas members and Palestinians in the framework of the Geneva peace initiative ), said that the girls had to be kept at a distance to prevent a "blood bath," since the neighborhoods where the extremists live are like "Arab villages" that police are afraid to enter."

    Mayor Aboutboul should stop licking up to the Palestinians and start protecting Jews from child-abuse in Beit Shemesh.

  4. Beit Shemesh mayor Moshe Abutbul is obviously a complete incompetent whose removal from office is now urgent. If he can not protect young girls from child abuse going on in broad daylight then he is actually much worse than merely incompetent. He is a blithering idiot.

  5. I'd be interested in knowing how many Chareidim actually showed up.
    I'm also impressed with the police. An open confrontation at the site of the demonstration could have gotten messy. Quiet arrests are a much better idea.

  6. These child abusers are unlikely to stop given their insane mindset unless they suffer severe physical or financial injury. And this just might happen since it seems that some parents are being pushed to their emotional limits.

  7. These maniacs understand only one language.

  8. Maybe get some of the Cops who evacuated Migron. They sure know how to deal with crowds.

  9. You know, I watched that video [or at least most of it] and even though I detest the charedi way of life, I saw nothing wrong with what they did. I'm a labor attorney, and am used to strikes and pickets a LOT more confrontational than this, and are yet still 100% legal.

    These Charedim - they were all on the sidewalk. That is public property, is it not? Please correct me if I'm wrong, maybe in Israel its different. That means they have a right to be there. And I saw no evidence of blocking ingress or egress. The fact that the people passing the protessters are little girls and thus prone to tears does not infringe the rights of the public to shout out things like shiksa or perutza, no matter how disgusting we think it.

    I am not trying to be contrarian here. From what I've read the school does have the right to be there, but the charedim have the right to protest. You cant take that away from them. Agav, they seemed more like a bunch of listless losers who will evnetually go away, rather than sincere representatives of a larger group whose protest on principle will not flag.

    About what I saw of Rabbi Dov Lipman's actions, I will not comment.

  10. PS - I didnt see any spitting in anyone's face. Obviously if that happened, that IS illegal.

  11. DF "but the charedim have the right to protest. You cant take that away from them."

    Says who? It might be technically "legal" but it doesn't make it right (especially according to Jewish law).
    We should look at things that are correct and according to G-D and the benefit of the Jewish nation.
    Now their are legitimate protests and illegitimate one's. This is an illegitimate protest and completely wrong. It is agains't Halacha and the fact that they are harassing our people, our girls makes them deserve at the very least a strong beat down. (combine this with other actions eventually possibly even death to them for them once we establish proper Jewish courts according to Halacha).

  12. Photos and video from Thursday's protest, including my face to face dialog with a zealot can be found here at the Mystical Paths blog.

    Thanks to R. Slifkin for helping get the word out.

  13. DF,

    Legal? Perhaps. But, morally speaking it is an extremely grotesque and harmful type of harassment of little girls.

    Why would anyone want to fight for their "right" to engage
    in such behavior?

  14. ...the rights of the public to shout out things like shiksa or perutza, no matter how disgusting we think it.

    Questions to DF the lawyer:

    Would someone be allowed (in the USA) to shout out "Nig*r" or "K*ke" or "Sp*k" or other such things in all States in the USA?

    Are there any Federal or State laws protecting someone from public harrassment of any kind?

    Are there any Federal or State laws protecting children from public harrassment of any kind?

    Repeatedly showing up in front of a child's school to verbally harass a child, even if it IS on public property, is legal?

    And even if it is not CRIMINAL, can measures be taken in civil court?

    Also, although there is a Contitutional right to assembly, are there not State, City, and Local laws which often require assemblies to get permits to assemble at certain locations, etc.?

    Anyway, legally speaking, the bottom line is that Israel is not the USA - sometimes for better and sometimes for worse. Legally there are more restrictions on freedom in Israel and they do not follow the US Constitution even while they are a democratic country.

  15. Although I don't mean this in a personal way, I am frankly appalled by what DF said. Maybe he is right, that what these hooligans is doing is "legal", after all the law doesn't attempt to enforce the difference between "right and wrong", but only "legal and illegal". What David HaMelech did in the Batsheva incident was "legal" but the Prophet denounced it in the harshest terms and it ended up practically destroying David. The problem is twisting the law for one's own personal advantage.
    The Torah tells us to go beyond the law, it demands a higher standard of conduct. Things like not bearing a grudge or getting vengeance against someone who has wronged you. I personally find these very difficult to live up to sometimes, but this is what we are supposed to do.
    Regarding the little girls, don't these hooligans remember the injunction that embarrassing or humiliating someone so that he blushes is considered to be morally like "bloodshed"? There is a story about the spiritual leader of the anti-Zionist Haredim in the 1920's, Rav Yosef Haim Sonnenfeld (I am sure these hooligans would say they revere him). As I recall it, he and his assistant were walking down the street and they encountered a procession kids from a Left-wing youth movement (e.g. HaShomer HaTzair). His assistant tried to direct the Rav down a side street but he wouldn't follow. As the kids passed, the assistant saw the Rav saying something in a low voice. When asked what he was saying he said that these were Jewish children and he was giving them a blessing. That is they way we should act.
    If these hooligans want to make a demonstration they can go to city hall and do it, but that would be as much "fun" and wouldn't alleviate the boredom they suffer from.

  16. The policy of the Israeli government towards this terrorism has been appeasement.

    Look at what's become everyday life for these people:

    Fanatics riot, and no arrests are made. Hundreds involved. The police "can't find" the one person they say might have committed a crime. Shops trashed. Vandalism at factories. Assault with deadly weapons (stones) is so common it doesn't even make the news.

    Girls beaten for talking to boys or wearing the wrong color clothes. Grandmothers spat on for refusing to go to the back of the bus. Gender segregation and increasingly insane "modesty" standards demonstrably worse than Iran or Saudi Arabia enforced by threats and thugs.

    Little children assaulted by angry mobs for the crime of going to school.

    And all of this comes from people who don't go to real school, don't work at real jobs and refuse to defend their country. Every mouthful of food and every day they breathe the free air is because of the hard work and courage of better women and men than they.

    And what does the government do?


    It lets the terrorists run free, piously mouths false equivalences and allows good people to suffer in order to coddle evil-doers.

    You do not stop terrorism by appeasing and ignoring terrorists let alone subsidizing their parasitic lifestyle.

    Cut off their subsidies. Make them join the IDF and the real economy. Jail the violent ones and for the love of Pete stop shoveling money into their pockets.

    The Tallitban is probably the greatest existential threat to Israel as a viable modern nation. It must be stopped

  17. DF, intimidation, unlawful restraint, making intimidating threats, trespass, blocking access and disturbing the peace are all crimes.

    So is terrorism.

    Using illegal force or the threat of it to cause political change in a segment of the population is quite literally the textbook definition of terrorism.

  18. 1. i can't speak for DF, but if what the chreidim are doing is legal, it justifies the police inactivity on legal grounds, even if the chareidim are wrong on moral grounds.

    at a hafganah in shaarei chesed-rechavia some years ago, the police officer was shouting at the protesters to move back until someone shouted back 'i'm a lawyer, and such and such is legal for the protesters to do, code xyz123....' The officer immediately toned down. (i wasn't there but i heard it that day from someone who was.)

    2. Menachem Lipkin said (on the previous post)... Ironically, now, instead of having a few "pritza" 8 yr olds walk by their apartments, today there were dozens of adult women, men, dogs and police roaming in front of their buildings. This historically, has been one of our best weapons; showing them that if they don't leave us alone we'll bring to their doorstep the very thing they are most "terrified" of.

    Historically chareidim don't care about short term religious side effects of their hafganot. That's why they demonstrate for shabbat on shabbat, causing the cops to drive to the hafganot, use walky talkies etc. and other forms of chilul shabbat.

    3. Does anyone know what the extremists themselves claim against the school?

  19. DF said...
    "I'm a labor attorney, and am used to strikes and pickets a LOT more confrontational than this, and are yet still 100% legal."

    As a lawyer [?] you should know. When people strike and picket they are required to obtain a permit and may only picket in a designated area. So I guess you are not the lawyer [?] that arranges the permits for your clients.

    DF said...
    "I saw nothing wrong with what they did." "The fact that the people passing the protessters are little girls and thus prone to tears does not infringe the rights of the public to shout out things like shiksa or perutza, no matter how disgusting we think it."

    Lawyer [?] DF, have your ever heard of "Loitering with intent" or "Menacing" [to make a show of intention to harm] or "Harassment". And most important of all, when these acts are committed against children, there is the crime of "Child abuse" added to the charges.

    Do you think for one minute that the Israeli legal system have not incorporated these basic righteouses into Law. What kind of a government do you think we have in Israel.

    All these human violations are infractions of Israeli Law. What do you think the violators were arrested for, for wearing their hats in the rain?

    DF, Go back to Law School!

  20. Todd- "And what does the government do?


    You make a great point. Now im not pointing fingers and saying all (or everyone) in the government supports these types of things, but it is not far fetched to suggest that the gov. actually wants these types of things happening.
    It WANTS hooligans like these to smear Torah Judaism in order to then step in and say see we are here to stop this, stop "Judaism" in essence. That is what they will say (or better yett, imply).
    The government In general) and the institutions in place want one thing- POWER. Don't EVER forget that.

  21. One last thing don't forget that the government would rather have passive, poor and sometimes stupid (like these idiots) "Haredim" who would make a protest here and there, but would stay in their ghettos, then National Religious Jews who would and do sacrifice themselves for the State and the Land, BUT would and do pose a (political) threat for them. That is what they despise. (Just look at what they did to Rav Kahane ZTL HYD, what they did to Gush Katif,and what they do to the "settlers").

  22. Rabbi Lipman said...
    "I want to call to all chareidim who support Beit Shemesh and RBS as being a city for all Jews and we can live together and respect one another to please be in touch with me. I will put you in touch with a group of Chareidim which is forming to join the rest of the city's populations in working to create such a city."

    When and if this becomes reality, Mashiach will be here in an instant.

    Rabbi Lipman, we can see you are a dear soul, and you wish only the best for all your Jewish brothers and sisters, and you should continue with your high and noble aspirations.

    But the reality of achieving oneness with the charedim is and will remain an illusion, a mistaken idea.

    One dose not make peace with his friends.
    The charedim see all others as half a Jew at best, and a transgressor at worst, and see themselves as being on a higher level.
    If they can not recognize other Jews as being equals, [not just saying it , but really meaning it.] Then what kind of a relationship can we hope for.

    Come to think of it, there are a few ways unity with the charedim can occur.

    1) Dress like them. This will be the most effective tactic. Then they will come into the school and take over the place.

    2) Move to fantasy Land. That is really the only place something like this can happen.

    3) Wait for the coming of Mashiach.

    The latter is the only real hope we have. And my dear fellow Jews, we do not have long to wait.

  23. Regarding the "legal" comment: In the U.S., it is legal for the Ku Klux Klan to rally. The U.S. Supreme Court recently said it was legal for fanatical members of a fundamentalist church to loudly protest at military funerals, shouting to family members that their loved one deserved to die because America condones homosexuality. The comparison here is apt. People might have the right to champion hateful, vile things, but it's the responsibility of the community to push back, to protect its vulnerable members, and to make sure that if one of these fanatics puts one toe over the line -- getting close to a little girl, for example, or spitting in a rabbi's face -- they get hauled right off to jail. That, too, is legal.

  24. Who is the Rabbi of Bais Tefillah? I take it the message went out in his name.

  25. These animals are in for a big surprise. One day they will find out just how frum the national religious really are when someone decides to fulfill the mitzvah to take out rodfim, something these creeps can't imagine fulfilling if their lives depended on it yet they of course consider themselves frummer than frum so they pick on little girls. If they do not desist, one day they will find out who really keeps Torah.

  26. extazy17...

    Son, you have GOT to stop smoking that Mexican rope 'fore you go to work. The Israeli government lets these people determine who can get married to whom. It lets them decide who is a Jew. It gives them all the money they need to engage in a completely parasitic lifestyle. It lets them decide where and how Jews pray at the kotel. It lets them get away with crime and terrorism they want.

    And all you can say is "they just want to let the charedim look bad"?

    That's paranoid thinking, completely out of touch with reality.

    They let them do this because the Tallitban vote in blocs exactly the way their rabbis tell them. That makes their tiny religious parties the kingmakers in any Israeli government which in turn means they get what they want.

    Calling what they do "Torah Judaism" is ridiculous. No strain of today's Judaism looks anything like Biblical Judaism. We've had two thousand years of opinions, fads, cultural change and development of schools of thought. We don't act or think like Jews did back then. Theology, liturgy, language, you name it. We would be completely alien to them. They wouldn't recognize any of us a Jews.

  27. Todd, I think its you who is smoking something (or else you can't read properly and see what I was saying).
    I in no way, shape, nor form support these people and what they do (did). In fact I believe I made it clear that I am completely AGAINS'T Them.

    "The Israeli government lets these people determine who can get married to whom. It lets them decide who is a Jew"

    NO. These people are not the other people. And its not the Israeli government who decides who is a Jew and who is not. It is Jewish LAW. And the chief Rabbinit is not perfect, not at all, but much better then the Israeli government in determining who is a Jew and who is not and who can get married to who'm. (If it was up to the hilonim, you would have gay marriage, and all the other crapp in Israel by now).
    , and hey "SON" I notice your sublime hatred for Judaism and Jewish law. By the way calling religious parties (who'm I don't support because they are weak) the "Taliban" is laughable and out of touch with reality. And I am not, nor do I support the "Haredim", I support and would support True Torah Judaism and that's with the National Religious, more specifically with the Kahanists (and Rabbi's like Rav Bar Haim Shalitta) who aren't afraid to speak the truth.

  28. extazy and Harazieli and y ben david - "right" is not relevant here. Assuredly the charedim have an entirely different concept of "right", in this instance, than you do. The only issue is what is legal.

    Michapeset - there are no laws preventing someone from calling Nig*r or ki*e or sp*c. Frankly I dont know how anyone would even anounciate a word spelled with an asterisk in it.

    Todd - some of the things you mentioned are crimes. Others are not. Know the difference.

    Isaac with the bracket fetish - You are incorrect. You are not required to obtain a permit to picket. The rest of your remarks are likewise mistaken.

    Writer's roadmap - yes, the gist of what you say is 100% right. (The value as to what is hateful and what isnt, of course, is your own personal opinion.) Finally, someone on this thread who thinks with his head. Absolutely the community has the right to push back against the charedim. They can, and should, hold counter rallys to drown out the charedim. And of course they have the right to make sure none of the charedim engage in illegal (as well as repulsive) acts like spitting. Agreed, 100%.

  29. DF-
    "extazy and Harazieli and y ben david - "right" is not relevant here."
    Maybe not to you, but to us it is.
    "Assuredly the charedim have an entirely different concept of "right", in this instance, than you do.", These are not all Haredim, but I know to whom you are referring to- The answer is it doesn't matter what they or anyone else BELIEVES, the question is WHAT IS Correct. Al-queda believes it is doing the correct thing. As do/did the crusaders. SOO WHAT? The only relevent thing is what is the truth, once looking at the source of truth (Torah) the answer is given and it doesn't matter if its muslims,christians or even Haredim opposing it (with claims to follow Judaism), the truth is the truth, the sources are there.
    "The only issue is what is legal."
    - Your correct, but "Legal" is defined- what is according to HALACHA, NOT Israeli law necessarily. And what is a Jew to do when HALACHA and state law (be it israeli, American or anywhere else) goes agains't Jewish law? A JEW HAS TO FOLLOW JEWISH LAW WHICH IS SUPREME FOR THE JEWISH NATION AND THE JEWISH INDIVIDUAL.
    (I changed my SN from extazy17)

  30. "Counter rallies" lol
    Rodfim do not merit such things.

    Just wait. One day these fake chassidim will be sorry they ever yelled at a little girl or even looked at one the wrong way. If you keep pushing and pushing eventually somebody is going to snap.

  31. Kol hakavod to RNS and everyone else who has gone and continue to go to counter-protest and escort the girls. You guys are the ones upholding true Torah values and will ultimately win.

  32. It's not terrorism. Use that word carefully, like antisemitism. Unless you enjoy mindless hysteria.


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